Shitty Alternate History Thread - If only the Romans had AK-47's they would've survived...

[millais]

If you know an alternative for Alternate History Forums, I'd be appreciative.

I suppose he's the cause of one of the most annoying traits I see in history discussion, which is moralizing. Usually when you read/discuss history, you want to do so with a neutral, detached view, unless the moral lesson is relevant. But on Alternate History Forums, it seems like they can't have a discussion of anything Nazi or Confederate related without beating their chests about how much they hate those things. They don't just let the history speak for itself. Makes everything they write tiring to read.

I think all the alternatives I remember might have died by now, because instead of consolidating into one site, there were always like 2-3 English-language forums at a time that spread the banned population too thin to keep all of the sites afloat. The biggest and most viable alternative back in the day was called "Counter Factual.net", but I think the site owner had to shut it down after almost a decade due to career or financial burden. All the other ones were more ephemeral and much smaller, more like in-group clubhouse of a minor social circle rather than a proper big active forum consisting of all types.

Also there was even one alternative site for the handful of people who got banned from AH Forums for being too militant leftist/tankie, presumably by one of the saner mods. This site was called "Between the Waves" (I think the actual URL was that phrase, but in Latin), and it was like some awful clone of RevLeft Forums, except that some of the unbanned lefties and even mods like Calbear were active in that site so it was even more like a secret clubhouse for the lefty types, because the site was mostly invisible to non-members, and registration was by invitation only. It was a very secretive toxic community, because these spiteful lefties would always be talking shit about non-members behind their backs and scheming to get them banned from AH Forums, but word would inevitably leak out and cause a lot of drama. Oh yeah, and I think they tried to do a kind of "ideological paywall" by moving some of their popular content from the AH Forums to this other site, though it probably ended up shooting them in the foot by reducing the traffic to their content overall. I want to say this site ended up dying too, though I have no idea.

These days there's probably no good English language alternative forums. The Wikia site must be pretty big now, but it's not really forum format. There's lots of good non-English forums, but that's not really a solution.

 

[BF 388]

I've called Calbear out in a number of the fandom threads now, where he's kicking people for talking about medieval genocide in fantasy worlds. Yes, fantasy worlds.

Like a true cuck, he won't respond because the comment calling him out gets dozens of upvotes. He is a coward of the highest order.

Really, the best thing you can do is just mute people, and browse the threads you want to read. There are some genuinely A-grade authors on the site, it's just a shame so many have been driven off by a degenerate moderator too busy huffing his own farts.

 

[millais]

I've called Calbear out in a number of the fandom threads now, where he's kicking people for talking about medieval genocide in fantasy worlds. Yes, fantasy worlds.

Like a true cuck, he won't respond because the comment calling him out gets dozens of upvotes. He is a coward of the highest order.

Really, the best thing you can do is just mute people, and browse the threads you want to read. There are some genuinely A-grade authors on the site, it's just a shame so many have been driven off by a degenerate moderator too busy huffing his own farts.

oh shit i forgot all about that whole thing where they kick/ban people for positing morally abhorrent scenarios in a completely hypothetical/fictional context without adequately vociferous condemnation. But they let it slide when one of the pet lefties does it, only normies and rightists get the banhammer for these cases.

Over the years, they banned some relatively high profile, popular, published authors from the site using that very same logic. I think the S M Stirling guy, they banned him because they asked him, in a hypothetical scenario, if he would push a button that would make all the Muslims magically disappear (not genocide or mass murder, just "disappear"), and he said yes, the world would be a safer place if such a button was pressed, so they banned him. Whatever the merits of his writing or books or whatever, the man is like in the top 10 English language authors for the genre, and gee, wouldn't it be great to have him be a member of your forum.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I've called Calbear out in a number of the fandom threads now, where he's kicking people for talking about medieval genocide in fantasy worlds. Yes, fantasy worlds.

Like a true cuck, he won't respond because the comment calling him out gets dozens of upvotes. He is a coward of the highest order.

Really, the best thing you can do is just mute people, and browse the threads you want to read. There are some genuinely A-grade authors on the site, it's just a shame so many have been driven off by a degenerate moderator too busy huffing his own farts.

Ooh, you've reminded me of another pet peeve. Paradox Interactive/the Forums (I'm counting it as Alternate History, since that's the point of their games) won't touch slavery or genocide with a ten foot pole. The pussies on that site claim that they'd get too much bad press if they did, as if anybody but them (and me) gives a shit about history simulators. It's not like genocide/slavery doesn't have a very large effect on the world, either. Things like Europa Universalis IV's colonial play feels empty without robust slave mechanics.

I got banned from Paradox for a while too for accidentally stepping on the genocide thing. We were talking about how shitty the Hearts of Iron IV American fascist path is, and I made the point that the Silver Legions were American nationalists, not Southern nationalists, and would have no use for a Neo-Confederacy. Said that, given various historical evidence (some of it coming from a Leftist academic), they would be as likely to target Appalachian people for eugenics as they would Blacks. Got the banhammer, couldn't access mods for months.

It's weird how Paradox attracts so many Far Right, nationalist types in their fanbase, but is so faggy as a company.

 

[Zaryiu]

Ooh, you've reminded me of another pet peeve. Paradox Interactive/the Forums (I'm counting it as Alternate History, since that's the point of their games) won't touch slavery or genocide with a ten foot pole. The pussies on that site claim that they'd get too much bad press if they did, as if anybody but them (and me) gives a shit about history simulators. It's not like genocide/slavery doesn't have a very large effect on the world, either. Things like Europa Universalis IV's colonial play feels empty without robust slave mechanics.

I got banned from Paradox for a while too for accidentally stepping on the genocide thing. We were talking about how shitty the Hearts of Iron IV American fascist path is, and I made the point that the Silver Legions were American nationalists, not Southern nationalists, and would have no use for a Neo-Confederacy. Said that, given various historical evidence (some of it coming from a Leftist academic), they would be as likely to target Appalachian people for eugenics as they would Blacks. Got the banhammer, couldn't access mods for months.

It's weird how Paradox attracts so many Far Right, nationalist types in their fanbase, but is so faggy as a company.

They are Swedish if I remember correctly

 

[Cedric_Eff]

Call me a sperg, but I actually liked the whole Eyes Turned Skyward alternate timeline where the Space Shuttle never got built and the Apollo spacecrafts gets newer efficient variants along with much more diverse Saturn Rocket series.

 

[ConfederateIrishman]

I'm kind of surprised Alternatehistory.com doesn't have a community watch thread at this point, lord knows it has enough autism for one such as:

1. Ian the Admin revealing he hated Israel but from a left-wing angle
2. The complete meltdown that happened during the 2016 election
3. That time Ian said that minority native American languages were not worth preserving and banned anyone who disagreed with him
4. Any Israel/Palestine thread tbh
5. S. M. Stirling getting banned
6. "Grimdark" timelines where the Confederacy/Rump America/Nazi Germany are even eviler!!1
7. And much, much more!
8. 

 

[Cedric_Eff]

I'm kind of surprised Alternatehistory.com doesn't have a community watch thread at this point, lord knows it has enough autism for one such as:

1. Ian the Admin revealing he hated Israel but from a left-wing angle
2. The complete meltdown that happened during the 2016 election
3. That time Ian said that minority native American languages were not worth preserving and banned anyone who disagreed with him
4. Any Israel/Palestine thread tbh
5. S. M. Stirling getting banned
6. "Grimdark" timelines where the Confederacy/Rump America/Nazi Germany are even eviler!!1
7. And much, much more!
8. 

Speaking of Alternatehistory.com, I like this one where they were discussing the Buran Shuttle.

The Snow Flies: A History of the Soviet Space Shuttle

Report from “Wedel-Schulauer Tageblatt”, Saturday 16th May 1987 “Wreckage Found in Search for Wedel Pilot” “English newspapers are reporting the discovery of wreckage believed to be from a light aircraft in the North Sea 325 km south of the Faroe Isles. The debris found so far is consistent...

www.alternatehistory.com

I like it but it’s somewhat stupid when it assumes that a Space Shuttle Columbia style accident on a Shuttle-type launch vehicle is inevitable.

 

[Teri-Teri]

What if the Polish Hussars never arrived during the 2nd Siege of Vienna?

 

[DK 699]

I'm not a huge fan of alternate history, but I think I should read some more. I've already read Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South (the only AH book I've read) and I do really like Alternate History Hub on Youtube. I think I'll try the S. M. Stirling stuff that @Ponderous Pillock talked about.

Now, if you don't mind, I would love to share my quarter-baked AH idea. Basically it all starts out with how the French promised to send the Finns a token force of French soldiers to help them fight the soviets in the winter war. In our timeline this was far too little and far too late, as the war would end before the date that the French PM said he could have boots on the ground in Finland. In this time line the Finns are able to hold out much longer, because in the late 30s people with superpowers started emerging and Finland integrated these people into their military while the USSR repressed them. Because of the aid of a small team of Finnish superheroes the Mannerheim Line is able to hold out for longer. This allows the French force to eventually arrive in Finland, but it all backfires as not only are neither the French or the superheroes enough to fend of the Soviets, but the French intervention causes the USSR to declare war on the western allies and throw in with the Third Reich. The British then go through with their plans to bomb Baku, but it's not enough to stop the unholy Nazi-Soviet alliance. The Nazis, fascists, Japanese, and soviets then beat the western allies and carve out not only Europe, but the French, Dutch, and British Empires for themselves. Finland is gobbled up by the USSR, while Nazi puppet states are placed all over western Europe. All of the British and French territory in subsharan Africa gets put into the Nazi's sphere of influence, while Italy takes control of the Maghreb, Egypt, and the Levant. In Asia the Soviets take over British India and Afghanistan, though I haven't put much thought into how they rule over these lands. They could be ruled directly or as puppet states. British India could be broken up (whether that be in a way similar to how it was in our timeline or in a way that made sense) or it could just be the Indian SSR. Meanwhile the Japanese Empire takes control of China, French Indochina, Indonesia, Australia, and New Zealand. In the last two countries the Japanese essentially rape a new race of hapas into existence. In the Pacific the Japanese take lots of land, but also allow Germany to reclaim some of the islands they lost in WW1. Finally, in the Americas that one part of South America that France controls as well as the numerous Caribbean islands that are controlled by Europeans (Jamaica, Saint Kitts, Barbados, Grenada) are taken by the Germans. The British Royal family flees to Canada, which essentially becomes the last part of the British Empire that remains.

As the second world war ends a new cold war begins between the communists and the Nazis, instead of the communists and the capitalists. America is caught in the middle of this madness.

 

[millais]

I'm not a huge fan of alternate history, but I think I should read some more. I've already read Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South (the only AH book I've read) and I do really like Alternate History Hub on Youtube. I think I'll try the S. M. Stirling stuff that @Ponderous Pillock talked about.

Now, if you don't mind, I would love to share my quarter-baked AH idea. Basically it all starts out with how the French promised to send the Finns a token force of French soldiers to help them fight the soviets in the winter war. In our timeline this was far too little and far too late, as the war would end before the date that the French PM said he could have boots on the ground in Finland. In this time line the Finns are able to hold out much longer, because in the late 30s people with superpowers started emerging and Finland integrated these people into their military while the USSR repressed them. Because of the aid of a small team of Finnish superheroes the Mannerheim Line is able to hold out for longer. This allows the French force to eventually arrive in Finland, but it all backfires as not only are neither the French or the superheroes enough to fend of the Soviets, but the French intervention causes the USSR to declare war on the western allies and throw in with the Third Reich. The British then go through with their plans to bomb Baku, but it's not enough to stop the unholy Nazi-Soviet alliance. The Nazis, fascists, Japanese, and soviets then beat the western allies and carve out not only Europe, but the French, Dutch, and British Empires for themselves. Finland is gobbled up by the USSR, while Nazi puppet states are placed all over western Europe. All of the British and French territory in subsharan Africa gets put into the Nazi's sphere of influence, while Italy takes control of the Maghreb, Egypt, and the Levant. In Asia the Soviets take over British India and Afghanistan, though I haven't put much thought into how they rule over these lands. They could be ruled directly or as puppet states. British India could be broken up (whether that be in a way similar to how it was in our timeline or in a way that made sense) or it could just be the Indian SSR. Meanwhile the Japanese Empire takes control of China, French Indochina, Indonesia, Australia, and New Zealand. In the last two countries the Japanese essentially rape a new race of hapas into existence. In the Pacific the Japanese take lots of land, but also allow Germany to reclaim some of the islands they lost in WW1. Finally, in the Americas that one part of South America that France controls as well as the numerous Caribbean islands that are controlled by Europeans (Jamaica, Saint Kitts, Barbados, Grenada) are taken by the Germans. The British Royal family flees to Canada, which essentially becomes the last part of the British Empire that remains.

As the second world war ends a new cold war begins between the communists and the Nazis, instead of the communists and the capitalists. America is caught in the middle of this madness.

If you start the WW2 in the middle of Winter War, then Soviets don't have opportunity to fix mistakes of Deep Battle Theory in Finland and Mongolia, and they probably will not be making such a decisive contribution to war effort against Allies.

 

[DK 699]

If you start the WW2 in the middle of Winter War, then Soviets don't have opportunity to fix mistakes of Deep Battle Theory in Finland and Mongolia, and they probably will not be making such a decisive contribution to war effort against Allies.

WW2 is already going on while this is happening; it's just in the 'phony war' or 'Sitskrieg' time. Also while the Soviets wouldn't be as great of a fighting force, they still would have access to lots of manpower and resources. Germany with the oil, coal, steel, and wheat of the USSR would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Forever Train Engineer]

What if the Qing Dynasty got it's shit together after the first Opium War? Like what if it realized that they couldn't stand up against the Western powers, got rid of their corrupt government officials, and began rapid industrialization like Japan did during the 1860's? Would it result in massive resistance from staunch traditionalists? (like boxers), would there not be a communist China; would the dynasty be ruling to this day like a constitutional monarchy or an absolute one?

 

[millais]

WW2 is already going on while this is happening; it's just in the 'phony war' or 'Sitskrieg' time. Also while the Soviets wouldn't be as great of a fighting force, they still would have access to lots of manpower and resources. Germany with the oil, coal, steel, and wheat of the USSR would be a force to be reckoned with.

Yes, I mean to say if everyone joins the party in 1939, the state of readiness is going to be very poor on the Soviet side. They were already struggling to buy as much extra time as they could before 22 Jun 1941. German did enjoy the benefit of Soviet petroleum and other raw materials until 1941, and it did not translate into so much more benefit in the West.

What if the Qing Dynasty got it's shit together after the first Opium War? Like what if it realized that they couldn't stand up against the Western powers, got rid of their corrupt government officials, and began rapid industrialization like Japan did during the 1860's? Would it result in massive resistance from staunch traditionalists? (like boxers), would there not be a communist China; would the dynasty be ruling to this day like a constitutional monarchy or an absolute one?

They did exactly that, to a degree. They sent lots of Qing mandarins and students overseas to learn engineering, warfare, etc, they spent huge sums to construct Western style arsenals and shipyards in China, and spent even more money purchasing or licensing manufacture of Western weapons systems and modern fleets.

Problem was in developing unified front against foreign powers. As the Qing court was not able to fully clean out corruption from the top to bottom and replace nepotistic appointments with meritocratic ones, more and more power devolved to regional governors and military commanders, who refused to commit their military forces, coffers, and political influence to the national cause in times of crisis, preferring to sit it out and hoard their resources for use in intrigue against the other regional warlords.

Originally, Boxer Rebellion was a reaction to foreign investment/development projects and missionary conversion, not against modernization measures itself. The reactionary, anti-modern Qing clique was originally even committing to stamping out the Rebellion, because the Rebellion was not so subtly putting partial blame on foreign intervention in economy and society on the weak Qing government. Only when they thought Rebellion would succeed in permanently expelling foreign powers did the Qing support it.

When Qing were finally deposed, they were in effect retained as a kind of figurehead monarchy by the Republican government. The imperial court was not expelled from Peking until many years after the 1911 Revolution, and only then because the warlord then ruling Beijing had run his coffers dry and could no longer supply the imperial court's guaranteed annual stipend.

 

[DK 699]

Yes, I mean to say if everyone joins the party in 1939, the state of readiness is going to be very poor on the Soviet side. They were already struggling to buy as much extra time as they could before 22 Jun 1941. German did enjoy the benefit of Soviet petroleum and other raw materials until 1941, and it did not translate into so much more benefit in the West.

Well in my scenario the soviets would declare war on the western allies sometime in early spring 1940 and now the Germans would have more access to more Russian raw materials and the Soviet Navy. Besides, what is important about the USSR siding with the Axis is that now the Axis have the resources to fight a war of attrition against the west. Also with the resources of the USSR already secured (also the Battle of France plays out more or less the same as it does in our timeline), the Axis could fully focus on either an invasion of Britain or the war in North Africa (with the latter being a bit more likely). The Axis could take Greece and Yugoslavia (like how they do in our time line), pressure Turkey to join the Axis, and invade Arabia to create a two-front war in the middle east. With the Germans and Soviets having a land-route to the middle east they wouldn't have the same supply problems that the Afrika Korps had, and take Egypt. This would put the Suez Canal in the hands of the Axis, crippling the British war effort and practically turning the Mediterranean into an Axis lake.

 

[Teri-Teri]

What if we followed the French Republican Calendar instead of the Gregorian Calendar?

Example: Today is 9 Thermidor CCXXVII

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Ooh, you've reminded me of another pet peeve. Paradox Interactive/the Forums (I'm counting it as Alternate History, since that's the point of their games) won't touch slavery or genocide with a ten foot pole. The pussies on that site claim that they'd get too much bad press if they did, as if anybody but them (and me) gives a shit about history simulators. It's not like genocide/slavery doesn't have a very large effect on the world, either. Things like Europa Universalis IV's colonial play feels empty without robust slave mechanics.

I got banned from Paradox for a while too for accidentally stepping on the genocide thing. We were talking about how shitty the Hearts of Iron IV American fascist path is, and I made the point that the Silver Legions were American nationalists, not Southern nationalists, and would have no use for a Neo-Confederacy. Said that, given various historical evidence (some of it coming from a Leftist academic), they would be as likely to target Appalachian people for eugenics as they would Blacks. Got the banhammer, couldn't access mods for months.

It's weird how Paradox attracts so many Far Right, nationalist types in their fanbase, but is so faggy as a company.

That is very weird, since Stellaris lets you not only enslave and genocide other races, but do horribly creative things (like turn them into livestock and sell the resulting food units back to the empire they originally came from).

Speaking of weird, an oddball alt-history I ran across was That Wacky Redhead. More of a pop-culture than political/military alt-history, it wonders, 'What if Lucille Ball didn't sell Desilu?'. Well, we get two more seasons of Star Trek out of it, but Nixon fails in his presidential bid, among other things. It kinda makes sense, although the author admits some things are just random.

 

[Cedric_Eff]

There was an alternate history thing I read where the ISS was completed as Space Station Alpha and the Russian segment of the station is never a part of it. Instead the Russians build Mir-2.

 

[Teri-Teri]

What if the Mongol Empire lived longer than the Roman Empire?

 

[Jeff Wolf]

What if the Mongol Empire lived longer than the Roman Empire?

We'd all have horses instead of cars. Reminds me of an OSC book

Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Mayan people basically go unchecked, build boats then head to Europe and sacrifice people.