Should we defund science? - Challenges of defunding the most dangerous force on the planet.

[MadStan]

No. No one is defunding science.

 

[TheRedChair]

We already have Nations of this world that thinks Science is an abomination. Just wear a turban, believe in Sharia law and submit everything to your Sunni/ Shiite leader.

I'll stick with the science crowd... at least I know what hygiene is.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Oh I know I'm niggercattle to them. But even so: does a rancher not wish to expand his ranch? To have more cattle? To reap further wealth and luxury?

Well it'd be nice if they could get the niggercattle to kill their enemies. It's okay if the niggercattle dies. We're back to square one.

That's the problem, isn't it? It makes me think some sort of "staggered science" before we go for the total kill of science. Like basically we need to invent the way to defund science (like a computer system) before we actually defund science. Maybe it is an impossible task, like the only way to defund science is either to have incredibly advanced science (like some of those "gods" in Star Trek) or return to monke and hope for the best--I mean it did take almost 200K years between the evolution of modern humans and inventing agriculture after all, and not every area invented it at the same rate.

Ever since I read the mote in god's eye, I have found no possible / reasonable alternative. Whatever restraints on progress one might want to choose, there is someone else who openly or secretly will not restrain themselves similarly, and they will be the fathers and mothers of tomorrow. Japan and their period of isolation is a good example.

But I can't really think of a way that doesn't involve widespread propaganda

Why do you try to achieve your goals without propaganda? Why wouldn't you indulge in propaganda to achieve your goals? It's the same type of idea of defunding science. If you don't do it, someone else will, and they will control the future over you.

hey, maybe it is, slavery, Nazism, etc. were all strongly backed by science and used science to maintain themselves)

Nazi's and slavers breathed oxygen too. Better stop. I think you're too mired in anti-colonial/anti-western marxist thought to even see straight. Slavery was once a humanitarian development for the human species. It was a more humane improvement over human sacrifice and just killing your enemies.

 

[Wormy]

I'd go to church 3 times a week, pretend to be a good Bible-believing Christian, and only listen to hymns if it meant the oligarchs wouldn't complete their takeover of the world and subjugation of humanity. It's absolutely nothing compared to the coming techno-serfdom the global elite desire.

Because a Bible believing society SURELY wouldn't subject you to serf dom at all and oligarch's wouldn't seek power at all.

Right?

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

We should reject all humanity and return to monke.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Because a Bible believing society SURELY wouldn't subject you to serf dom at all and oligarch's wouldn't seek power at all.

Right?

Not in the same way. A traditional serf lived a much better life than the sort of serfdom they want, where you pay out the ass to live in a hovel, eat a diet of processed foods, bugs, and soy and your access to everything, including human rights, depends on your social credit score. It's a listless existence where the sole point of your existence is to consoom product, even medieval European society told serfs they were made in the image of God and promised them equality in heaven.

We already have Nations of this world that thinks Science is an abomination. Just wear a turban, believe in Sharia law and submit everything to your Sunni/ Shiite leader.

No Muslim country truly does this. Osama bin Laden for instance was very interested in agriculture (irrigation IIRC), construction, and other civil engineering (his father owns a major Middle East construction firm). Current al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri is a doctor. I think you need something deeper than just reconciling some parts of science with religion. Osama bin Laden for instance would probably have been fine with, say, some new robotic construction technique that put most construction workers out of a job, he'd just say you needed to apply Sharia law and everything would be fine. Luddite ideology has elements to it that are fundamentally correct in its moral assumptions.

Why do you try to achieve your goals without propaganda? Why wouldn't you indulge in propaganda to achieve your goals? It's the same type of idea of defunding science. If you don't do it, someone else will, and they will control the future over you.

Trust me, I think a propagandized society is the least worst option here. Arguably all of society is just propaganda and always has been, since it goes way back to the Stone Age when people needed to justify why society does certain things. And sometimes those "certain things" were rituals that were for social control so the tribe didn't die out, and that included certain exploits in human psychology like how we love group behavior (i.e. shit where you get violent initiation rituals/rights of passage).

Nazi's and slavers breathed oxygen too. Better stop. I think you're too mired in anti-colonial/anti-western marxist thought to even see straight. Slavery was once a humanitarian development for the human species. It was a more humane improvement over human sacrifice and just killing your enemies.

Slavery is a fundamentally degenerate practice, degenerative to the morality of the master (known as far back as Antiquity) and degenerative to society as a whole (as you incorporate a foreign slave race). Slavery caused great negative effects to the economy of the later Roman Empire as well as to African societies who came to specialize in slave trading. It's also clearly bad for the average person, as evidenced by the Southern white. So yes, death is a preferable alternative to slavery, although many societies with human sacrifice like the Aztecs also had slavery.

I logically must oppose slavery since what the elite have in store for us is the dream of every slaveowner who ever lived. It's also very hard to support colonialism when it was the first example of technology allowing a group of elites and (((elites))) control the world, cause unprecedented amounts of damage, and destroy and irrevocably warp countless cultures including their own. I find cultural diversity to be a value in of itself, even if some cultures have inherently warped morality (i.e. the Aztecs), and its obvious the course of technology makes it easy for forces to totally eliminate culture for the sake of making a profit. That doesn't mean I'd prefer a "forever middle ages" sort of thing, and of course I know if whites didn't conquer the world, some other group would have.

Maybe at the end of the day I'm just a centrist. Fascism and Marxism both make valid points about this sort of thing, and I'm not totally against getting rid of the worst cultures like the Aztecs or forcing them to evolve toward some standard of universal morality. Once again, it's the whole "you need propaganda" for a society to function, but that brings us back into the challenge of eliminating science from society.

 

[Wormy]

Not in the same way. A traditional serf lived a much better life than the sort of serfdom they want, where you pay out the ass to live in a hovel, eat a diet of processed foods, bugs, and soy and your access to everything, including human rights, depends on your social credit score.

I'll take that over not having running water or electricity and worrying about whether or not the local wolves or the lord's rivals are going to nail me and my wife to the door of our hovel. As shit as a credit score system is, it beats "You came out of this vagina, so you're automatically low born scum. Now get to farming."

Besides, under your regime, my ass is going to get executed anyway.

It's a listless existence where the sole point of your existence is to consoom product

As opposed to a listless existence of suffering, dying from easily preventable diseases, and being nothing but property to people who had the benefit of coming out of the right vagina and who's dominance over your life is ordained by God.

, even medieval European society told serfs they were made in the image of God and promised them equality in heaven.

>Medieval catholicism
>Equality

Oh you're a PEACH.

 

[Maurice Caine]

1922 could be pretty nice too, since back then, mankind didn't have nuclear bombs or weaponized smallpox and didn't make up viruses in a laboratory. Sure, we killed each other, but we killed each other like men and everyone knew that war was hell you didn't want to deal with. Even the government knew this, hence why they were becoming increasingly cautious to fuck with the populace like they had in centuries past lest they end up like Russia.

Better times maybe, but all you had to look up to after a day of ball-busting work at a factory was reading the papers so meh.

 

[I Love Beef]

Yet now the gap between the powerful and weak is so high that the chance at a revolution against these people is rapidly ebbing away.

@Save the Loli

hahahahah oh wow

Humans, no matter how powerful the establishment, influential the culture, and pervasive the influence, will always see their reigns break down unless they have been wise and able to reconnect back to accepting being on level ground as their populace. And considering what I've seen in society, even the rebellious have witnessed enough to know that they have to leave the masses to learn their lessons, no matter how hard, horrifying, and harrowing it's going to be.

Honestly, you're not wrong. Science has devolved due to it having touched both pop psychology and the dregs of popular thinking. It's become the new urban psuedo legend and zealot faith for its outcasts, envious, and greedy but lazy. But should it be entirely cast out? No, it shouldn't. Science is going to have to one day address Atheism+ and those who are going to make a religion out of it. Science being in the mainstream has also only been around for only a century, at least, and I mean the world we are living in now due to the Industrial Revolution. Of course it's going to have fuck ups, of course it's going to have hiccups, of course it's going to have its quacks, lolcows, and moral freak shows. The mentality of being religously minded has faded from conscience but the physical and subconscious framework still is there, and with science, it was bound to happen. Western science was also supported by the church, and it's rather inevitable that Western science is going to come from a western Christian mindset, no matter how much neckbeards will fume, seethe, and keyboard warrior over this.

I should also address another elephant in the room. I don't blame science alone. I don't blame faith alone. I don't even blame the government and all of its original core institutions and constitutions. I blame the powerhungry and politics and all of the power plays every greedy fucker is going to fight each other over and are doing right now. There's a reason why rebellion comes about, and it comes from hungry, mistreated, realized, and very, very angry people with the indignation that those who play music and eat cake while everything burns while treating their surroundings as good lighting are doing nothing, and will make them the main course. And you think everything's still streamlined, systemized, and invincible? All it takes is a spanner or a loose nut to fuck over everything. If anything fucked up the last two years, I bet you that the megacorps and their puppets in the White House would be singing a much different tune. They'd best pray that kind of luck saves them with the inflation and price hikes coming up. I don't think any kind of science is going to save them if things decide to go belly up.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Besides, under your regime, my ass is going to get executed anyway.

I mean you literally believe modern day Christian fundamentalists are anywhere near the same level of threat as people who hate you and want you enslaved down to the very core of your existence.

As opposed to a listless existence of suffering, dying from easily preventable diseases, and being nothing but property to people who had the benefit of coming out of the right vagina and who's dominance over your life is ordained by God.

Serfs weren't property, they were people with rights, just different rights than other social classes. They were supporters of the church and crown because those were the two groups who guarded their rights (especially the latter). And their existence was such suffering that they had regular festivals and helped give us modern culture.

Dying of easily preventable diseases (which keep in mind science will expand to "death") is a preferable alternative to living in a sea of homogenous brown blobs programmed psychologically by their unaccountable masters, potentially living forever. See, you're falling into the core flaw of Marxism that it only cares for material concerns and not those intangible concerns. Marxism cannot account for matters like a healthy community, spiritual existence, and satisfaction with life, it can only use crude scientific methods like psychology to gauge them.

>Medieval catholicism
>Equality

Oh you're a PEACH.

It literally did. Your entire view of the medieval European social system comes from parodies and people who thought/think they were "enlightened" and had moved past that.

There's a reason why rebellion comes about, and it comes from hungry, mistreated, realized, and very, very angry people with the indignation that those who play music and eat cake while everything burns while treating their surroundings as good lighting are doing nothing, and will make them the main course. And you think everything's still streamlined, systemized, and invincible?

Right now I don't, as evidenced by the fact I'm still able to post this, but in 15-20 years? I wouldn't be so sure. I'd be lucky if it never happens in my lifetime, since you better believe they're taking notes. Case in point is comparing how China watches their population now versus how they did it under Mao. Without digital technology and less thorough control over the economy, Mao was less effective at control than Xi Jinping. Technology made all the difference there. And as things are automated and people literally brainwashed with BCIs, there will be less and less of the human element needed. If you don't think this is possible, keep in mind people thought the same about whatever device you're reading this on just 50 years ago.

I think the only rebellion possible would need to be done by the sentient AI they'll inevitably create to help them manage it. That's probably an inevitability too given the sheer arrogance of these people, and our extinction at the hands of robots a better alternative than eternally being crushed under the boots of Klaus Schwab's acolytes. However, it doesn't need to be that way. We don't need to choose between techno-serfdom extinction via AI destroying humanity if we "just say no" to the science that enables both futures.

 

[Wormy]

I mean you literally believe modern day Christian fundamentalists are anywhere near the same level of threat as people who hate you and want you enslaved down to the very core of your existence.

Not believe, I KNOW they are.

Serfs weren't property, they were people with rights, just different rights than other social classes. They were supporters of the church and crown because those were the two groups who guarded their rights (especially the latter). And their existence was such suffering that they had regular festivals and helped give us modern culture.

So who was allowed to behead who again?

We also have regular festivals. Where have you been living?

See, you're falling into the core flaw of Marxism that it only cares for material concerns and not those intangible concerns.

Only when the those intangible concerns are irrelevant to my well being.

Marxism cannot account for matters like a healthy community, spiritual existence, and satisfaction with life, it can only use crude scientific methods like psychology to gauge them.

So which spiritual gauge should be used? If you say Christian, there's a lot of those too...

It literally did. Your entire view of the medieval European social system comes from parodies and people who thought/think they were "enlightened" and had moved past that.

You'd be wrong.

No, I'm not one of those who think it's all the Bring Out Your Dead scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I know that your lot as a serf was dependent on what time and area you were born in.

But regardless, I'm not going to apologize for enjoying my indoor plumbing, electricity, sanitation, and electronics.

It's all poiintless in my case anyway. My time is short, and I know where i'm going now.

 

[I Love Beef]

Right now I don't, as evidenced by the fact I'm still able to post this, but in 15-20 years? I wouldn't be so sure. I'd be lucky if it never happens in my lifetime, since you better believe they're taking notes. Case in point is comparing how China watches their population now versus how they did it under Mao. Without digital technology and less thorough control over the economy, Mao was less effective at control than Xi Jinping. Technology made all the difference there. And as things are automated and people literally brainwashed with BCIs, there will be less and less of the human element needed. If you don't think this is possible, keep in mind people thought the same about whatever device you're reading this on just 50 years ago.

I think the only rebellion possible would need to be done by the sentient AI they'll inevitably create to help them manage it. That's probably an inevitability too given the sheer arrogance of these people, and our extinction at the hands of robots a better alternative than eternally being crushed under the boots of Klaus Schwab's acolytes. However, it doesn't need to be that way. We don't need to choose between techno-serfdom extinction via AI destroying humanity if we "just say no" to the science that enables both futures.

People are way, way too preoccupied to think for themselves and to expand their brain activity these days while they log time on TikTok and smartphone games, as well as Youtube stars and Pornhub and Netflix. At the same time, this is such easy bait for the watchers of society to get distracted with. China? China's always had a history of natural disasters and famine. I'd love to see what their technology will do if that kind of shit totally wrecks basic infrastructure for society to subsist upon.

I do believe that technology is being monitored, but I'm not buying the cyberpunk ideal anymore. Humans are too stupid to make cyberpunk wonderlands happen, let alone too cynical and financially weighted down to even bother to. The high tech future of the year 2000 is something that is inspiring to believe in, but that requires actual goodwill and humanity to realize. Humankind got the present it deserved now, honestly. Everything is way too watered down and decenteralized to even make an agenda happen.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Not believe, I KNOW they are.

That's a classic description of a useful idiot.

So who was allowed to behead who again?

We also have regular festivals. Where have you been living?

That's the point, you don't have festivals under the coming techno-serfdom, because that involves things like eating meat (banned, eat your bugs and soy).

Only when the those intangible concerns are irrelevant to my well being.

Spoken like a true

It's all poiintless in my case anyway. My time is short, and I know where i'm going now.

The good part is if you're under 40-50 you might die/be too senile to care by the time the system gets in place. I hope that's what happens to me. Sucks to be the people still around in this world though, but they could've prevented it if only they stopped worshipping science and buying shit like a Star Wars-brand smart fridge so you could watch some MCU while they grab some Soylent because their smart couch detected they needed more soy.

People are way, way too preoccupied to think for themselves and to expand their brain activity these days while they log time on TikTok and smartphone games, as well as Youtube stars and Pornhub and Netflix. At the same time, this is such easy bait for the watchers of society to get distracted with. China? China's always had a history of natural disasters and famine. I'd love to see what their technology will do if that kind of shit totally wrecks basic infrastructure for society to subsist upon.

Younger Chinese are likely more resilient than Westerners of the same age. There's enough stories of famine and war from their immediate ancestors and the prosperity is still too recent to truly take for granted. Still not resilient enough for Chairman Xi of course, since they waste their time on gacha games and TikTok (Chinese spyware app).

I do believe that technology is being monitored, but I'm not buying the cyberpunk ideal anymore. Humans are too stupid to make cyberpunk wonderlands happen, let alone too cynical and financially weighted down to even bother to. The high tech future of the year 2000 is something that is inspiring to believe in, but that requires actual goodwill and humanity to realize. Humankind got the present it deserved now, honestly. Everything is way too watered down and decenteralized to even make an agenda happen.

The fact humans are too stupid is exactly why a cyberpunk wonderland* will happen. I mean we've been rigged into consooming product and hip new tech for decades, so of course when we get the chance to wire an iPhone to our brain we'll do it, just like we don't care we carry around smartphones that let the government/corporations track us everywhere we go, ironically negating the need for the classic microchip conspiracy. Of course they'll microchip us too, that is, we'll microchip ourselves so we can do pointless shit like change a bit of our skin color when we buy Soylent at Walmart using the Fedcoin app our body will be connected to.

*no non-billionaires need apply

 

[Wormy]

That's the point, you don't have festivals under the coming techno-serfdom, because that involves things like eating meat (banned, eat your bugs and soy).

I'll still take that over "Eat your gruel and water of dubious origin, peasant."

What festivals will you allow us, m'lord?

Spoken like a true

Seriously, what spiritual needs are you going to demand I tend to? And under what penalty if I don't?

The good part is if you're under 40-50 you might die/be too senile to care by the time the system gets in place. I hope that's what happens to me. Sucks to be the people still around in this world though, but they could've prevented it if only they stopped worshipping science and buying shit like a Star Wars-brand smart fridge so you could watch some MCU while they grab some Soylent because their smart couch detected they needed more soy.

45, so yea, I'll be too dead or out of it to care. And again, that's assuming your precious White Hats haven't hanged me in Gitmo before then.

Either world is a nightmare, and whether or not your White Hats win, it's gonna suck for you.

 

[Ser Prize]

I'll still take that over "Eat your gruel and water of dubious origin, peasant."

What festivals will you allow us, m'lord?


Seriously, what spiritual needs are you going to demand I tend to? And under what penalty if I don't?


45, so yea, I'll be too dead or out of it to care. And again, that's assuming your precious White Hats haven't hanged me in Gitmo before then.

Either world is a nightmare, and whether or not your White Hats win, it's gonna suck for you.

https://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-life/medieval-festivals/

You have a very warped perspective of what the middle ages was like. It wasn't all gruel and shit water.

These days I'd happily be a medieval serf rather than a techno-feudal serf. In this hellish techno-feudalism I have to work my ass off to barely afford to live in a shit hovel and feed myself. At least back in the day the fucking lords had incentive to take care of their slaves; these days you're so replaceble nobody gives a fuck.

 

[Wormy]

You have a very warped perspective of what the middle ages was like. It wasn't all gruel and shit water.

And you must have lived your life without electricity, running water, and basic sanitation.

 

[Ser Prize]

And you must have lived your life without electricity, running water, and basic sanitation.

>electricity
Fair, I would miss it,
>running water
Not really that big of a loss if you have a water supply nearby, be it river or well
>basic sanitation
Medieval societies weren't as dirty as you think. They bathed regularly, had soap, all that stuff.

I'd work less hours overall, have more leisure time and I'd only be hated for being a lowly peasant rather than being a palefaced colonizer.

 

[Wormy]

Not really that big of a loss if you have a water supply nearby, be it river or well

Hope you like parasites!

Medieval societies weren't as dirty as you think. They bathed regularly, had soap, all that stuff.

So how were the sewers? How was pasteurization? Did doctors bother to disinfect wound areas before treating?

I'd work less hours overall, have more leisure time and I'd only be hated for being a lowly peasant rather than being a palefaced colonizer.

That's...better?

And work less hours overall, how many you work now? Most people I know don't work from sun up to sun down every day except for mass or holy days.

 

[Ser Prize]

Hope you like parasites!

So how were the sewers? How was pasteurization? Did doctors bother to disinfect wound areas before treating?


That's...better?

And work less hours overall, how many you work now? Most people I know don't work from sun up to sun down every day except for mass or holy days.

You don't get parasites from a well, nor from a sufficiently fast stream. But it is true you're better off boiling water just to be sure.

Sewers as we know them didn't exist back then. "Sewers" were mainly canals made in cities to prevent flooding from rain water. The modern idea of a sewer didn't come about until the 1800's IIRC. But there was a rough equivalent in the way of large underground cesspits, which were fed by latrines. They were emptied by people and used for fertilizer, apparently emptying it was a really high paying job.

Peasants did work from sun up to sun down on some days, mainly the harvest season, but those periods were brief compared to the standard 40+ hour work weeks.

 

[JokahBaybee]

At this point a return to nature won't save us -we have already managed to fuck up what "nature" is.
I'm of course, talking about the damage industrial society has done to the human genome. In just around a century we've managed to:
- Fill the ocean with plastic, and by extension ourselves
- collapse testosterone levels in males
- flood the market with toxic, seed-oil filled processed food that fails to properly feed us takes years off our lives, causes underdeveloped jaws, crowded teeth, and breathing problems
- evaporate natural selection, even at the level of conception with IVF
- place ourselves in a smoke and plastic filled industrial hellscape where our immune system constantly has to compete with the toxins we ingest with every shuddering mouth breath we take
- this on top of the stress modern life forces most people on this side of the wealth divide out of any feeling of readiness or energy to excercise, cook or eat well, and not spend their short while not working doing anything but indulging themselves in shitty media and fleeting pleasure making everything previously listed even worse
- countless other stupid shit we did to ourselves because we were simply too ignorant to realize how bad it was (i.e lead paint)
- all of the shit we do to our body also has an effect on our mind, if our body isn't healthy our mind won't be either, so we develop depression, anxiety, eating disorders, addictions, brain damage, memory loss, and that's not even getting into how modern life fucks with us psychologically.

and worse, all of the ways we've fucked with our own bodies over our lifetimes has become ingrained into our genes, meaning our offspring will inherit our inferiorities.
And this has been happening for an odd century or so, so we are currently seeing the product of even only a few generations of this bullshit.
I feel like many of the dysfunctional, mentally ill troglodytes we observe on this site are a testament to that.
Now, I will say that any change at this point would be better than no change, since at our current rate our grandchildren will be halfwit human pugs,
but if you ask me, what we need to do now is cross the line twice, double down on the scientific meddling, and this time, do it on purpose, and put it in the hands of people who actually give a shit about improving human life by improving humans, not slapping another band-aid on the problem by making things more convenient. How to do that, I don't know, but I'm interested what you have to say about it.