@Georgio Cocklord
Let's try this.
I don't see much difference in Moore or Wagner compared to Ennis. Moore is staggeringly dumb in his criticism of christianity in Promethea (ie Jesus being a fictional character when regardless of what any of use feel; there was a historical Christ).
Regardless, my issue is less to do with being anti-anything than it just not being well used through the lens of story telling in Ennis work generally (with some exceptions).
Does it? One bad thing happened and we get an issue. An issue that's an outlier because comic Starlight is virtually a nonexistent character outside of her role as Huey's girl and that issue as far as I'm concerned.
It's her rejection, sans challenge or depth that I object to. For contrast, take fellow atheist JMS. He does not believe in any god or what have you. But religion is a vital core of humanity. Whether it's B5, comics, or anything else, he's written. believers, Passing through Gethsamne. He takes something he doesn't believe in and provides multiple sides creating drama and tension.
Another example, since you bring up John Wagner, would be Judge Dredd's Jesus Syndrome. All much better written with a complex conflict that didn't fail to address the nuances of faith or lack thereof.
Yet, there a a number of people who remain faithful, whether to christianity or something else. Their are Christians in the Middle East and China. I could google, but I'm pretty sure christianity isn't about becoming a christian and nothing bad will ever happen to you.
I would also emphasize the less and less part. This wasn't much of a journey. At least in the comics. The point isn't her being faithful or not, it's that it was a rushed, shallow hit at one of Ennis' pet irritants, Christianity. That's not good storytelling. That's an edgy teen boy's internet screed.
No need to insult a position because you disagree. As you list multiple points, I'll take them in stride.
Which would be fine, but what is Starlight, in the comic, other than her being tied to Huey?
I...dunno? I mean, I feel the Boys morality is skewed. The book consists of them doing the vilest things and then justifying it by having cartoonishly one dimensional villains opposite of them. The fact Ennis gave his Simon Pegg (please give me a TV show Hollywood) a GF doesn't to me alter/undermine my criticism that she's more Huey's pet sup/girl then the more complex character with agency the show turned her into.
Well....that's more a taste than quality point. I personally don't really care? I'm more interested in an actual character, drama and conflict.
Okay, so now you admit that she exists to be Huey's GF plot wise? Note that my standard isn't any of the things you mention.
I could point....again, to the countless love interests in other comics. Who is Starlight? Really?
Another way to look at it, who do I put her with, in the comic, and she creates good story drama and tension? Her christianity is a wonderful foil for Butcher, her wholesomeness a nice contrast for Frenchie. But in the comic where does that go?
I could talk about others. I could point to Homelander. I didn't like Stormfront or Soldier boy in the show, but fucking hell were they better than in the comic book.
And that's lovely. Ennis usually is beloved because he gives a woobie moment. He's always done that. But when it comes time, he doesn't really fulfill conflict, does he?
Yet Rosarch is the moral one. He's the one who refuses to allow the murder of millions to go by. He's the only one not so far caught up in his own selfish hangups that he let's Veidt run wild. Moore's problem with Rosarch was he was too good of a writer to properly undermine the character and his drama and conflicts. Rosarch gets the added humanization you talk about (his mother the whore, his experience with the killers, his relationship with Dan). But, at the end it actually leads somewhere. It's tied to story. A story where everyone isn't a psychotic sociopath, with real drama and conflict; even though the author clearly has his own pet peeves and issues.
You point to Ennis being generous to Troons and mysogynists. But those are groups he somewhat is neutral to personally and what does that relate to the story; compared to Rosarch's deranged lunatic playing into a character, fully formed, and ultimately acting in a righteous way.
I find his ethics lacking, his understanding of christianity shallow to non-existent, and progressive tendencies irrelevant. My issue with the Boys are his failure to, after including things he hates, address them in a way other than that of an angry 15 year old.
I'm not suggesting he's never created a character (He's been doing this for over thirty years/he better have by now), I'm specifically talking about the Boys. About it's poor characterization, it's lackluster addressing of issues and topics Ennis chose to drudge up. About his failures to create tension and drama.
I was never scared for Butcher when he faced a Supe in the comic. In the show anytime they appear they are menacing because of the power gap. I point to Starlight, but I could point to 90% of the cast. I pointed to her because though both the show and book dunked on Christians; the show, at least, took time to make an actual point that was related to characterization and it resulted in interesting character development, drama, and pathos.
Let's try this.
I don't see much difference in Moore or Wagner compared to Ennis. Moore is staggeringly dumb in his criticism of christianity in Promethea (ie Jesus being a fictional character when regardless of what any of use feel; there was a historical Christ).
Regardless, my issue is less to do with being anti-anything than it just not being well used through the lens of story telling in Ennis work generally (with some exceptions).
Does it? One bad thing happened and we get an issue. An issue that's an outlier because comic Starlight is virtually a nonexistent character outside of her role as Huey's girl and that issue as far as I'm concerned.
It's her rejection, sans challenge or depth that I object to. For contrast, take fellow atheist JMS. He does not believe in any god or what have you. But religion is a vital core of humanity. Whether it's B5, comics, or anything else, he's written. believers, Passing through Gethsamne. He takes something he doesn't believe in and provides multiple sides creating drama and tension.
Another example, since you bring up John Wagner, would be Judge Dredd's Jesus Syndrome. All much better written with a complex conflict that didn't fail to address the nuances of faith or lack thereof.
Yet, there a a number of people who remain faithful, whether to christianity or something else. Their are Christians in the Middle East and China. I could google, but I'm pretty sure christianity isn't about becoming a christian and nothing bad will ever happen to you.
I would also emphasize the less and less part. This wasn't much of a journey. At least in the comics. The point isn't her being faithful or not, it's that it was a rushed, shallow hit at one of Ennis' pet irritants, Christianity. That's not good storytelling. That's an edgy teen boy's internet screed.
No need to insult a position because you disagree. As you list multiple points, I'll take them in stride.
Which would be fine, but what is Starlight, in the comic, other than her being tied to Huey?
I...dunno? I mean, I feel the Boys morality is skewed. The book consists of them doing the vilest things and then justifying it by having cartoonishly one dimensional villains opposite of them. The fact Ennis gave his Simon Pegg (please give me a TV show Hollywood) a GF doesn't to me alter/undermine my criticism that she's more Huey's pet sup/girl then the more complex character with agency the show turned her into.
Well....that's more a taste than quality point. I personally don't really care? I'm more interested in an actual character, drama and conflict.
Okay, so now you admit that she exists to be Huey's GF plot wise? Note that my standard isn't any of the things you mention.
I could point....again, to the countless love interests in other comics. Who is Starlight? Really?
Another way to look at it, who do I put her with, in the comic, and she creates good story drama and tension? Her christianity is a wonderful foil for Butcher, her wholesomeness a nice contrast for Frenchie. But in the comic where does that go?
I could talk about others. I could point to Homelander. I didn't like Stormfront or Soldier boy in the show, but fucking hell were they better than in the comic book.
And that's lovely. Ennis usually is beloved because he gives a woobie moment. He's always done that. But when it comes time, he doesn't really fulfill conflict, does he?
Yet Rosarch is the moral one. He's the one who refuses to allow the murder of millions to go by. He's the only one not so far caught up in his own selfish hangups that he let's Veidt run wild. Moore's problem with Rosarch was he was too good of a writer to properly undermine the character and his drama and conflicts. Rosarch gets the added humanization you talk about (his mother the whore, his experience with the killers, his relationship with Dan). But, at the end it actually leads somewhere. It's tied to story. A story where everyone isn't a psychotic sociopath, with real drama and conflict; even though the author clearly has his own pet peeves and issues.
You point to Ennis being generous to Troons and mysogynists. But those are groups he somewhat is neutral to personally and what does that relate to the story; compared to Rosarch's deranged lunatic playing into a character, fully formed, and ultimately acting in a righteous way.
I find his ethics lacking, his understanding of christianity shallow to non-existent, and progressive tendencies irrelevant. My issue with the Boys are his failure to, after including things he hates, address them in a way other than that of an angry 15 year old.
I'm not suggesting he's never created a character (He's been doing this for over thirty years/he better have by now), I'm specifically talking about the Boys. About it's poor characterization, it's lackluster addressing of issues and topics Ennis chose to drudge up. About his failures to create tension and drama.
I was never scared for Butcher when he faced a Supe in the comic. In the show anytime they appear they are menacing because of the power gap. I point to Starlight, but I could point to 90% of the cast. I pointed to her because though both the show and book dunked on Christians; the show, at least, took time to make an actual point that was related to characterization and it resulted in interesting character development, drama, and pathos.
