Silicon Graphics Thread - SGI

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It's one of my dreams as a digital artyfarty boy to own a working SGI machine someday, mad bonus points if it's not wiped and has some devkit and 3d modeling software still in it.

You can probably find an Indy with Irix and PowerAnimator(that's really what you're looking for) on it pretty cheap, it's the monitor output that will fuck you over. If you look at the picture in the op you have an Indy and a monitor, the monitor can display VGA signals while the Indy and a lot of SGI stuff does not have a VGA port for output or use that signalling, it uses DB13W3(yeah I had to google what that was called), so you need to buy that extra-heavy monitor and have it shipped or buy port converters hoping that this one will be the one that works.

Monitor port:
 

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You can probably find an Indy with Irix and PowerAnimator(that's really what you're looking for) on it pretty cheap, it's the monitor output that will fuck you over. If you look at the picture in the op you have an Indy and a monitor, the monitor can display VGA signals while the Indy and a lot of SGI stuff does not have a VGA port for output or use that signalling, it uses DB13W3(yeah I had to google what that was called), so you need to buy that extra-heavy monitor and have it shipped or buy port converters hoping that this one will be the one that works.

Monitor port:
Interesting. Wiki suggests there are converters around (or were ten years ago) but definitely something that you would want to do your research on before buying. If you have an old Triniton 21" and a converter around you're probably fine, new LCDs not so much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB13W3
 
You can probably find an Indy with Irix and PowerAnimator(that's really what you're looking for) on it pretty cheap, it's the monitor output that will fuck you over. If you look at the picture in the op you have an Indy and a monitor, the monitor can display VGA signals while the Indy and a lot of SGI stuff does not have a VGA port for output or use that signalling, it uses DB13W3(yeah I had to google what that was called), so you need to buy that extra-heavy monitor and have it shipped or buy port converters hoping that this one will be the one that works.

Monitor port:

Yeah, I read up on those connectors once. Its been a few years and I don't really feel like brushing up on a dead video signal port like, 40 minutes before bed, maybe, tomorrow, but they're pretty weird. they had 3 big plugs that were RGB and a handful of other pins that handled the sync and some fancy back and forth communication stuff. Apparently better than VGA (bigger pins meant more copper which meant a cleaner signal) for producing video, but in a digital display era it really doesn't matter how clean those analog signals are. Its like saying "Betamax tapes are better than VHS" when DVD and Blu-Ray exists, like you're right but there's options 30 times better for way cheaper so who the fuck cares.

I know a lot of dev kits for the N64 (the kind of SGI machine I'd really want, my dream one) had additional expansion cards that produced VGA or composite or S-Video since these machines ultimately were to play on standard CRT TVs, so they had to have testable output you could plug into your standard off the shelf Walmart TV to see what the consumer would see, so while finding one of those would be rare(er than a standard SGI machine find), getting a specialized old analog CRT isn't the -only- means of getting one set up.

I don't really have a lot of disposable income to burn on something like this anyways, so owning my own SGI system is currently relegated to the "pipe dream" status, but some day I might have more means than I know what to do with and work on making having one to dick with a thing that happens.
 
It's actually possible to run IRIX in MAME (the arcade machine/computer emulator) very slowly. It's been marked working since 0.211 and someone wrote a tutorial on how to emulate it in MAME here.

Regarding monitors, just buy a 2000s or early 2010s LCD screen from a thrift store if you want to hook up SGI computers. Those will accept sync on green video (which is what SGIs along with lots of other oddball computers require).
 
I know a lot of dev kits for the N64 (the kind of SGI machine I'd really want, my dream one) had additional expansion cards that produced VGA or composite or S-Video since these machines ultimately were to play on standard CRT TVs, so they had to have testable output you could plug into your standard off the shelf Walmart TV to see what the consumer would see, so while finding one of those would be rare(er than a standard SGI machine find), getting a specialized old analog CRT isn't the -only- means of getting one set up.

Resolution would be a problem being capped at 480p at best which would make the OS a pain to use, they designed their OS to run at the resolution of the screens they sold with the machines and from the second half of the 90's that would have been 1024x768 at the low end, but @CIA Nigger had a very informative post about displays, I did not know that, thank you.
--
I just remembered this, Lorne Lanning talking about him starting on SGI hardware and Alias in the 80's, when artists weren't thought to be suitable for computer graphics because it was a comp-sci field.

Timestamped at this point but all of it is really worth listening to.
 
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I just remembered a detail from Irix that is common today but wasn't back then: focus was on the window the mouse pointer was above and inputs where directed to that window. They took that pretty far. In modern windows you can scroll a window in the background without clicking on it if the mouse pointer is over it, but you can't type into it. In Irix you could.

Irix was also a rock-solid OS compared to Windows and MacOS at the time, Windows only got good with 2000 and that was one of the many daggers that eventually killed SGI in my opinion.

I'm sorry for spamming the thread, I no longer know anyone that remembers, cares or even know what any of this shit is so I can't help spergin'.
 
Resolution would be a problem being capped at 480p at best which would make the OS a pain to use, they designed their OS to run at the resolution of the screens they sold with the machines and from the second half of the 90's that would have been 1024x768 at the low end, but @CIA nigga had a very informative post about displays, I did not know that, thank you.
--
I just remembered this, Lorne Lanning talking about him starting on SGI hardware and Alias in the 80's, when artists weren't thought to be suitable for computer graphics because it was a comp-sci field.

Timestamped at this point but all of it is really worth listening to.
So basically the way God intended?
 
This is really cool, the emulation, I mean and I can't wait to try it out.
 
I just remembered a detail from Irix that is common today but wasn't back then: focus was on the window the mouse pointer was above and inputs where directed to that window. They took that pretty far. In modern windows you can scroll a window in the background without clicking on it if the mouse pointer is over it, but you can't type into it. In Irix you could.

Irix was also a rock-solid OS compared to Windows and MacOS at the time, Windows only got good with 2000 and that was one of the many daggers that eventually killed SGI in my opinion.

I'm sorry for spamming the thread, I no longer know anyone that remembers, cares or even know what any of this shit is so I can't help spergin'.
Sheeeit, I care.

Also in response to the emulation, that's all probably pretty rad, but like, something about this particular thing makes me want REAL hardware. If I'm just running photoshop 3 and Alias Maya in an emulated space, I'd rather just run Blender and Photoshop CC natively, like the fat bitch I am.
 
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SGI really didn’t fare so well after the 90’s. PCs just caught up and it killed their business.

Well they bled their mindshare out into 3dfx, nVidia, and ATI. You've got a little SGI DNA in your computer right now, I guarantee it.

In...1990? or so SGI did make a graphics card for PCs, but they never went anywhere with it. They should have; imagine a bog standard PC but with an "SGI on a card" inside. If they'd jumped on that they'd have dominated the graphics card industry and the war between who has the best GPU would have been over before it started.

The one thing that modern PCs have never been able to replicate is SGI's "Crossbar" technology for system buses. They might be approaching Crossbar's throughput just via brute force, but as far as design elegance, the average x86 PC isn't even close.
 
Well they bled their mindshare out into 3dfx, nVidia, and ATI. You've got a little SGI DNA in your computer right now, I guarantee it.

In...1990? or so SGI did make a graphics card for PCs, but they never went anywhere with it. They should have; imagine a bog standard PC but with an "SGI on a card" inside. If they'd jumped on that they'd have dominated the graphics card industry and the war between who has the best GPU would have been over before it started.

The one thing that modern PCs have never been able to replicate is SGI's "Crossbar" technology for system buses. They might be approaching Crossbar's throughput just via brute force, but as far as design elegance, the average x86 PC isn't even close.
SGI’s contribution seems to be overshadowed and some have forgotten what impact they made.
 
I just remembered a detail from Irix that is common today but wasn't back then: focus was on the window the mouse pointer was above and inputs where directed to that window. They took that pretty far. In modern windows you can scroll a window in the background without clicking on it if the mouse pointer is over it, but you can't type into it. In Irix you could.
This used to be available with TweakUI back in the Win98 days, it's still there in modern Windows but you have to manually alter some registry settings or use a utility to do so.
 
Sheeeit, I care.

Also in response to the emulation, that's all probably pretty rad, but like, something about this particular thing makes me want REAL hardware. If I'm just running photoshop 3 and Alias Maya in an emulated space, I'd rather just run Blender and Photoshop CC natively, like the fat bitch I am.

For actual productivity, absolutely. (AliasWavefront) PowerAnimator is worth messing around with just to try to figure out why it was the best leading up to Maya. Compare it to old Lightwave, 3dsDos/3dsMax, Rhino -Blender is not considered at this point in time- Cinema 4D was good though. But when it came to 3D software the release of Maya actually made everyone its bitch. Maya had that moment where one second you accept the status quo, this is how things are done, and the next you make fart sounds with your mouth because it's so obvious, it's so natural, designers of the every other program must have been idiots to not have done it this way in the past.

To put that into context I think games like Halo, COD4 or GOW gave the same "yeah, duh" impression of having something that completely unknown and and suddenly obvious and natural, or maybe the smart phone in general integrating everywhere. Maya just changed things in so many ways. In my opinion it truly made it available for artists. Editors for game engines like Unreal and Unity are now similar to what Maya was over 20 years ago.




Not to do them a disservice, there's also SoftImage, it was a top of the line 3d package with an interface that looked like it was made by the same sperg that made FastTracker for DOS. Here's a screenshot:
softimage_3d_v38sp3.jpg
Good program, never used it much though. SoftImage was the rival of AliasWavefront and names that were heard from both companies next-gen software were "Maya" and "Sumatra". Maya became Maya, Sumatra became XSI. The Sumatra beta didn't wow me but I always liked how they were both jungle themed because they were the two big ones and it entangled them in a competition of sorts. Maybe I will get into old SoftImage again...
 
For actual productivity, absolutely. (AliasWavefront) PowerAnimator is worth messing around with just to try to figure out why it was the best leading up to Maya. Compare it to old Lightwave, 3dsDos/3dsMax, Rhino -Blender is not considered at this point in time- Cinema 4D was good though. But when it came to 3D software the release of Maya actually made everyone its bitch. Maya had that moment where one second you accept the status quo, this is how things are done, and the next you make fart sounds with your mouth because it's so obvious, it's so natural, designers of the every other program must have been idiots to not have done it this way in the past.

To put that into context I think games like Halo, COD4 or GOW gave the same "yeah, duh" impression of having something that completely unknown and and suddenly obvious and natural, or maybe the smart phone in general integrating everywhere. Maya just changed things in so many ways. In my opinion it truly made it available for artists. Editors for game engines like Unreal and Unity are now similar to what Maya was over 20 years ago.

In college a few 3D modeling programs were available to me, primarily 3D Studio Max and Alias (moving into Autodesk, who bought them during my college days) Maya. I tried to get 3DS-Max down I really tried, but man Maya was just so more intuitive. I was in a program that had many outcomes, but the one I was most interested in was going into the games industry (I never did, because as I got older and really looked at the working conditions, I was kind of scared off by the fact that you have no upward mobility, perpetual crunch to the point where big places like Blizzard had on site laundry, meaning they'd wash your clothes on site if you just fucking stayed at your desk working, art slave, and the like) and 3DSMax in those days was really the tool to do game modding and proper skinning and the like. Like it had a pelting tool while Maya didn't, and better export into [insert game engine] options, if you didn't want to brute force it with .objs and crying softly into your lap while doing all the rigging again. I think XSI had some similar export tools, especially for the Source engine, but anytime I tried to produce something I knew was going into a game engine, even for fun, the hassle of getting it to work almost made it not worth the efforts if I was using Maya (which I was, because, ugh, 3dsm, your interface, I can do this thrice as fast in Maya.)

I was aware of XSI and Cinema 4D, but without easy student licenses supported by the university, or professors familiar with the software, I never pursued those paths. Blender as a free option existed, and even a few students made projects using it I remember, but its interface too wasn't Maya's (Left Mouse Button, the thing you use most of the time, sets the 3D cursor, something you almost never want to use ever? Why....?) And it was still in that "we're up coming but not a real alternative solution to industry standards" kind of thing. Like GIMP vs Photoshop. Awesome its free, but man, you need results and you need them now, can't be fucking around with this half-baked software.

After college my 3D modeling skills kinda degenerated, I tried for like, 6 years to keep them up, but no work that required it came along, and the cost vs piracy vs the headaches of piracy vs the "I can't claim its education I'm not a student they genuinely could fucking sue me into the bedrock if I somehow got caught using this key professionally" eventually means I stopped updating Maya, and eventually I didn't want to fuck with my 2008 version anymore, since it had all these problems modern versions (such as the skinning pelt tools) had fixed.

Blender 2.8 finally coming around to that "Maya-esque wow this makes sense" interface finally brought me back. I tried a few times in the intervening decade, but it never stuck before the 2.8 update. I'm trying now to rebuild those skills, mostly for fun.

Too Long; Didn't Read Boomer Rant:
Totes know what you mean by that "Maya came along and made an interface that gave artists the ability to actually work" thing, I fucking lived it.
 
In college a few 3D modeling programs were available to me, primarily 3D Studio Max and Alias (moving into Autodesk, who bought them during my college days) Maya. I tried to get 3DS-Max down I really tried, but man Maya was just so more intuitive. I was in a program that had many outcomes, but the one I was most interested in was going into the games industry (I never did, because as I got older and really looked at the working conditions, I was kind of scared off by the fact that you have no upward mobility, perpetual crunch to the point where big places like Blizzard had on site laundry, meaning they'd wash your clothes on site if you just fucking stayed at your desk working, art slave, and the like) and 3DSMax in those days was really the tool to do game modding and proper skinning and the like. Like it had a pelting tool while Maya didn't, and better export into [insert game engine] options, if you didn't want to brute force it with .objs and crying softly into your lap while doing all the rigging again. I think XSI had some similar export tools, especially for the Source engine, but anytime I tried to produce something I knew was going into a game engine, even for fun, the hassle of getting it to work almost made it not worth the efforts if I was using Maya (which I was, because, ugh, 3dsm, your interface, I can do this thrice as fast in Maya.)

I was aware of XSI and Cinema 4D, but without easy student licenses supported by the university, or professors familiar with the software, I never pursued those paths. Blender as a free option existed, and even a few students made projects using it I remember, but its interface too wasn't Maya's (Left Mouse Button, the thing you use most of the time, sets the 3D cursor, something you almost never want to use ever? Why....?) And it was still in that "we're up coming but not a real alternative solution to industry standards" kind of thing. Like GIMP vs Photoshop. Awesome its free, but man, you need results and you need them now, can't be fucking around with this half-baked software.

After college my 3D modeling skills kinda degenerated, I tried for like, 6 years to keep them up, but no work that required it came along, and the cost vs piracy vs the headaches of piracy vs the "I can't claim its education I'm not a student they genuinely could fucking sue me into the bedrock if I somehow got caught using this key professionally" eventually means I stopped updating Maya, and eventually I didn't want to fuck with my 2008 version anymore, since it had all these problems modern versions (such as the skinning pelt tools) had fixed.

Blender 2.8 finally coming around to that "Maya-esque wow this makes sense" interface finally brought me back. I tried a few times in the intervening decade, but it never stuck before the 2.8 update. I'm trying now to rebuild those skills, mostly for fun.

Too Long; Didn't Read Boomer Rant: Totes know what you mean by that "Maya came along and made an interface that gave artists the ability to actually work" thing, I fucking lived it.

That mirrors so much of my own experiences. Blender always felt like being forced to do everything with your non-dominant hand and it drove me crazy. Nice to hear it has improved. GIMP is good now as well, it blew my mind that I didn't try to punch my monitor within minutes when I used the latest version. It's now close enough to the basic functions of Photoshop that I didn't have to learn the GUI or functions.

I actually used 3dsMax not that long ago. It's still crashing and that warms my heart, nothing has changed. Fuck you 3dsMax, if you're going to eat my work you can eat my ass. Then I used Maya for the first time in maybe fifteen years and I still had some basic idea of how to operate it. The QWERTY row is still brilliant, that one hasn't completely left my muscle memory.

The thing with Maya and exporting for games is that, at least in my experience, you are supposed to write the exporter yourself. They had that big production with bespoke solutions mindset. The scripting language used to write those was really good largely because it was so well documented, unlike some other documentation that said "this function takes these inputs" without a word on what it does, so you had to try to figure out what would take a pointer to a bitmap and three integers then return a boolean.

One day many years ago I stood around the workstation of a guy I knew loosely and chit-chatted. I was looking at what he was doing, he wasn't, he was looking at me and talking. If this was a ghost story what I saw would have turned my hair white but instead I dropped the artistic and leaned into the technical. One or two years later I went to cgtalk, I was looking for something, and found several instances where they were comparing people to him and saying they weren't as good. He had fanboys now. It was there or another forum where I asked a noobish question and even got a snide response in the style of "heh, if you only knew who [name] was, then you'd know that..."
I made the right choice.

My only legacy from that period is that I sometimes see one of my old renders in various printed promotional material as if it were a stock photo, which is weird. It's very unsettling because it instantly jumps out at you.
 
So I found out a lot about the N64 Dev kits and how a cheap 400 dollar pirating tool ended up being a slightly better development hardware.
 
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Anyone happen to know if SGI floppies can be written from standard USB floppy drives (and/or if there's stupid issues like Amiga floppies have?) I found an Indy in my garage during covid cleaning that I picked up a literal decade ago and I want some sweet sweet electropaint action.
 
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I remember being sad that the ARC initiative failed. Funny thing is though we're now all running on 64 bit, multicore, non-x86 systems, it's just that they're x64 rather than MIPS or Alpha. And you can sort of handwave away the overhead of x86/x64 by looking at a die photo and seeing it's mostly cache. If the die area is mostly cache it implies that x86/x64 core size isn't a big problem these days. Also if x86/x64 core is denser than 90s server Risc architectures with a fixed 32-bit load-store instruction set like Alpha and MIPS you can further handwave that it will get a better hit rate with the same amount of cache.

So maybe things turned out for the best. SGI bought up MIPS after ARC failed and then kept it in house until they decide to Intel's Itanium architecture, at which point they spun them off to build embedded processors. It's kind of telling that ARM gobbled up that market though.
 
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