Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Exceptionally Exceptional said:
One of the greatest missed opportunities DS9 ever had was not having Garak and Luther Sloan interact even once. An entire episode could be built around just the 2 of them talking.
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Who said Sloan wasn't Garak in disguise fucking with Bashir at first? Things got out of hand so Garak had to find a random human and brainwash him into thinking he was a Section 31 operative.
 
Molly White's Breast Milk said:
Who said Sloan wasn't Garak in disguise fucking with Bashir at first? Things got out of hand so Garak had to find a random human and brainwash him into thinking he was a Section 31 operative.
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It's honestly funny that Garak did more to help the Federation during the war than those useless LARPers over at Section 31. Starfleet Intelligence is a joke.
 
Great President of McHell said:
It's honestly funny that Garak did more to help the Federation during the war than those useless LARPers over at Section 31. Starfleet Intelligence is a joke.
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Starfleet Intelligence were dumb enough to send a balding, middle-aged man, a MILFy but otherwise of similar age woman, and Worf to commit acts of espionage on a Cardassian facility. Instead of sending Worf, maybe Data, and two supernumaries.
 
Forgetful Gynn said:
Yuck.
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To be fair, this case design does evoke the spirit of Star Trek: Picard by managing to be both gay AND retarded. :suffering:
Exceptionally Exceptional said:
Honestly, I thought it was less "dark and edgy" and more "what happens when you take this optimistic view of a more enlightened humanity and then violently test their principals in a conflict where diplomacy isn't really an option against an enemy willing to cross any line we might set for ourselves
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Yeah, DS9 wasn't dark and edgy. BSG and GOT were. The final destination of dark & edgy is Grimdark - which got horribly overused in the 00's, and is about people being miserable and futile - depressing deaths. Because ultimately, cynicism leads to nihilism.

DS9 was still about hope and optimism and empathy, but it was set in the bad neighborhood of the galaxy where you have to lock your starship at night. If it was one of them edgy shows Jake would grow up to hate his Dad and Nog would've died on that Poorly Lit Studio planet.

But Jake didn't hate his Dad, and Nog survived, and DS9's writers usually delivered something more cynical shows can't: catharsis.
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It's funny watching Keith Decandido simp for Kurtmzan so hard and still not get one pity offer for a novel / comic / etc

For context this guy was big in Trek nook and the odd comic tie in stuff late nineties , early 2000s

This screenshot was pulled from a 400+ comment thread where he was shitting on the Orville

:story:

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Kerr Avon said:
It's funny watching Keith Decandido simp for Kurtmzan so hard and still not get one pity offer for a novel / comic / etc

For context this guy was big in Trek nook and the odd comic tie in stuff late nineties , early 2000s

This screenshot was pulled from a 400+ comment thread where he was shitting on the Orville

:story:

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>"DISCOVERY season 4 is the most purely STAR TREK season of a TV show that has ever been done."
Fucking lol. Oh muh lawd, real tawk! Imagine calling whatever Kurtzman farts out the most loyal to anything Star Trek, when all he does is stupid fanfic-tier bullshit. Seth MacFarlane is much better as a Star Trek writer and he's proven that with The Orville.
 
Precisely why I love Ds9.

It’s the only post TOS trek show that actually went to test the values of the good guys to the limit.

As great as TNG was, it was much safer in comparison. I don’t mean peril because the enterprise crew were in danger all the time, but them actually pushing their beliefs to the limit. Which did happen, but rarely.

Q, for example, was one of the few people that actually put Picard out of his comfort zone, and even made him beg for his life.

Incidentally this was also an issue with Voyager, but I digress.

Perhaps Sisko wasn’t the wise guy Picard was. But, unlike Picard, he was pushed into many situations where there just weren’t any easy answers. Picard is very much a peace time captain. And his role was, usually, preaching federation values over the obviously evil or misguided aliens.

The dominion, the bajorans, the cardassians, and the Maqui, actually forced the federation and Sisko to make hard moral choices.

This is why I was very disappointed with the Picard Tv show. When they said they would “humble“ Picard I wanted them to make him deal with what Sisko deal with.

Instead the best the hacks could think of was ”HuMILliate the PRiVIleGEd WhiTHE MAle”.

Sisko is every bit the good guy Picard Is, if not more so, in my book.

Picard is the kind of person that would rather sleep with a clean conscience even if that may cost his own life. Which, don’t get me wrong, is admirable.

But, Sisko is the kind of person that would rather sacrifice his self respect and even his own soul for the good of others.


Picard would have never done what Sisko did. He would have remained the ideal Starfleet captain. But he might have doomed the alpha quadrant in the process.

That is what sets apart Ds9 over Voyager, and TNG.
 
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Anime Goddess said:
Picard would have never done what Sisko did. He would have remained the ideal Starfleet captain. But he might have doomed the alpha quadrant in the process.
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I think if it was something that was vital to ensure the survival of the Federation, Picard would have gone through it in the end, though he would have been far harsher on himself after the fact than Sisko was. He might be for the most part a more principled and upstanding captain than Sisko, but his mind is capable of going to darker places, as First Contact showed.

Had that scenario played out in Voyager, however, I'm guessing Janeway would have just said "Prime Directive, bitch!", after which Tom or Seven would have carried out the plan, and then gotten a speech from Janeway at the end about how they had let her down even if they technically saved the day.
 
Am I the only one that thinks the Prime Directive sucks? I meant it makes sense in a lot of cases like "don't give the primitive barbarians phasers" and shit, but when you see a species who are about to be destroyed through no fault of their own how the fuck do you just ignore your conscience screaming at you?

Even Janeway pointed out in Voyager that it kinda felt shitty to be on the other side of that principal when an advanced alien race refused to share their space folding technology with us.
 
Exceptionally Exceptional said:
Am I the only one that thinks the Prime Directive sucks? I meant it makes sense in a lot of cases like "don't give the primitive barbarians phasers" and shit, but when you see a species who are about to be destroyed through no fault of their own how the fuck do you just ignore your conscience screaming at you?

Even Janeway pointed out in Voyager that it kinda felt shitty to be on the other side of that principal when an advanced alien race refused to share their space folding technology with us.
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I think its fine when applied to technology. It does get pretty murky when its about saving another race. I can see abstaining from intervening in civil war, but why not help a race that has their planet about to explode? (Which they eventually do because Data convinces Picard, but he didn't want to originally). Way I see it is the prime directive is to prevent species from getting an easy way out of mistakes and that they have to grow. For example they have to realize on their own why civil war, polluting your own planet, etc. are wrong because they won't really learn their lesson if some alien comes down and says its bad. But if it's truly no fault of their own its not like there's anything to learn from it. "Shouldn't have evolved on a doomed planet lol". That one episode with the really stupid aliens who just stole a ship and technology is a great example of why you don't share technology though
 
kūhaku said:
I think its fine when applied to technology. It does get pretty murky when its about saving another race. I can see abstaining from intervening in civil war, but why not help a race that has their planet about to explode? (Which they eventually do because Data convinces Picard, but he didn't want to originally). Way I see it is the prime directive is to prevent species from getting an easy way out of mistakes and that they have to grow. For example they have to realize on their own why civil war, polluting your own planet, etc. are wrong because they won't really learn their lesson if some alien comes down and says its bad. But if it's truly no fault of their own its not like there's anything to learn from it. "Shouldn't have evolved on a doomed planet lol". That one episode with the really stupid aliens who just stole a ship and technology is a great example of why you don't share technology though
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I agree for the most part but going off this logic would require delegating who is and isn't "deserving" of annihilation. Is a species who pollutes their planet just as guilty if they are completely ignorant to its consequences? If a couple of powerful people make a stupid decision that jeopardizes their survival should the whole population suffer for it?
"Shouldn't have evolved on a doomed planet lol" can be just as easily applied to the planet embroiled in a massive world war as it can be to the planet with an asteroid heading towards it, Since you can't really apply universal guilt or innocence to billions of people. Even though it does seem really cruel at times I can understand the necessity of preventing the most powerful faction in the alpha quadrant from becoming the arbiter of which lesser races live and die.

Not to harp on nu trek too much, but it really annoys me to see the contempt it has for the prime directive specifically. It just comes off at the writers being pissed that they can't write starfleet flying around being galactic superheros. In reality the federation seems to mostly just protect their own interests and occasionally help out if it's requested of them. I guess thats all you really can do if you don't want to graduate to unquestioned rule of the quadrant like the dominion.

I know it's a controversial policy but the amount of times it's been beneficial outweigh the amount of rogue asteroids and random planet core explosions that they encounter, and honestly most of the time it gets violated for an understandable reason (like in pen pals), starfleet will just let it slide.
 
The latest season finale of The Orville gave a pretty good overview as to why the Prime Directive in general is the right policy, namely that giving advanced technology to people and just relying on them to do the right thing with it probably isn't going to end well. It's just that towards the end of TNG's run (and continuing throughout Voyager's), the franchise seemed to lose sight of what the directive was actually supposed to be about.
 
Too Many Catgirls said:
Haven't checked the Star Trek thread in a while.

Looks like Star Trek still sucks. Oh well.
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It sucks less than it used to, that's the best thing that can be said. Strange New Worlds has actually been relatively decent so far, Lower Decks is okayish if you can take it for what it is, Picard has one or two moments of promise that get buried under virtue signalling and generally bad storytelling, and Discovery is just completely irredeemable horseshit. (Haven't seen Prodigy, so I can't comment on that one).
 
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