Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Saturnalia-1918 said:
I never really liked Picard even with the Nu Trek additions. He always seemed inhuman in the worst of ways, like when he was going to allow an entire species die before Data forced them to hear the cries of an innocent little girl forced them to acknowledge what dicks they were being or when they were going to allow another unrelated species die before Worf's human brother went behind their backs and saved them.

He always seemed to be a fanatic of the Prime Directive in the worst way and I agree Kirk is the better Captain.
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Unpopular opinion but I kinda like how fanatical the federation is about the PD. They basically do not want to "exploit" or otherwise interfere with the course of less advanced civilizations at any price-both for generally anti colonial moral reasons and because of the enormous responsbility shepherding an unready species to the cosmos entails.

This means they are willing to let species die as opposed to interfering with their course of development(they also dislike disrupting the natural progression of a society-without external interference).

It gives a good culture clash between the viewers and the characters/the world on screen.
 
Shamash said:
Unpopular opinion but I kinda like how fanatical the federation is about the PD. They basically do not want to "exploit" or otherwise interfere with the course of less advanced civilizations at any price-both for generally anti colonial moral reasons and because of the enormous responsbility shepherding an unready species to the cosmos entails.
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Their main reason seems to be human history proving, they claim, that advanced civilizations meeting new ones always ended in disaster. But now, there are more people changing their minds about the specific relationship between Spain and America and how different it is from the so-called "official story" of genocide and exploitation that never happened. Of course, this wasn't a thing people knew or talked about at the time of TOS and TNG.
 
I remember on Twitter some leftist crazy argued the Prime Directive was racist, because it implied a developmentalist model for social development. There is a clear demarcation between having FTL travel and not having it. When she was confronted with this, she basically argued “well the right thing to do is be a subway to the stars for everyone, regardless”.

Which, holy shit no country or international institution does this for indigenous peoples in RL, for obvious reasons. (She also claimed the “anti colonial” literature supported her point, when I had never seen any such argument in such circles).

At the end of the day, technological distinctions are real, and if you are more powerful, then you will affect by virtue of your mere presence if not force of arms those of a lower technological base. Star Trek’s PD is probably the most rational “anti colonialism” that could ever be imagined. Anything else is literally “they can do no right”.

You can reject the PD on the grounds that you have an obligation to everyone, but that means you are responsible for what they do afterwards. A responsibility even Archer sensibly balks at in the otherwise infamous Dear Doctor.

IU anyway, the federation is not remotely powerful enough to meddle and be sure it isn’t causing more harm than good. You need be to as advanced as the Culture or even say Xeelee to use more obscure sci fi examples-to “adjust” societies at a planetary level. And the federation of the shows is not near that advanced.
 
Shamash said:
I remember on Twitter some leftist crazy argued the Prime Directive was racist, because it implied a developmentalist model for social development. There is a clear demarcation between having FTL travel and not having it. When she was confronted with this, she basically argued “well the right thing to do is be a subway to the stars for everyone, regardless”.

Which, holy shit no country or international institution does this for indigenous peoples in RL, for obvious reasons. (She also claimed the “anti colonial” literature supported her point, when I had never seen any such argument in such circles).

At the end of the day, technological distinctions are real, and if you are more powerful, then you will affect by virtue of your mere presence if not force of arms those of a lower technological base. Star Trek’s PD is probably the most rational “anti colonialism” that could ever be imagined. Anything else is literally “they can do no right”.

You can reject the PD on the grounds that you have an obligation to everyone, but that means you are responsible for what they do afterwards. A responsibility even Archer sensibly balks at in the otherwise infamous Dear Doctor.

IU anyway, the federation is not remotely powerful enough to meddle and be sure it isn’t causing more harm than good. You need be to as advanced as the Culture or even say Xeelee to use more obscure sci fi examples-to “adjust” societies at a planetary level. And the federation of the shows is not near that advanced.
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I agree that the broad tenants of the PD have some merit, giving what amount to tribal people the equivalent of modern weaponry would be a disaster both for the newly uplifted group and potential victims of the caveman with a ray gun (like the Klingons).

What I don't agree with is that the Federation allowing a species to die off because of a potential meteor or apocalyptic global disaster that is out of the alien's control because the Federation fears interference. Better to have some influence on a developing culture than have that culture wiped out.

If you truly want to try and eliminate most of your interference on the native species, then the teleporter and Holodeck (as used by Worf's human brother) can mitigate most of damage caused by Federation interference. Yes their culture is partially "contaminated" by Federation interference but it's better than allowing that culture to die off while you spectate from your cushioned starship bemoaning how cruel life is and then flying off to the next planet.
 
Saturnalia-1918 said:
I agree that the broad tenants of the PD have some merit, giving what amount to tribal people the equivalent of modern weaponry would be a disaster both for the newly uplifted group and potential victims of the caveman with a ray gun (like the Klingons).

What I don't agree with is that the Federation allowing a species to die off because of a potential meteor or apocalyptic global disaster that is out of the alien's control because the Federation fears interference. Better to have some influence on a developing culture than have that culture wiped out.

If you truly want to try and eliminate most of your interference on the native species, then the teleporter and Holodeck (as used by Worf's human brother) can mitigate most of damage caused by Federation interference. Yes their culture is partially "contaminated" by Federation interference but it's better than allowing that culture to die off while you spectate from your cushioned starship bemoaning how cruel life is and then flying off to the next planet.
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Unless the holodeck breaks and said primitives lose their minds and commit ritual suicide. Transplanting them to a different planet still fucks with their culture in immeasurable ways. Suddenly all the plants are different and the growing seasons are all different. Their ability to advance medicine and agriculture according to their biology has been altered.

I think Picard's and Worf's general take is a liability kind of issue. If you do nothing, you can't be held liable, but if you do something and the plan goes sideways like the memory-altering drug doesn't work or one of them escapes the holodeck, you are liable and then have to explain to a Fed bureaucrat why helping--and failing--was a good idea.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
Unless the holodeck breaks and said primitives lose their minds and commit ritual suicide. Transplanting them to a different planet still fucks with their culture in immeasurable ways. Suddenly all the plants are different and the growing seasons are all different. Their ability to advance medicine and agriculture according to their biology has been altered.

I think Picard's and Worf's general take is a liability kind of issue. If you do nothing, you can't be held liable, but if you do something and the plan goes sideways like the memory-altering drug doesn't work or one of them escapes the holodeck, you are liable and then have to explain to a Fed bureaucrat why helping--and failing--was a good idea.
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But couldn't you be held just as liable for sitting by and watching as a meteor crashes onto the planet or a super volcano that was predicted months ago erupted killing all life on the surface? A willing accomplice via being a bystander?
 
Saturnalia-1918 said:
But couldn't you be held just as liable for sitting by and watching as a meteor crashes onto the planet or a super volcano that was predicted months ago erupted killing all life on the surface? A willing accomplice via being a bystander?
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No, it's like how cops are not liable to protect others. If cops did have a duty to interfere in every rumored criminal event, they could be held liable for NOT perceiving some criminal acts. "We heard you were beating your child. We'd better monitor you 24/7 to be absolutely sure you aren't beating your child." They'd have to violate due process if your child's death happened because they weren't vigilant. If they didn't and your child died, the cops are now liable.

If the Prime Directive were the opposite and Starfleet had a duty to meddle in the affairs of other civilizations, what if those civilizations figure out that the transporter is a really good way to send bombs? Or trap political prisoners in holodecks? Or use tractor beams to tow asteroids as planet killers? Being able to mess with a planet's tectonic activity has all sorts of unintended consequences if a civilization that is not as moral as the Feds were to obtain it.

I'll agree that the reality of event does not match the legality behind Picard and Worf's arguments, but they are rooted in reasons that do make sense.
 
There is also the psychological damage. A Bronze Age society suddenly confronting interstellar civilization with technologies that look like magic, and science that they don’t even have the building blocks of the building blocks yet-will disorient, confuse, stun, upset, and shock the culture in question. “Oh wait the sun isn’t a deity that provides warmth to the crops, it’s just a big ball of fire”, “our world isn’t a great table at the gods’ footstool”-the effects of shattering the beliefs of the population, are bad enough there are also inter generational affects, and the obvious fact you have to bring the culture up to speed on science and technology is just a massive pain to deal with.

It is actually traumatic, and will cause no small amount of social crisis, spiritual crisis, a crisis of political authority, among other things.

Obviously the federation doesn’t want civilizations to remain in this state forever-they believe that scientific and technical progress should occur organically, that is without external interference beyond the world itself. That allows the society to change and grow with it, and yes that means wars, as ideas and values are spread, fought over, territories unified, laws codified, etc…

This is “natural” in the sense it happens without a more powerful artificial presence affecting it. It is the world and civilization as a distinct entity or system evolving on its own.

Is there are a lot of suffering in this process? Yes. And one can make an argument that “natural development of society is outweighed by preventing suffering”-which fine, make that argument. But then you are responsible for that civilization’s uplifting, and shepherding them to the stars.

And that is both a massive investment and extremely presumptuous and paternalistic.
 
I saw on Twitter Takai called Clarence Thomas a “clown in blackface”. It’s funny watching the hard left liberals go full racist over Roe vs Wade.
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Titan Lithos said:
You never know. That bronze age civilization you opt to save may spawn Galaxy Hitler...

At least, that's how Marina Sirtis once explained it at a convention...
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Also, according to Marina Sirtis, Conservatives can't (by their very nature) can't be fans of Star Trek. Remember when she said that?
 
Shamash said:
The Federation is indeed like the Borg, it conquers through its irresistible optimism, idealism and warmth, instead of force of arms. Assimilates through shared pleasure, and understanding, bringing even enemies to its fold through the unconquerable will of its vision.
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I prefer the Borg and the Dominion as the dark versions of the Federation rather than the Terran Empire and its knockoff that was in Picard S2: the Confederation. It's no surprise the writers didn't know what a confederation actually is. They just think of the American Civil War and say, "Oh yeah. They were the bad guys."
SteelPlatedHeart said:
I saw on Twitter Takai called Clarence Thomas a “clown in blackface”. It’s funny watching the hard left liberals go full racist over Roe vs Wade.
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To be fair, that is an old clip of Takei however the point from the tweet still stands.
 
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Shamash said:
Unpopular opinion but I kinda like how fanatical the federation is about the PD. They basically do not want to "exploit" or otherwise interfere with the course of less advanced civilizations at any price-both for generally anti colonial moral reasons and because of the enormous responsbility shepherding an unready species to the cosmos entails.

This means they are willing to let species die as opposed to interfering with their course of development(they also dislike disrupting the natural progression of a society-without external interference).

It gives a good culture clash between the viewers and the characters/the world on screen.
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I dunno, they seem to ignore the thing pretty frequently. Like the time they discovered that world full of half naked people who execute anyone caught breaking any law in certain zones. Yes, they had a weird God machine in orbit, but I don't think anyone knew that. And they certainly didn't seem to be a spacefaring people, let alone warp capable.

Didn't stop them from going down and trying to get laid.
 
Shamash said:
There is also the psychological damage. A Bronze Age society suddenly confronting interstellar civilization with technologies that look like magic, and science that they don’t even have the building blocks of the building blocks yet-will disorient, confuse, stun, upset, and shock the culture in question. “Oh wait the sun isn’t a deity that provides warmth to the crops, it’s just a big ball of fire”, “our world isn’t a great table at the gods’ footstool”-the effects of shattering the beliefs of the population, are bad enough there are also inter generational affects, and the obvious fact you have to bring the culture up to speed on science and technology is just a massive pain to deal with.

It is actually traumatic, and will cause no small amount of social crisis, spiritual crisis, a crisis of political authority, among other things.

Obviously the federation doesn’t want civilizations to remain in this state forever-they believe that scientific and technical progress should occur organically, that is without external interference beyond the world itself. That allows the society to change and grow with it, and yes that means wars, as ideas and values are spread, fought over, territories unified, laws codified, etc…

This is “natural” in the sense it happens without a more powerful artificial presence affecting it. It is the world and civilization as a distinct entity or system evolving on its own.

Is there are a lot of suffering in this process? Yes. And one can make an argument that “natural development of society is outweighed by preventing suffering”-which fine, make that argument. But then you are responsible for that civilization’s uplifting, and shepherding them to the stars.

And that is both a massive investment and extremely presumptuous and paternalistic.
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But what of alien civilization that can't progress? What if this alien planet didn't produce the necessary die off to create fossil fuels that push forward the industrial revolution? What if the planet doesn't have iron (or it's so deep in the mantle it can't be reached) that prevents the most basic of technological advancement? Should these aliens be forced to live and die on their planet due to circumstances out of their control?

What if these aliens pulled a Ferengi and didn't engage in slavery and genocide? Should humanity who has done this really judge the alien?
 
Saturnalia-1918 said:
But what of alien civilization that can't progress? What if this alien planet didn't produce the necessary die off to create fossil fuels that push forward the industrial revolution? What if the planet doesn't have iron (or it's so deep in the mantle it can't be reached) that prevents the most basic of technological advancement? Should these aliens be forced to live and die on their planet due to circumstances out of their control?

What if these aliens pulled a Ferengi and didn't engage in slavery and genocide? Should humanity who has done this really judge the alien?
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I think part of it is, ok so you help this planet, what about the next seven billion planets? When and where do you stop without it immediately turning into an entirely subjective choice about who lives and who dies?
 
Saturnalia-1918 said:
But what of alien civilization that can't progress? What if this alien planet didn't produce the necessary die off to create fossil fuels that push forward the industrial revolution? What if the planet doesn't have iron (or it's so deep in the mantle it can't be reached) that prevents the most basic of technological advancement? Should these aliens be forced to live and die on their planet due to circumstances out of their control?

What if these aliens pulled a Ferengi and didn't engage in slavery and genocide? Should humanity who has done this really judge the alien?
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Those are hard cases-sapience where the environment is simply not conducive to getting into space (high gravity, lack of resources, perhaps being marine or avian based, etc...), or developing more sophisticated technology. In these cases, it's basically charity with all the condescension and burden that comes with that.

That said, in a star trek esque universe-where sapient life abounds, there are going to be plenty of worlds where this is the case, or at least the path to FTL is much harder-should the Federation offer assistance to all of them out of pity? That's going to stretch resources, time and manpower, not to mention also very paternalistic-imagine being a civilization that has tried rocket travel, but your planet simply is too high gravity or otherwise it's just not reachable-only to have an alien civilization come from the stars and hold your hand.

The actual progress is never earned, it is never commensurate with the social development, and that species will either have massive resentments or an inferiority complex or worse depending on psychology and other factors. I suppose an argument in the trek context could be made for subspace communications or whenever they observe alien life from their own telescopes. But the fundamental point remains-the Federation despite being associated with luxury space communism takes a "you make it on your own feet" philosophy to either reaching for the stars or not.
 
In First Contact, the Enterprise was orbiting Earth undetected. Not even the Vulcans noticed them. Starfleet ships are able to pass undetected, so they can absolutely do some work like stop an asteroid from destroying a civilization without being noticed. The people living on ground will never know.

What's even the qualification that Starfleet considers for a civilization to be "ready" for contact? Once you achieve capability for interstellar travel? Well, that sounds even more classicist to me. "Oh, pfff, you can't even go to stars? You all deserve to die!"
 
Tasty Tatty said:
In First Contact, the Enterprise was orbiting Earth undetected. Not even the Vulcans noticed them. Starfleet ships are able to pass undetected, so they can absolutely do some work like stop an asteroid from destroying a civilization without being noticed. The people living on ground will never know.

What's even the qualification that Starfleet considers for a civilization to be "ready" for contact? Once you achieve capability for interstellar travel? Well, that sounds even more classicist to me. "Oh, pfff, you can't even go to stars? You all deserve to die!"
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I mean that COULD be an interesting story there: that starfleet won't interfere with places, but it will "protect" them as long as it can do so without being seen. (like knocking aside asteroids) That's partly why I have a soft spot for Generations, because a pre-industrial world is saved in it by the crew without them ever knowing how close they came to destruction.

(it's also why I have a special hatred for Into Darkness because the opening "rescue" is so dumb - the enterprise could have saved the civilization EASILY without any of the primitives ever seeing or knowing about them but no, we have to park the ship in the ocean for.... reasons???)
 
FTL or warp travel seems to be the jump off point. The reasoning is sooner or later they will run into the interstellar community, so best introduce them to it when they can actually reach other worlds.

I suspect it varies in more anomalous cases-inter dimensional travel or beings, non standard FTL, the remnants or cast aways of lost civilizations, etc… in such cases-I suspect contact is made on a case by case basis. Hopefully with lots of consultation before doing so.

But in Star Trek warp travel seems to be the norm for FTL-though there are a lot of other FTL methods beyond the basic warp drive. Many that are being researched by the federation in the late 24th century-transwarp, slipstream, artificial wormholes, etc…
 
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