Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Everyone agreed it should have been a two-parter.

Benny's in a fey mood (to borrow a phrase from Dwarf Fortress), so he's not in his right mind. Benny's breakdown at the end is rightly laughed at, because it comes out of nowhere and it is way over the top. I always wonder about the wisdom of casting Rene as the 'villain'. He seems to earnestly believe that a race war is imminent and you almost feel bad for his naivete.

The scenes with the detectives are more effective. Very cleverly Brooks films the scene from Benny's eyes, so it is the audience who are getting beat up. It's great how the authority figures start to resemble Dukat and Weyoun, as the blows rain down on Benny.
Well uh... the race war kind of hurried itself up in the 60s, so...

Also the NYC police force was actually integrated at the time of Far Beyond, not like all cops aren't bastards anyway. It's very good art, but like a lot of TV, it falls apart if you really think about it.
 
Well uh... the race war kind of hurried itself up in the 60s, so...
Jim Crow will do that.

Now that you mention it, there are two conflicting stories going on here. First is Ira Behr's love letter to pulp magazine writers. Avery comes in with his history lessons.

It's not the worst period episode they ever did. It's worth it to see the characters sans fard. Brock Peters as the street preacher was fun.
 
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Is it wrong that after rewatching DS9's "Far Beyond The Stars", the message today comes across less as "Black writer gets treated like shit by a racist society" and more as "Social justice zealot uses insinuations of racism to force his editor to publish a story no-one would otherwise be interested in, and ends up unwittingly fucking over the magazine's entire staff in the process"?

I thought it was kinda dumb to base the plot around the idea that racist crackers were keeping the black man down in fictional stories about rocket ships and ray guns.

In the real 1950's, as now, the kind of people who buy sci fi stories didn't particularly give a shit about the racial or other characteristics of the author, and probably would have no idea unless you went out of your way to tell them. One of the biggest selling books of the decade literally (ok not literally but figuratively) ends with "oh yeah BTW Johnny is a FILIPINO 😏😏😏" and still nobody cared. Sci fi has always been predominantly created and consumed by people who were on the fringes of society in some way or another, it's the genre of freaks and geeks after all. There's no suspiciously blond 80's bad guy movie chads gatekeeping stories about aliens, and there never was. Maybe Jewish nerds with pocket protectors.

I didn't care for Sisko's Benny persona because he's such a self-pitying whiny faggot and is the exact opposite to how Sisko usually is (when he isn't getting a weird rageboner over a Frank Sinatra ripoff hologram), but it's TV so we're supposed to learn Important Lessons about how Racism Is Bad whenever the producers can tear themselves away from sexually harrassing female employees for long enough to enrich us with their courageous moral principles.

It was as heavy handed and goofy as a typical episode of Quantum Leap, but compared to the shit that gets on TV now it was like Masterpiece Theater.
 
I thought it was kinda dumb to base the plot around the idea that racist crackers were keeping the black man down in fictional stories about rocket ships and ray guns.

In the real 1950's, as now, the kind of people who buy sci fi stories didn't particularly give a shit about the racial or other characteristics of the author, and probably would have no idea unless you went out of your way to tell them. One of the biggest selling books of the decade literally (ok not literally but figuratively) ends with "oh yeah BTW Johnny is a FILIPINO 😏😏😏" and still nobody cared. Sci fi has always been predominantly created and consumed by people who were on the fringes of society in some way or another, it's the genre of freaks and geeks after all. There's no suspiciously blond 80's bad guy movie chads gatekeeping stories about aliens, and there never was. Maybe Jewish nerds with pocket protectors.

I didn't care for Sisko's Benny persona because he's such a self-pitying whiny faggot and is the exact opposite to how Sisko usually is (when he isn't getting a weird rageboner over a Frank Sinatra ripoff hologram), but it's TV so we're supposed to learn Important Lessons about how Racism Is Bad whenever the producers can tear themselves away from sexually harrassing female employees for long enough to enrich us with their courageous moral principles.

It was as heavy handed and goofy as a typical episode of Quantum Leap, but compared to the shit that gets on TV now it was like Masterpiece Theater.
To be ever so slightly fair to the episode, which I dont exactly hold in high regard due to the pomposity and self importance it radiated like it was a season 1 TNG episode, the plot point of the editor clamping down on an inoffensive plot point like this was based on a real event that was not exactly uncommon during the era.

Basically during the heyday of the various pop culture industry imposed "morality codes" of the 30s to the 60s like the comics code authority and the hayes code for movies, there was a veritable swarm of self interested little authoritarian shitsnitches looking for any and all excuses to screech about obscenity in order to justify their paycheques and to get them ever greater prestige in their excuse of a career.

Furthermore you also had vast numbers of spineless and chinless and dickless producer types who at the slightest noise of controversy would scream in horror and hammer down on anything and everything that might cause bad press or a publicised outrage since they were dumb enough to believe the early PR conmen they hired to market their shit.

Now add to this the performatively extreme and obnoxious supporters of Jim Crow and segregation who each wanted to be seen as the most hardcore and strident fanatics of the cause, and who liked to throw public shitfits at the drop of a hat the moment they saw something they could spin as "promoting miscegenation" or whatever and who actively and aggressively tried to spin themselves as representing each and every man woman and child in the south (while also going out of their way to make it taboo in the south to speak against them)

What you have is a combination that meant that a handful of faux radical shitbags with absolutely inane standards that were entirely out of whack with any segment of the population, coupled with ultra cynical and opportunistic industry morality censors who would proactively start screaming the moment they found something they decided was more offensive than gay faggot fisting, and both of these groups preyed upon the minds of terrified producers who would then go into a frenzy trying to censor shit that had been the uncontroversial norm for decades, but they decided was nevertheless an unacceptable risk because loudmouths with a media megaphone and their own hired decency gestapo said so.

Also if you really want to feel bleak, swap out some of the specifics in the factors and combination I outlined above, and see how well it fits with current year.....
 
I never really liked Far Beyond the Stars. I wouldn't be surprised if Marc Zicree wrote it as a script for a movie that couldn't be made and it got rewritten as an episode of DS9. The story doesn't feel like a Star Trek episode.
According to Memory Alpha, Zicree's original pitch had Jake sent back in time to the 1950s by some aliens who wanted to understand the concept of racism by seeing how Benny was treated differently to the magazine's other writers.

In fairness to Behr and co., what they turned the story into at least gave it a slightly more complex message - having Sisko be ready to throw in the towel on his command at the start of the episode makes the moral a little less "racism is bad" and a little more "you can't give up fighting for a just cause, no matter how hard things get, and here's an example of another person who carried on fighting in the face of adversity."

The real problem is that Benny Russell is neither a real-life historical figure, nor a historical figure in the fictional world of Star Trek, so we actually have no idea what Benny's reward was for his struggles, beyond ending up as a crippled, jobless man at a time when he'd have seriously struggled to get anything beyond menial work. In fact, Zicree's original version was actually better in that regard, since it apparently ended with Jake looking up Benny's story, and finding out that he was eventually able to publish it during the Civil Rights era and made a fuckton of money from it.
 
When I was younger I used to dislike the ultra autistic serious uber fan trekkies who didn't let anyone lesser than them enjoy Star Trek.

Recently (thanks to COVID and nostalgia, I suppose) I have gotten very much back into Trek (though does it ever leave you if you grew up on fond memories of it?) and am appalled to find that the new obnoxious fan-types are the ones screeching and raging at you for not accepting that "look this character is totally transgender, he joked abt having a womb" and "you are literally racist for not enjoying DIS" and so on.

I mean I wasn't surprised per se, but now I sure as hell miss the old ultra autists (hell even the crazy slash fans from the 90s were more sane back then), I'm sure they still exist but the performative political activism crowd is so loud its hard to find your average Trek enjoyer. (:_(

Obviously Trek has always tried to represent a tolerant future which is one of its greatest assets IMO, but just like the wokies put their historical revisionism on history and the gay community they do it to media too. Yes we know Spock and Kirk essentially spawned slash fan culture, no that doesn't mean that Star Trek has ~queered~ Media for decades.

That being said they all worship Far Beyond The Stars, and while I think that episode is fun and has some interesting points it really is more of a "historical homage" than an actual good retroperspective. And these people take this episode at face value too, lol.

(Also I've always wondered why the bigotry only seems to affect Sisko's character? They did touch on misogyny briefly with Kira's equivalent, but what about Bashir? He clearly isn't "white passing", as they call it. I'm not American so I probably can't really understand the nuance here but I would've guessed that an Arab man also would face some struggles because of his race? Or is it because hes English as well? It just seems odd to me...)
 
Recently (thanks to COVID and nostalgia, I suppose) I have gotten very much back into Trek (though does it ever leave you if you grew up on fond memories of it?) and am appalled to find that the new obnoxious fan-types are the ones screeching and raging at you for not accepting that "look this character is totally transgender, he joked abt having a womb" and "you are literally racist for not enjoying DIS" and so on.
They make the turbo autist elitists of the past, as smelly and neckbearded as they were, look positively cool in comparison. Of course, they're even more smelly, as often as not have neckbeards, but are in dresses with lipstick smeared all over their faces as if they were a four year old who got into mom's makeup.

Unfortunately, those guys, the ones who Shatner famously told to "get a life" in an SNL skit that more or less represents his real attitude, were the gatekeepers who should have kept these troons and other degenerates the fuck out.
 
According to Memory Alpha, Zicree's original pitch had Jake sent back in time to the 1950s by some aliens who wanted to understand the concept of racism by seeing how Benny was treated differently to the magazine's other writers.

In fairness to Behr and co., what they turned the story into at least gave it a slightly more complex message - having Sisko be ready to throw in the towel on his command at the start of the episode makes the moral a little less "racism is bad" and a little more "you can't give up fighting for a just cause, no matter how hard things get, and here's an example of another person who carried on fighting in the face of adversity."

The real problem is that Benny Russell is neither a real-life historical figure, nor a historical figure in the fictional world of Star Trek, so we actually have no idea what Benny's reward was for his struggles, beyond ending up as a crippled, jobless man at a time when he'd have seriously struggled to get anything beyond menial work. In fact, Zicree's original version was actually better in that regard, since it apparently ended with Jake looking up Benny's story, and finding out that he was eventually able to publish it during the Civil Rights era and made a fuckton of money from it.
I think the uncertain fate of Benny is fine and always thought is was meant to reflect the similar uncertainty Sisko had about the future of the Federation given this episode is at a point where they're getting completely whipped by the Dominion. I guess I read the message as more of a "its still worth it to fight for a cause that you believe in even if you ultimately fail" type beat rather than something hopeful and uplifting.
 
I heard Lower Decks was kind of OK and watched the first episode. I feel like I've been somewhat mislead after watching the first episode, because there's just this Mary Sue character there right out of the gate. Is the whole series just STRONG BLACK WAMMAN over and over again?
 
It seemed as though Far Beyond the Stars placed "woke" Sisko [for lack of a better term] in a 1950s US setting because the writers were bound and determined to follow up on the racial element of Bada-Bing, Bada-Bang but realized that his meltdown over the crew's enjoyment of the holographic representation of 1960s Vegas [because it didn't represent a "true" picture of how "our people" were treated at the time] seemed so incredibly out-of-character for a guy who, in addition to being entirely calm, cool and collected the vast majority of the time, had never shown a hint of being any kind of bent out of shape over racial animosity that, by that point, was literally hundreds of years in the past.

It was also weird because such a message could have been inserted - but wasn't - at any time in the show's run as a warning against actual racial bias on display the show's twenty-fourth century setting.

[EDIT: I fucked up; Far Beyond the Stars was an early-mid season six episode, where Bada-Bing, Bada-Bang was the fifteenth episode of the seventh season.]
 
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Also I've always wondered why the bigotry only seems to affect Sisko's character?
That's Avery at work. Funny how this thread is so protective of him, when he's just as quarrelsome as Shatner/Stewart.
I think the uncertain fate of Benny is fine and always thought is was meant to reflect the similar uncertainty Sisko had about the future of the Federation given this episode is at a point where they're getting completely whipped by the Dominion.
In "A Time to Stand", Joseph wonders how, if space is so wondrous and infinite, why people can't just leave each other alone? In "Pale Moonight", the Romulans are portrayed as deep space "cold warriors." In Insurrection, the So'Na are described in dialogue as petty thugs” with "petroleum" reserves.

Always eerie to hear an old phrase in a new context.
 
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...he's just as quarrelsome and meddlesome as Shatner/Stewart.

Maybe I've just not seen him engage that way publicly, but despite the fact that he's as opinionated as the next person can you cite an example of him being as obnoxious as either Shatner or Stewart?
 
It seemed as though Far Beyond the Stars placed "woke" Sisko [for lack of a better term] in a 1950s US setting because the writers were bound and determined to follow up on the racial element of Bada-Bing, Bada-Bang but realized that his meltdown over the crew's enjoyment of the holographic representation of 1960s Vegas [because it didn't represent a "true" picture of how "our people" were treated at the time] seemed so incredibly out-of-character for a guy who, in addition to being entirely calm, cool and collected the vast majority of the time, had never shown a hint of being any kind of bent out of shape over racial animosity that, by that point, was literally hundreds of years in the past.

It was also weird because such a message could have been inserted - but wasn't - at any time in the show's run as a warning against actual racial bias on display the show's twenty-fourth century setting.
Yeah, that line in Bada-Bing Bada-Bang was so out-of-place and out-of-character. Sisko would have never said that.

Unfortunately, those guys, the ones who Shatner famously told to "get a life" in an SNL skit that more or less represents his real attitude, were the gatekeepers who should have kept these troons and other degenerates the fuck out.
Speaking about that SNL skit, it seems like Roddenberry's son didn't like it.
 
Yeah, that line in Bada-Bing Bada-Bang was so out-of-place and out-of-character. Sisko would have never said that.
Siskos uncharacteristic sensivity to racial issues and his lulzy rage (regarding black humans, only, of course) makes me wonder how much easier it would've been for Cardassia/The Dominion to win the war if someone had just taught Dukat the gamer word... "Spam Captain Sisko over subspace communications, Weyoun! But make it seperate messages! Now, start with an N-"
 
Speaking about that SNL skit, it seems like Roddenberry's son didn't like it.
He has as much credibility as Brian Herbert.
Siskos lulzy rage (regarding black humans, only, of course)
Not to be 'that guy': remember he threw himself in the hotbox in defiance of the "Paradise" cult leader.

Moving the African art over to his space station digs: it would seem to imply that Ben identifies with the Bajoran freedom struggle. Remember that he admitted to a degree of sympathy for Maquis, as well. Sisko may be "oversensitive" to racial issues, but at least he walks the talk.
 
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Maybe I've just not seen him engage that way publicly, but despite the fact that he's as opinionated as the next person can you cite an example of him being as obnoxious as either Shatner or Stewart?
The worst thing he did that I know of was have them change the ending of the show, if I recall they initially wanted it to be clear that Sisko was never coming back but Brooks had them change it because he thought it enforced some racial stereotype about black men abandoning their families. This is pretty stupid since hes mostly portrayed as being a great father on the show, It lessens the impact of the ending and completely contradicts the shit the wormhole fuckers had been telling him about finding no rest on bajor yadda yadda.
Yeah, that line in Bada-Bing Bada-Bang was so out-of-place and out-of-character. Sisko would have never said that.
I can forgive it because this episode does take place after Far Beyond and it seems reasonable that a dude from the post-race 24th century who has probably never experienced racism before might be affected by something like that and have an unusual sensitivity to it afterwards. It's interesting how he seems to have no reaction to essentially being racially profiled in Past Tense so its likely this is disposition that comes about directly as a result of that dream/vision.
 
For some reason I thought Far Beyond... came later, but apparently it was Bada-Bing... It seems odd that a campy episode like that was shoehorned into the middle of the final season just before the ten-episode war-end arc.
Ira was just bedazzled by James Darren. He wanted to give "Jimmy" a career revival.

Whatever.
 
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