Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Captain Syrup]

So... Who do you think did most damage between these 3?
alex kurtzman to Star Trek.
Katleen kennedy to Star Wars.
Or the chibnall/davis duo with Doctor Who?

I don’t think there’s any debate, the ST sequels were so universally reviled, even by the handful of people who liked Finn and Rose Tico (And for the record, I do like Kelly Marie Tran and hope she’s living a happy, Star Wars–free life somewhere.) The one upside is that J.J. went into exile.

Trek is in this bizarre space where you can’t even talk about it without wading into the culture war. They backed off on “woke” because everyone could tell it was McRepresentation, but their “back to basics” pivot hasn’t worked either (because, well, the old stuff was better) and there's still this wave of radiation emanating from Kurtzman. It's the franchise version of liberals pretending the kente cloth stuff never happened while the right keeps gleefully rubbing their noses in it. Star Trek is just going to keep staggering around like a Silicon Valley company that exists on vibes and never turns a profit.

Edit: As for Doctor Who ...bro, I don’t even think you can pin that mess on one or two writers. We're past that. There was nowhere to go down after Tennant and they've tried everyone! They literally deepfaked Billie Piper’s head onto Gatwa’s body (she wasn’t even on set)! Nobody’s hyped.

 

[UnKillFill]

I'm watching "Star Trek: Insurrection" tonight. (a movie I do not like) with my friend. I'm trying to keep my opinion to myself, but she just asked, "Why is everybody acting retarded in this movie?" XD

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

I'm watching "Star Trek: Insurrection" tonight. (a movie I do not like) with my friend. I'm trying to keep my opinion to myself, but she just asked, "Why is everybody acting retarded in this movie?" XD

At least we got her out of that fiasco. Also, drone warfare and cloaking suits and subspace fuckery and the Riker Maneuver™. It's one of those movies that are so bad, they're frustrating, because there is some potential in there for a good story.

 

[Oxyjen]

Has this already been posted? I think it’s brilliant. Sopranos V TNG crossover.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

So... Who do you think did most damage between these 3?
alex kurtzman to Star Trek.
Katleen kennedy to Star Wars.
Or the chibnall/davis duo with Doctor Who?

I'd have to say Star Wars. In less than five years, the franchise was rammed into the ground and exiled to Disney+. Keep in mind, even Marvel's worst outings in the 2020s got theatrical releases.

 

[UnKillFill]

View attachment 8107637
At least we got her out of that fiasco. Also, drone warfare and cloaking suits and subspace fuckery and the Riker Maneuver™. It's one of those movies that are so bad, they're frustrating, because there is some potential in there for a good story.

My biggest problem with this movie is that the Ba'ku are objectively assholes.

The prime directive shouldn't apply here. The Ba'ku are squatters on a planet in Federation territory, who voluntarily gave up their warp tech (and still act smug like they know all about Federation tech at every chance).

The planet they're squatting on is a magic healing planet while the Federation is in the middle of a war that isn't going particularly well right now. (Not sure exactly when it takes place, but I'm watching it right after the DS9 Season 6 finale.) The Federation could really use a hospital on this planet, but for some reason a couple hundred dirty hippies say no for some reason... And the entire Enterprise crew decide "lol Fuck Starfleet" also for no reason.

There's a scene where Geordi is on the verge of tears because he's seeing a sunrise with his own real non-digital eyes for the first time in his life. It's a beautiful scene... and then in the very next scene he's in, he's totally ok with making sure that nobody else gets the same chance, all to make a couple of hundred hippies feel better about themselves. And the whole crew even moralizes about it.

Even if you want to say that the Ba'ku should be able to claim the fountain of youth planet, what about the Son'a? Shouldn't they have at least as much of a claim to the planet as the Ba'ku do?
Hell, if they're so evil, why don't they just remove the Ba'ku themselves? It shouldn't be that hard, there's only 600 of them and they've rejected technology.. (If it was said in the movie I didn't catch it.)

Worse still, the "humor" in this movie sucks, even compared to other Trek attempts at humor. Worf is going through Klingon puberty, isn't that funny? Data just heard the women have a *totally natural* conversation between themselves about their tits, not that we care about such things in these times >.>, so he repeats it to Worf... For some reason.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure I dislike this movie more than Nemesis.

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

I'd have to say Star Wars. In less than five years, the franchise was rammed into the ground and exiled to Disney+. Keep in mind, even Marvel's worst outings in the 2020s got theatrical releases.

Star Wars is still releasing content and has movies coming out over the next couple of years. Besides Andor it's all shit but it's better than Doctor Who which isn't releasing a Christmas episode this year and the spin off series is going to be dumped all at once on Disney+ and won't even be aired on the BBC. It's an actual dead franchise. In five years I expect all three franchises to be dead or close to it so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Miller]

It’s the best kid-centric Star Trek episode ever, because this time it’s personal and the monster of the week is the kids themselves.

1000090304.webm

I just saw that the final part of the episode was released a month ago:

Full episode:

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure I dislike this movie more than Nemesis.

I do too, for the same reasons. Also, how the Amish B'aku kicked the S'ona off the planet makes no sense because of the events we see in the movie. Wicker baskets are no match for drones and spaceships. Or why the S'ona left the entire planet instead of settling on the other side or 50 miles away from the B'aku. Pretty sure the B'aku aren't using sensors to detect them. Say what you want about the Navajo, they were willing to fight for their colony, while the B'aku would rather let Crusher and Troi protect them.

 

[UnKillFill]

So... Who do you think did most damage between these 3?
alex kurtzman to Star Trek.
Katleen kennedy to Star Wars.
Or the chibnall/davis duo with Doctor Who?

To quote the episode I'm watching...

I don't think the Star Wars *movies* were ever that great to begin with. The best part of Star Wars has always been the universe itself and the external media around it (especially video games, but also certain books that will never be made into movies...) and those still seem to be pretty good.

I would say more damage was done to Doctor Who overall, because some of the shit they've done rots the very history of Who to it's core. The Doctor was actually born a little black girl, and Time Lords stole the ability to regenerate from her and then erased her memory of it, then forced him to think his first incarnation was a cis straight white man.

As for Trek, "Well, actually, Spock has an adopted black human sister... and she was a better Vulcan than he ever was, and taught him everything he knows... only he's never once mentioned her before or since... also Spock was retarded, and Kick was gay, and whatever cancerous bullshit they added in STD" is a lot easier to ignore to me than that, and that's coming from somebody who loves Trek more than any of those others.

 

[Strangolapreti]

The best part of Star Wars has always been the universe itself and the external media around it

Yeah but katleen kennedy turned the extended universe non-canon in favour of making the new canon that was shit.

Edit: As for Doctor Who ...bro, I don’t even think you can pin that mess on one or two writers.

I liked Matt smith's version of the doctor, he had a good run, and Capaldi too was excellent at portraying the character, finding Gallifrey was a major story arc that spammed for entire seasons, and Chibnall just said "fuck that lol" and killed everyone there.

They backed off on “woke” because everyone could tell it was McRepresentation

Oh, but did they really do that?

Star Trek has the most hope with the Skydance acquisition. Star Wars is fucked but will limp on for a few more years. When KK leaves her protege Carrie Beck will take over. She's the one responsible for the Reylos and other Tumblr-esque fanfiction shit. Doctor Who is beyond fucked now that Disney has pulled out and fewer people are paying their TV license fee so they may not be around in a decade. Paramount could always make a Gary 7 show and fullfill Rodenberry's vision of ripping off Doctor Who.

Which one requires the most retcons to salvage?

 

[Captain Syrup]

I would say more damage was done to Doctor Who overall, because some of the shit they've done rots the very history of Who to it's core. The Doctor was actually born a little black girl, and Time Lords stole the ability to regenerate from her and then erased her memory of it, then forced him to think his first incarnation was a cis straight white man.

It’s easy to forget now that fans actually wanted a female Doctor after decades of increasingly forgettable white guys. What nobody asked for was this revisionist diarrhea.

Hartnell, by all accounts, didn’t like black people and barely knew where he was half the time but you’d think there’d be a little grace in handling his legacy. Moffat had him being led around by the nose by his Mary Sue, then turned him into a doddering old lech who looks like he got lost in a shopping mall. Great tribute.

And from there it just kind of spiraled. Hartnell was secretly a black woman the whole time and everyone on Gallifrey is regenerating into black women simultaneously. Is Star Wars doing this? Let's shoot a scene where Vader gets hit by a milkshake because David Prowse voted UKIP.

Really miserable waste of Jo Martin, as well.

Oh, but did they really do that?

I think SNW chilled out a bit, yeah. They figured out that you can have queer characters without making every episode about that. Like, fine, keep ‘em. No more “body positivity” redheads clogging up the Jeffries tubes. No more magical negro captain. No more Elon Musk Memorial Polytechnic.

 

[Rabo 2: Electric Boogaloo]

It's really shocking much Voyager gets so much better once Seven of Nine shows up.

 

[Captain Syrup]

It's really shocking much Voyager gets so much better once Seven of Nine shows up.

For someone who had never seen a single minute of Star Trek and hated the outfit she did a good job.

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

Which one requires the most retcons to salvage?

Star Trek: Q snaps his fingers and says it was him being a goofy goober.
Doctor Who: The next Doctor fixes it with some timey-wimey shit in the TARDIS
Star Wars: Bring back the old canonicity levels and relegate everything made after the Disney acquisition in the bottom tier alongside The Holiday special. Remake the sequel trilogy based on Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

Star Wars will be the hardest to fix because of the lack of time travel. Fuck right off with that World Between Worlds bullshit.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

My biggest problem with this movie is that the Ba'ku are objectively assholes.

The prime directive shouldn't apply here. The Ba'ku are squatters on a planet in Federation territory, who voluntarily gave up their warp tech (and still act smug like they know all about Federation tech at every chance).

The planet they're squatting on is a magic healing planet while the Federation is in the middle of a war that isn't going particularly well right now. (Not sure exactly when it takes place, but I'm watching it right after the DS9 Season 6 finale.) The Federation could really use a hospital on this planet, but for some reason a couple hundred dirty hippies say no for some reason... And the entire Enterprise crew decide "lol Fuck Starfleet" also for no reason.

There's a scene where Geordi is on the verge of tears because he's seeing a sunrise with his own real non-digital eyes for the first time in his life. It's a beautiful scene... and then in the very next scene he's in, he's totally ok with making sure that nobody else gets the same chance, all to make a couple of hundred hippies feel better about themselves. And the whole crew even moralizes about it.

Even if you want to say that the Ba'ku should be able to claim the fountain of youth planet, what about the Son'a? Shouldn't they have at least as much of a claim to the planet as the Ba'ku do?
Hell, if they're so evil, why don't they just remove the Ba'ku themselves? It shouldn't be that hard, there's only 600 of them and they've rejected technology.. (If it was said in the movie I didn't catch it.)

Worse still, the "humor" in this movie sucks, even compared to other Trek attempts at humor. Worf is going through Klingon puberty, isn't that funny? Data just heard the women have a *totally natural* conversation between themselves about their tits, not that we care about such things in these times >.>, so he repeats it to Worf... For some reason.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure I dislike this movie more than Nemesis.

The thing about Nemesis is that it has a very interesting premise. A Starfleet admiral discovers a planet with miraculous healing properties, and the Prime Directive can't do a thing to stop him, so Picard and the others have to go rogue in order to save the planet.

Things fall apart when you get to the people the crew is throwing their careers away for, the Ba'ku. They claim that they shun technology because they're more advanced than the Federation, but the only reason that they've lived for so long is because they're living on Planet Fountain of Youth. If the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, Borg, or anyone who had a board with a nail in it tried to invade, they wouldn't be able to defend themselves.

While it's still wrong to force the Ba'ku to move off their planet, the Ba'ku don't come off as any better by withholding the cure for death because Starfleet doesn't shop at Whole Foods. They care more about their beliefs than helping others. If Starfleet planned to use their planet's radiation as strictly a weapon, it'd be more understandable for them to say no.

Star Wars is still releasing content and has movies coming out over the next couple of years. Besides Andor it's all shit but it's better than Doctor Who which isn't releasing a Christmas episode this year and the spin off series is going to be dumped all at once on Disney+ and won't even be aired on the BBC. It's an actual dead franchise. In five years I expect all three franchises to be dead or close to it so it doesn't really matter.

Sorry, I meant to say Disney pretty much killed all interest in Star Wars movies.

Which one requires the most retcons to salvage?

Discovery's second season literally ended with Spock asking Starfleet to classify all information related to titular ship.

Star Wars will be the hardest to fix because of the lack of time travel. Fuck right off with that World Between Worlds bullshit.

Well, not if you don't count the Lego specials.

On a related note, how sad is it that the sequel characers are treated better in these specials than in the actual movies?

 

[Captain Syrup]

relegate everything made after the Disney acquisition in the bottom tier alongside The Holiday special.

While it's still wrong to force the Ba'ku to move off their planet, the Ba'ku don't come off as any better by withholding the cure for death because Starfleet doesn't shop at Whole Foods.

I always thought it was kind of funny that Star Trek spent like the ’90s being obsessed with “the noble savage” and “RETVRN" stuff, considering it’s a show literally set in a communist space utopia where you can 3D print a steak.

It’s fine once or twice as an episode, but by the time VOY and Insurrection rolled around it felt the franchise was about camping.

You’ve got these movies being written and directed by the cast.... Frakes is fast, he gets TV done on time, cool, but who TF cares about speed when you’re making a movie?

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

but who TF cares about speed when you’re making a movie

Roger Corman

 

[Captain Syrup]

Roger Corman

Tripping out and realizing I'm a toxshic pershon. Roger Corman shit.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Starfleet is neither communist nor they are conquerors, that's a fundamental thing to understand Insurrection (whether you like it or not). People can move and settle in other planets and Starfleet won't go after you if you don't want to. We do have episodes where Starfleet leaves people alone and don't mess up with you: the one with the survivors in Season 3 (until they discovered the truth and still left the guy alone) and Tasha's planet that fell apart and Starfleet hasn't returned despite they could save them all because their people just don't want them there.

Then, the Ba'ku aren't part of the Federation. Planets like Haven or Risa allow people to go there to have fun or heal because their people want them to. When a ship of sick people wanted to land on Haven, their gov. said they didn't want them there and told Starfleet to stop them. And the Enterprise had to accept this. The Ba'ku don't want intruders in their home to interfere with their life and they have the right to do so and Starfleet complies to accept it. The planet was likely empty when they got there, they built the society we see there, so it's their planet and it doesn't belong to anyone else just because their resources are demanded for others. The Sona guys are welcome to return as long as they accept their rules, which they didn't. It's not to protect them because of how their life is, it's because they just don't want anyone there. Tasha's home planet is fucked up and they still follow through not going there. It's all the opposite of communism: they respect right of association.

As for the curative powers of the planet, it doesn't just heal you: it basically makes you eternal. Humanity in Star Trek has gone through different processes of evolution, but they are natural processes humanity went through on their own. This would be an very drastic artificial change. I'm sure the values of the Federation are against this type of social engineering (they're against cloning or genetic manipulation).

About Geordi's eyes, we already have the answer in Season 1 when Q gave Riker powers. Geordi said that the price to pay to be able to see again was too much for him and he was fine with sacrificing it. Same when Riker didn't save a dying girl. They knew Riker using Q's power would be a temptation that could damn him forever, so they all agreed on not accepting Riker would not use them, as painful as it was. Geordi understands that other people going there and exploiting the planet would result with the destruction of the life of the Ba'ku and it goes against the values of the Federation. Also, humanity in those times aren't the same as we are now. They aren't obsessed with eternal life like that crazy guy who wants to live forever.