Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Honka Honka Burning Love said:
Well, he learned it from people who learned it from others, who probably learned it from even others.

I imagine the line of "Klingon Culture" went from Actual Klingon -> Star Fleet Scientist who was interested in Klingons -> Star Fleet Admiral -> Star Fleet Case Worker for Worf - > Worf's Parents -> Worf. What Worf was learning was filtered through so many people it isn't a surprise he got a Memetastic Warped version of Klingon Culture.
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Honestly there wouldn't even need to be much distortion, just a different level of adherence. Worf was raised by humans, right? He probably felt isolated and different and searched for something to belong to. Likely he could get hold of accurate descriptions of Klingon culture and beliefs but took them much more literally than someone growing up with them would. Like a White Muslim convert going full ISIS-supporter or a troon becoming some exagerrated parody of femininity; or an Indian-American visiting New Delhi for the first time and being disappointed when her cousins use American slang and suggest going to get a McDonalds. The Indians have a word for those people but I forget what it is. But anyway, made the point. Teen-Whorf learns that Klingons consider X to be dishonourable and vows never to do X. Meanwhile on Klingon Homeworld, Klingons do X when convenient and look the other way.
 
Judge Holden said:
Now, in the post abrams/kurtzman hell the franchise has become....its still kinda spergy but I think I understand his fear that his work would wind up turning into generic and mediocre sci-fi drek without keeping its feet firmly planted in this founding principle
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Roddenberry, dying of, well, fucking everything, importantly told Nicholas Meyer to not make Saavik the evil betrayer bitch in Star Trek 6. He could barely talk through his lawyer, and apparently pissed Meyer off to such an extent that Meyer yelled at him and left the room.

Meyer declared "She's my character and I'll do what I like with her."

Well, turns out the old man was right. They replaced Saavik with another character and made her the betrayer. Not only did the actress do a pretty good job, they didn't ruin an existing character. Or have her played by three freaking actresses. I know Roddenberry was a werido but he still had some good sense even at the end.
 
L50LasPak said:
Well, turns out the old man was right. They replaced Saavik with another character and made her the betrayer. Not only did the actress do a pretty good job, they didn't ruin an existing character. Or have her played by three freaking actresses. I know Roddenberry was a werido but he still had some good sense even at the end.
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Like George Lucas, whatever else he's done, is always George Lucas and the creator of Star Wars, so is Roddenberry, crazy fucker that he was, Roddenberry the creator of Star Trek.
 
PrussiansMarchingOn1819 said:
I got goosebumps, my friend's mom took us both a year later after I went to Disney World. She heard my family say no to Star Trek The Experience so she invited me to come along with them for the adventure.
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The Star Trek Experience was fucking amazing, it's a travesty that they tore it down. The Next Gen ride thing had the best fakeout ever, they herded everyone into a room that looked like your average amusement park ride lobby, lines on the floor, TVs showing safety rules about seatbelts and shit, then the lights went out, there was a flash and a blast of air, and when the lights came back up I was standing in a 1701-D transporter room, no lines on the floor, no TVs. And I had no fucking clue how they pulled it off. It was quite possibly the most amazed I've ever been in my life. So I paid extra to get to do the whole photo on the bridge set thing, and because it was a slow day the photographer guy let me take my time exploring the set.

Some googling will pretty easily come up with behind the scenes info on how the Experience trick worked, for anyone interested. Ordinarily I would avoid spoiling that, since the surprise of it is what really made the thing so fantastic, but since the ride's been gone like ten years now, no point in keeping a secret. F.
 
Honka Honka Burning Love said:
Well, he learned it from people who learned it from others, who probably learned it from even others.

I imagine the line of "Klingon Culture" went from Actual Klingon -> Star Fleet Scientist who was interested in Klingons -> Star Fleet Admiral -> Star Fleet Case Worker for Worf - > Worf's Parents -> Worf. What Worf was learning was filtered through so many people it isn't a surprise he got a Memetastic Warped version of Klingon Culture.
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Before I say anything else, There were clearly "Klingon weebs" (and I just love how fitting that term is, despite me literally inventing it right now...) in the Federation during TNG times. (The one who immediately springs to mind Is Curzon [and by extension Jadzia] Dax... which makes sense, because Jadzia ended up fucking Worf.) but I would be amazed if there weren't others. Think about it...

Also, I don't think Worf's human parents, the Rozhenko's, ever "filtered" anything about his Klingon heritage to him... From what little we saw of them, they seemed fully supportive of him embracing his Klingon heritage... and that makes sense in the greater context of the Federation at the time, even though they clearly didn't really "get it" themselves... Also, Worf always seemed to be *highly* informed about specific facets of Klingon culture, and at least *some*of those Klingon rituals were clearly known to the Federation in his time...

Overly Serious said:
Honestly there wouldn't even need to be much distortion, just a different level of adherence. Worf was raised by humans, right? He probably felt isolated and different and searched for something to belong to. Likely he could get hold of accurate descriptions of Klingon culture and beliefs but took them much more literally than someone growing up with them would. Like a White Muslim convert going full ISIS-supporter or a troon becoming some exagerrated parody of femininity; or an Indian-American visiting New Delhi for the first time and being disappointed when her cousins use American slang and suggest going to get a McDonalds. The Indians have a word for those people but I forget what it is. But anyway, made the point. Teen-Whorf learns that Klingons consider X to be dishonourable and vows never to do X. Meanwhile on Klingon Homeworld, Klingons do X when convenient and look the other way.
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Yes, I agree with you to some extent... I'll even quote the SFDebris Klingon Honor video again, with a timestamp even this time:
Worf definitely went overboard on "honor" even compared to his fellow Klingons, and it definitely meant something *more* to him than it did them, clearly because it was all he had of his heritage, growing up on earth with human parents, even if they were receptive to him embracing that culture...
 
UnKillFill said:
Before I say anything else, There were clearly "Klingon weebs"
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yes, but how long did those "Weebs" have to really study and understand the culture and history, The Events of the Enterprise C occurred 2 years before Worf lost his family. As such I doubt that The Federation's information on Klingon Culture was limited during the majority of Worf's upbringing.

UnKillFill said:
Also, I don't think Worf's human parents, the Rozhenko's, ever "filtered" anything about his Klingon heritage to him... From what little we saw of them, they seemed fully supportive of him embracing his Klingon heritage...
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When i say filtered I don't mean on purpose, I mean that it is going through several people, most of which don't exactly understand the details and context so by the time it got to Worf everything was warped, which makes Worf's Autism a little more sensible given what we see of him vs what we see of other Klingons.
 
After episode four I think I'm done.

STP has a noxious reek of geek culture.

The characters are a collection of tropes. The Han Solo pilot. The manic pixy nerd girl. The chosen girl with ninja powers that activate. Evil incest siblings. Now we've got a fucking space elf with a samurai sword.

Add in the snarky quippy dialogue and it's like Joss Whedon just walked into my living room and took a massive shit on the floor.
 
Worf was constantly getting shit from other Klingons for being raised by humans so he had to be the ideal Klingon to compensate. They tried a much milder version of that dynamic with Spock being half-human once in a while too.
 
Tookie said:
Worf was constantly getting shit from other Klingons for being raised by humans so he had to be the ideal Klingon to compensate. They tried a much milder version of that dynamic with Spock being half-human once in a while too.
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It's easier to make something dramatic about being obsessed with honor and violence than being obsessed with being logical and reasonable. Data is sort of the opposite of both characters.
 
UnKillFill said:
Mike and Rich weigh in on the 2nd and 3rd episodes of STP.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GkDmRy6SP28
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I think their observation of nu Trek being very spirituality focused is also true for Star Wars.
It seems modern sci fi shows are afraid of science in a deep sense - they dislike the cold certainty and logic, so they replace them spirituality and belief in higher power. I wonder if it's a generational issue or a gender issue.
 
wtfNeedSignUp said:
I think their observation of nu Trek being very spirituality focused is also true for Star Wars.
It seems modern sci fi shows are afraid of science in a deep sense - they dislike the cold certainty and logic, so they replace them spirituality and belief in higher power. I wonder if it's a generational issue or a gender issue.
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I suppose that fits in with the whole "There is no truth, everything is subjective" mindset a bunch of those people have.
 
Racist Trash said:
I suppose that fits in with the whole "There is no truth, everything is subjective" mindset a bunch of those people have.
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No, it's the opposite. Subjective reality is one of the fakest and most depressing ideas, as it's centered around the idea that values don't exist and there is no real god/law.
So people compensate by having a bargain bin religion with no real structure or community (and that's the spirituality).
 
wtfNeedSignUp said:
So people compensate by having a bargain bin religion with no real structure or community (and that's the spirituality).
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Needless to say, this ersatz religion is wholly unsatisfying and gives no meaning, because the whole point of religion is providing an objective framework of belief and meaning shared by a larger community.
 
UnKillFill said:
What do you think about the bit in "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country", where Chancellor Gorkon claims that William Shakespeare was either a Klingon, or he plagiarized his works from Klingons? (it's unclear):
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This was also the best part of Tom Cruise's Last Samurai, where the japanese village chief starts reading his diary and loves the bit about Custer & the Battle of Little Bighorn. Peak diversity and multiculturalism:
 
the good folks over on cytube/1701/ had this to run after the episode where Soong calls his sons home
 
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