Sperg about comic books here

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Don't forget Dazzler. The original Perfect Blue of the 1980's. (Dazzler The Movie is even worse for her, as lolworthy as it is, its actually quite horrifying viewing it through today's lens. The fact that she literally sacrifices her body to a guy who is actually an average ugly man makes it even more alarming. Also the fact that she gets outed as a mutant.)
 
@Georgio Cocklord
The second one not so much. Thats a soap opera and it belongs aside how I met your mother and friends, not in a superhero comic. It is an arc in the sense of a soap opera character getting married at the end of the show, its not really an arc is it. Its a change of circumstances around the characters, not necessarily the characters radically changing or representing any radical principles.

It is a character arc. It has a beginning, middle, and end, and it changes the characters. Reed becomes less aloof towards Sue and Sue throughout that period becomes more mature. Speaking of Sue, during Bryne's run she has an arc of becoming a more serious woman, ceasing to be the 'Invisible Girl' and instead becoming the 'Invisible Woman', gaining more self confidence and respect for herself during it. There's also the on-going plot of trying to cure Ben Grimm during the early years, ultimately cumulating with him accepting his fate as The Thing.

You also have Daredevil's Born Again, with the plot caused by the Kingpin's ever growing hatred of Murdock and Karen Page's drug problem. The whole story is largely a character study of Matt.
 
You also have Daredevil's Born Again, with the plot caused by the Kingpin's ever growing hatred of Murdock and Karen Page's drug problem. The whole story is largely a character study of Matt.
This comes under Frank Miller Daredevil, Ive mentioned it.
Ive not read much of Fantastic Four but Ill check.
 
This comes under Frank Miller Daredevil, Ive mentioned it.
Ive not read much of Fantastic Four but Ill check.
I can sit here and list Spider-Man stories all night that are caused by his personal decisions due to his flaws and personality. Like the famous 'Spider-Man No More' story wherein he decides to stop being Spider-Man because he feels like he might've finally paid off his debt and due to his social life finally being good but ultimately deciding his responsibility to use his powers for good is too great to give up. Or the story where he stole a golden notebook from a building that had been turned to solid gold and the story largely being about his guilty conscience over it, ultimately leading him to sell it but use the money to pay off Nathan Lubensky's medical bills.
 
I've always been obsessed with the "meta" of superhero universes and who's truly important to them, so I may as well ask you guys: who do you consider the core/A-list characters of any barebones/mainstream/quintessential DC universe? List them as characters, titles, or both, I don't mind.

Spoiler: Who I think it is alongside rambling on why.
I've always considered it to be:
1. Superman
2. Batman
3. Wonder Woman
4. Flash (Barry Allen)
5. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
6. Justice League (founding members, including Aquaman and Martian Manhunter)
7. Teen Titans (basically the New Teen Titans version, Dick Grayson-as-Robin as series lead)

I think you can fit in the vast majority of the DCU into this framework by tying them into one of the solo heroes' books and respective corners, or as recurring characters in team books - IE Green Arrow and Shazam as JL regular guest stars, Supergirl a regular in Superman's book and Batgirl in Batman's and John Stewart in Green Lantern's, split Robin and Wally West between the Batman/Flash and Titans books... etc. I'm also game for Action and Detective Comics being hybrid anthology books with a starring Superman/Batman story and then rotating fan-favorite characters and teams as the second. I also admit I feel there's very few true solo/A-list heroes who have enough narrative or gimmick meat to lead a book, even the same for teams, which is also why I ask. I would imagine in another world a shakeup where superhero books contract to those and give a lot of cool villains or stories to the main hero who can make them work just as well as their not-so-popular associated hero, or a B-list hero elevated by being a good regular supporting character for the A-lister to bounce off of in their own book, would do better for all characters involved.

I debated Aquaman as truly core to a basic/quintessential DCU but... his solo book only came post-JL in '62, it's been cancelled the most, and story-wise he's stuck underneath the sea with little to do outside too many plots revolving around who has the throne of Atlantis. I also have a hard time seeing him with a big solo career on land in-universe, his logical reason to be above ground would be entirely for the JL membership and thus he makes more sense as a pure ensemble hero like Martian Manhunter - Wonder Woman purposely came to Man's World and can at least establish herself in Gateway City to give a setting for solo plots and her existing non-myth villains, Green Lantern would logically hang out in Coast City during Earth hours and fight Earth-based villains of his there, and so forth. Speaking of, Wondy had her continuous own title and Sensation Comics, Flash and GL always had solo titles, since 1940, so of course they're always gonna be around in some form. You can argue the Justice Society proves the League concept existed since almost the beginning, same for Robin leading team heroes as well, hence the League and Titans as core.

Aquaman and Green Arrow are holdovers from the golden age that kept getting published and. . . well they're ever-present to this day. I'd say you lump in classic JL members like them along with classic JSA members (Black Canary, Dr. Fate, Wildcat, etc) as well. Outsiders' classic lineup has had almost all of them join the JL at some point (except for Halo, I think?).

But yeah, the DC mythos are very centered around Superman/Batman and trickle down through WW/Flash/GL->JL/TT->JSA. Fucking Shazam/Plastic Man get recognition because they'd been around for ever but in modern times they're essentially associated with being JLA/JSA members anyways.

tldr, if you're a notable hero in the DCU, you're a member/associate of the JL/JSA/TT at one point. It's probably because any notable '40s character is lumped in with being JSA associated. Any notable silver age or onwards hero is pretty much either league or titans associated at least. If one wants to be really coy, they could bring up "Legion of Superheroes", which would be pointed out as a Superman originated thing. Outsiders? That was a Batman thing that's also league-associated. Something sci-fi? It's Supes or GL associated. But on the offchance it ain't, then it's connectable to other prominent characters like Hawkman.

I think what may have screwed with the new 52 was them not understanding that the history of the league/titans/jsa was kind of an underpinning glue to so much shit. Remove that and you get a nascent universe that they were trying to go for. But it was a nascent universe that was honestly kinda bland.

Oh yeah, I guess Suicide Squad is the one thing that doesn't fit within the realms of connecting to these 7 (8 if we make the JSA a seperate thing) major pivots. I kinda guess they're probably just mixed in with JL antagonists in general these days but I feel like DC's trying to get its own brand of "anti-heroes" off the ground because it's something I notice they lack when compared to Marvel's proliferation of them. Well, that's probably a good thing considering they're the "nicer" universe. (funnily, the only major non-Bat related antihero that comes to mind in DC is John Constantine. I'd love to say Hitman counts, but we haven't seen stories in 20 years. I suppose Etrigan's an antihero?)

DC is a character focused universe, Marvel is an event focused universe. Thats something I think people should understand getting into both respectively. Even Z tier DC characters like Hawk and Dove or Peacemaker are very three dimensional complex characters even if their plots are not necessarily good while Marvel has only a few S tier characters who are complex and three dimensional like Wolverine, Daredevil, Punisher and probably Hulk. Thats partially why DC storylines stand out for their characters and character arcs while Marvel storylines stand out for the carnage no pun intended and scale of the conflict. With that in mind outside of Batman and Superman I dont think DC has any Core characters but any character of DC from the Golden Silver or Bronze Ages can be made into an A tier character with just the right script as we saw with Peacemakers mainstream success, albeit a bit undeserved cause John Cena is a Chink Nigger. Thats partially what happened during the dark ages with Sandman Wesley Dodds from the golden age and Watchmen which was supposed to be full of Charlton characters, The Comedian being a standin for Peacemaker.

Eh Marvel became known for event fatigue but they're still also known for character driven stories more often than DC as they built the brand around "the world outside your window" with relatable heroes that were humanized. Spider-Man's famous for having character-driven stories. But even if we toss out Spidey, Hulk, and Daredevil because they're the biggest examples in character driven stories, there's still the history of Iron Man's character development being largely story driven over 50+ years. Ben Grimm's struggles with his status as a monstrous looking hero. Johnny Storm's awareness of how immature and shallow he can be. Reed and Sue Richards' marriage. Dr. Doom's characterization has been explored consistently as a monarch, hero, villain, emperor, etc. Dr. Strange's sense of responsibility, Steve Rogers' nature as a man out of his own era. Luke Cage's journey from being a thug, felon, and turning into a notable hero. Silver Surfer's musings on the nature of the universe, of mankind's best and worst attributes. Namor's mood swings and focus on being the king to his people but also trying to step up as a hero. Etc. There's dozens of examples. Nightcrawler's stories as a demonic looking mutant that's actually a devout catholic and jolly man. I could ramble on and on.

I don't think there's a single major marvel hero that hasn't been through a character focused story. We've just had the issue of Marvel being a little too liberal with big events in the past 10 years, but they've always tried to focus on the characters. Fucking Hercules has had a lot of characterization and development over the past decade.

DC's had character development for sure but the heroes are often people who typically live up to their "symbol". Hal isn't just a reckless pilot, he's the greatest green lantern of all time. Barry isn't just the flash, he's the living embodiment of hope and self-sacrifice. Bruce isn't just a man, he's a symbol of terror to all criminals.

I'd say DC's more known for events defining their heroes more than Marvel. Death of Superman, War of the Gods, Dark Knight Metal. All events focused around one of the trinity. Even beyond that, we've got Blackest Night, Flashpoint, all the damned Crisis events. So many of these fucking events come down to noting what the DC heroes are symbols of. Marvel events don't really delve too much into "symbols" regarding heroes in that world with the exception of Captain America as the "icon" that people have always admired or maybe the Avengers themselves and the whole strength through unity deal they have.

Both companies have become very event-focused in the last 30 years or so. The characterization of the heroes and how they are just differs quite a bit. DC's just "Gods becoming men" while Marvel is "men with the power of gods".
 
Agent Venom was horrible, ruined Flash, and reeked of Slott turning Venom into Punisher because he couldn't use the real Punisher.

Also Thunderbolts was killed as a franchise when they tried to make it black ops Suicide Squad rip-off shit.
Agent Venom was fine, but they did kinda have the issue of trying to push him by slotting him into an avengers team too early.

I think Thunderbolts during Dark Rein/Civil War wasn't the best. Shoulda used a different name tbh.
 
The large issue of Super hero shit is feeling the need to make every fucking member of the supporting cast be a hero rather a normal fucking person who reacts to shit happening.

Why does MJ need to be anything other than a Fashion Model who was a small time actor/ Designer? Why the fuck do they turn her into budget Lois Lane in the game?

Jonah is honestly a good reaction to masked vigilantes delivering their vision of justice. Although his characterization is based on the writers.
 
The large issue of Super hero shit is feeling the need to make every fucking member of the supporting cast be a hero rather a normal fucking person who reacts to shit happening.

Why does MJ need to be anything other than a Fashion Model who was a small time actor/ Designer? Why the fuck do they turn her into budget Lois Lane in the game?

Jonah is honestly a good reaction to masked vigilantes delivering their vision of justice. Although his characterization is based on the writers.
I think the issue with MJ is more like writers keep wanting to make her "special" without letting her just settle back with Peter.

I get having other minor costumed characters. Jaime Reyes had Peacemaker, Traci Thirteen, and the surviving JLI regularly pop up. Spider-Man often guest-stars with other street level heroes and marvel mainstays. What bugs me is when they introduce some completely new character that dons a costume and then gets written off after the writer's done OR when the writer's retardedly trying to introduce their new Z-lister.

There's a billion Spider-people. The ones anyone cares about are Peter Parker and possibly Jessica Drew. Everyone else is supposed to be dead as intended after their stuff wrapped up (Ben Reiley, Kaine), a short-lived spinoff or obvious derivative (Mattie Franklin, Arana, any Spider-Woman that isn't jessica, any of the ten million clones/pseudo-clones), or be some kinda shilled thing that popped up after 2010 (Miles, etc.)

Hulks are also another thing that the comics addressed by having "Doc Green" just remove almost all of them pre-2016, aside from Jennifer.

DC's also kinda in the same boat with the current "~family" bloats. Fucking Superman family having a lot of people that noone cares about. The Bat family has a ton of "literally who?" masked characters like Bluebird/Signal. Etc.

I think it's just an exercise in a writer wanting to become known for creating an attachment to a big IP in some way. But I wouldn't wanna be know as the guy who turned Jon Kent into being timeskipped/ageskipped to being a young adult faggot with a liberal streak.
 
I don't like X-Men, but I do like Nightcrawler. Used to read his solo stuff. So the fact he's on board with mutant land being this gay marxist orgy seems really stupid. He's an eastern european catholic, for fuck sakes.
Personally, I always thought there was something quite camp about Nightcrawler.
 
Agent Venom was horrible, ruined Flash, and reeked of Slott turning Venom into Punisher because he couldn't use the real Punisher.

Also Thunderbolts was killed as a franchise when they tried to make it black ops Suicide Squad rip-off shit.
Agent Venom was nothing like Punisher except for the fact they used guns and had similar colour schemes.

Flash had a personality more akin to early Peter Parker or Johnny Storm, and he was overtly a government agent instead of a lone vigilante.
 
What bugs me is when they introduce some completely new character that dons a costume and then gets written off after the writer's done OR when the writer's retardedly trying to introduce their new Z-lister.
Lad in that case you're gonna love the latest and freshest Spider-Sensation that's sweeping the nation: Bailey the Spider-Boy!
Spider-Boy-2.jpg
And he's not just new, he's always been here! It's a Sentry situation! Isn't that just the best?
Doesn't it make you wanna buy comics?

Edit: fuck's sake I just realized I failed to rhyme "sensation" with "nation", instead said "country", what the fuck man. Fixed it but the shame remains
 
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Lad in that case you're gonna love the latest and freshest Spider-Sensation that's sweeping the country: Bailey the Spider-Boy!
View attachment 5506024
And he's not just new, he's always been here! It's a Sentry situation! Isn't that just the best?
Doesn't it make you wanna buy comics?
just give me back the Sentry ffs, I wanna see my favorite marvel schizoid in action.
 
just give me back the Sentry ffs, I wanna see my favorite marvel schizoid in action.
Of course! Here you go:
detail.jpg
Soon in your local comic book store, random people all over the world (read: a diversiteam) have started manifesting Sentry's powers. Who will be able to wield them? (most likely a black woman) And who will fall to the madness of The Void? (Most likely a white man)
 
Of course! Here you go:
View attachment 5506635
Soon in your local comic book store, random people all over the world (read: a diversiteam) have started manifesting Sentry's powers. Who will be able to wield them? (most likely a black woman) And who will fall to the madness of The Void? (Most likely a white man)
what the fuck?
lmao this should be funny if they depict the black woman's mental issues manifesting as literal embodiments like Sentry's shit.
 
I'm sometimes left aback that many of you still read all the mainstream marvel cape shit, my only hope is that its done in some kinda ironic masochistic way or perhaps research, aside from that i'd be forced to think of you as being retarded etc.
it's done out of a vain hope that maybe something fun comes out of the medium again. most long-time comics fans can remember a time when all of the big publishers had at least 2-4 well respected or fun `runs` going on.
 
I'm sometimes left aback that many of you still read all the mainstream marvel cape shit, my only hope is that its done in some kinda ironic masochistic way or perhaps research, aside from that i'd be forced to think of you as being retarded etc.
Big two are not places for creativity. Any half-smart creator with a decent idea they care about, will not waste it on Marvel or DC. Only exceptions are ones who belong to the old-boy network. They are actually getting paid royalties for their ideas. Bendis is a master of that. That's part of the reason why he creates new characters that are crappy similes of already existing, better ones. If he used War Machine's niece instead of creating Riri Williams, Bendis would have to share royalties with other people. And since he is buddies with Quesada, Brevoort, and others, he actually will get checks and have some say in how his creations are used in the future.

That creates a climate where only people coming up with new stuff for big two are desperate ideologues, naive fanboys, or washouts with right connections. Anyone else who ends up at big two uses them as a stepping stone to build recognition and ideally a fan base before moving on to self-publishing.
 
Big two are not places for creativity. Any half-smart creator with a decent idea they care about, will not waste it on Marvel or DC. Only exceptions are ones who belong to the old-boy network. They are actually getting paid royalties for their ideas. Bendis is a master of that. That's part of the reason why he creates new characters that are crappy similes of already existing, better ones. If he used War Machine's niece instead of creating Riri Williams, Bendis would have to share royalties with other people. And since he is buddies with Quesada, Brevoort, and others, he actually will get checks and have some say in how his creations are used in the future.

That creates a climate where only people coming up with new stuff for big two are desperate ideologues, naive fanboys, or washouts with right connections. Anyone else who ends up at big two uses them as a stepping stone to build recognition and ideally a fan base before moving on to self-publishing.
Thank you for this very inlightening.
 
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