Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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William Murderface said:
Fair enough. Although there would need to be a reason given they couldn't just bombard them. Like they're dug in under a city or under a mountain made of Supertoughmaterialite.
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Series Space: Above and Beyond done it perfectly with its 22nd episode Sugar Dirt.
Episode synopsis
A planetary invasion by Earth military forces is ambushed and turns into a military disaster. There is no air support and no ground reinforcement as the supporting fleet, among it the USS Saratoga, is forced to abandon 25,000 stranded troops in order to launch another assault, which could ultimately save millions of lives, upon a more strategic planet. Before departing, Commodore Ross issues instructions: "You're strongly encouraged, but not ordered to do so, to keep engaging the enemy. If however the situation becomes untenable, you're authorized to surrender. Semper fidelis.". Among the scattered, abandoned, and demoralized troops are the 58th, who are struggling to survive.
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Hey Johnny Bravo said:
I'm sort of handwaving the Ktracel White thing as either "they have a really big stockpile" or "they figured out a way to replicate it." Naval bombardment is ruled out due to environmental collateral damage and they're supposed to be dug in to the point that even bombardment might not get them all. There are currently bunkers in existence that can survive a direct nuclear blast, so this isn't too farfetched. You don't even need adamantium or whatever supertoughmaterialite to make that work.
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In the episode O'Brien and Bashir get trapped on a planet with Jem'Hadar we see a moment where one of them declares he should be "put down" after an injury so there would be more white for the rest. So you could have both sides examining issues like the Jem'Hadar are looking at euthanasia - maybe some kind of lotto system for which one dies to stretch their supply out longer.
 
Flexo said:
In the episode O'Brien and Bashir get trapped on a planet with Jem'Hadar we see a moment where one of them declares he should be "put down" after an injury so there would be more white for the rest. So you could have both sides examining issues like the Jem'Hadar are looking at euthanasia - maybe some kind of lotto system for which one dies to stretch their supply out longer.
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Actually, that gives me the idea for a story where Jem'Hadar agree to surrender - but only if the Federation kills them right after as sort of honorable euthanasia.
 
Also: DS9 hinted at an underlying conflict between Gamma-Jem'hadar and Alpha-Jem'hadar. The latter see the former as space boomers that got the easy life and getting their white for basically free, while they have seen nothing but hardship and glorious combat.
 
So how did the inner city blacks kick the crack habit Jem'Hadar free themselves from Shape-shifting Glowies' gift of addiction?
 
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Also: DS9 hinted at an underlying conflict between Gamma-Jem'hadar and Alpha-Jem'hadar. The latter see the former as space boomers that got the easy life and getting their white for basically free, while they have seen nothing but hardship and glorious combat.
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That and also the founders making the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar more genetically aggressive as they were actively fighting a massive war against almost the entire Alpha Quadrant.

The Gamma-Jem'hadar were probably like that too back when the founders were expanding rapidly and then were scaled back on their aggressiveness as they had them go around doing what was essentially security checks on the all the planets they had conquered.
 
Chilson said:
That and also the founders making the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar more genetically aggressive as they were actively fighting a massive war against almost the entire Alpha Quadrant.
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They're fighting really just the Federation, Klingon and later Romulan Empires, all three of which located mostly in the Beta Quadrant. Bajor was the western most point of Federation expansion in the Alpha Quadrant at the time of the wormhole discovery.
Chilson said:
The Gamma-Jem'hadar were probably like that too back when the founders were expanding rapidly and then were scaled back on their aggressiveness as they had them go around doing what was essentially security checks on the all the planets they had conquered.
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The Alpha Jem'Hadar were created primarily to need and use less Ketracel White than the Gamma Jem'Hadar. As at the time the entrance to the wormhole completely block due to the minefield placed there. Cutting off all means of resupply and reenforcement of everything, especially the White.
 
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Fuck the Borg, give me Tellarite, Andorian, Trill or Bolian badguys.
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I mean... Discovery's third season had the Andorians playing second fiddle to the Orions, if that's any consolation.
Hey Johnny Bravo said:
The Borg were great when they came out because they were so alien, powerful, and kinda cool for the time. The make-up and costumes were elaborate and they flew giant spinning cubes. In retrospect, though, there isn't anything to do with them. They have no society, no culture, and no politics. "You will be assimilated," that's it. They're a one-trick pony and that, I suspect, is why the writers of DS9 went with the Dominion as the big bad wolf instead of the Borg.
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Another problem with the Borg is how their threat was downplayed over the years. In "Best of Both Worlds", a single Cube was enough to decimate an entire fleet of starships, but by the later seasons of Voyager, Borg vessels were dropping left and right. It's hard to make the Borg a threat when a single ship lost in the space boonies is able to take on the Borg and win.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
I will stick to STO Jem'Hadar storyline where at the end, they're free from needing Ketracel White to live and forced servitude to the Founders.
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STO is underrated.
Chilson said:
That and also the founders making the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar more genetically aggressive as they were actively fighting a massive war against almost the entire Alpha Quadrant.

The Gamma-Jem'hadar were probably like that too back when the founders were expanding rapidly and then were scaled back on their aggressiveness as they had them go around doing what was essentially security checks on the all the planets they had conquered.
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There's also the fact that the Alpha Jem'Hadar are younger, since they were just bred while the Gamma Jem'Hadar are usually older and more experienced. Remember the Jem'Hadar that DS9 recovered? It was basically uncontrollable without the white. Maybe Goran'Agar was an old Jem'Hadar, and older Jem'Hadar simply build up a tolerance that conversely tapers them off? That might explain why the Founders engineered them to live short lives.

(That might also be my dumb hand-wavey explanation, heh).
Ultraman Orb Dark said:
Another problem with the Borg is how their threat was downplayed over the years. In "Best of Both Worlds", a single Cube was enough to decimate an entire fleet of starships, but by the later seasons of Voyager, Borg vessels were dropping left and right. It's hard to make the Borg a threat when a single ship lost in the space boonies is able to take on the Borg and win.
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Yeah, they never nerfed the Dominion. The Borg... yeah, when one cube dominates an entire fleet, and then one ship takes out multiple cubes a few years later, you have to explain that.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
I will stick to STO Jem'Hadar storyline where at the end, they're free from needing Ketracel White to live and forced servitude to the Founders.
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I liked that about the Jem'Hadar, that without the White they'd still retain their engineered loyalty to the Founders... it's the Vorta that they hated and for whom the drug was meant to ensure compliance towards.
 
Hey Johnny Bravo said:
Yeah, they never nerfed the Dominion. The Borg... yeah, when one cube dominates an entire fleet, and then one ship takes out multiple cubes a few years later, you have to explain that.
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They did at least explain that the cube has assimilated Picard. So it essentially had all the Federation cheat codes.

The second cube that later shows up still holds its own against a fleet but doesn't wipe them out as bad (and then has Piacard use haxxor against them).

The tactical cube vs voyager though... that was dumb.
 
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Flexo said:
They did at least explain that the cube has assimilated Picard. So it essentially had all the Federation cheat codes.

The second cube that later shows up still holds its own against a fleet but doesn't wipe them out as bad (and then has Piacard use haxxor against them).

The tactical cube vs vpyager though... that was dumb.
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Janeway's plot armor was something else.
 
Flexo said:
The tactical cube vs vpyager though... that was dumb.
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Man, I need to fire up Armada II some time again. The only thing scarier than a tactical cube is... a tactical super cube made out of like 8 of these bad boys. Absolute fucking steamrollers.
 
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Man, I need to fire up Armada II some time again. The only thing scarier than a tactical cube is... a tactical super cube made out of like 8 of these bad boys. Absolute fucking steamrollers.
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Here you go.

That and BOF were my jam back in the day.

And yes. Many missions I worked on getting a tactical supercube then just pointed it at the enemy base.
 
Hey Johnny Bravo said:
Yeah, they never nerfed the Dominion.
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Something I liked about DS9's final arc was the writers realizing that the last five years sort of reduced the Jem'Hadar's threat factor, so they brought in the Breen to up the ante.

While the Defiant was able to take out dozens of Jem'Hadar fighters, the Breen destroyed the Defiant in their first battle.
 
Ultraman Orb Dark said:
Something I liked about DS9's final arc was the writers realizing that the last five years sort of reduced the Jem'Hadar's threat factor, so they brought in the Breen to up the ante.

While the Defiant was able to take out dozens of Jem'Hadar fighters, the Breen destroyed the Defiant in their first battle.
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I really like that they gave the Jem'Hadar depth. There was a distinct difference between Remata'Klan and Goran'Agar, but both characters made sense. The Breen were just spooky, but I really appreciate that the sound guys sampled Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music to come up with the sounds of Breen talking.
 
>Breen
Ultimately the reason why the Dominion lost by signing over what was promised to the Cardassians to them, with Damar eventually getting onto them (thanks to drunken stupors). Loved that pschyological impetus for Damar as he slowly is sidelined and devolves into a mess before he becomes a hero.
 
The Borg can be done well again but they need to be put on the backbench for a while. The lazy writing really shines through when you realize that the borgs whole thing is 'assimilate and adapt' yet since Scorpion every time they appear all they do is try put the Cube peg in the round hole.
 
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