Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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UnKillFill said:
Did they really though? Sisko is at *least* as effective at dealing with the cardies as Jellico ever was, and he manages to do it without generally acting like a dick to his own crew. He isn't always nice either. He expects a lot from those under his command, but I'm 5 seasons in to DS9, and I haven't once seen him make extreme demands of the station, and then fail to give them personell to accomplish his orders, pretty sure he never expects his crew to read his mind and know what his convoluted plans are without him even telling them either... That hasn't happened yet at any rate.
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Sisko gassed a planet and nearly got his ass beat by Eddington. Jellico likely would have been smarter about that, and perhaps would have ratted Eddington out far sooner.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
Eccleston gotten a pass from the fans, as he was honest with them from the get go. Given the way the NuWho was turning into a dumpster fire and then spiraling ever downwards with each new season and Doctor. He was/is considered the smartest actor for bailing out after his one season and staying away from the franchise since then.
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My one regret about Eccleston leaving is that he didn’t come back for the 50th.

Not exactly dying to see Matt Smith bounce off him like a theater kid but it would’ve been truly amazing to see Chris next to Tennant. No Chris? Fine, Paul McGann exists. Make him the War Doctor. Wait he's not the War Doctor? The War Doctor is actually John Hurt looking mildly confused.

Another special kept afloat by Tennant’s charisma. He does most of the heavy lifting, it seems.
 
Commissar Fuklaw said:
Data did that in that Romulan blockade episode and expected everyone to do as he ordered. Jellico was going for a mad dog in the room vibe. He was a male Pulaski that needed to shake up the status quo.
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Data definitely told his crew what their orders were, even if he didn't spend the time in the middle of a literal battle to tell them why, or explain to Picard the incredibly time sensitive thing he was doing. Not entirely the same thing, as there was no time sensitive reason why Jellico couldn't have told Troi wtf he was doing, or what he expected her to do. I do think the comparison of Jellico to Pulaski is a decent one though.
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Sisko gassed a planet and nearly got his ass beat by Eddington. Jellico likely would have been smarter about that, and perhaps would have ratted Eddington out far sooner.
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Eh, you're comparing apples to oranges. I haven't seen that episode yet on this rewatch, but ironically there is a decent chance I will get to it tonight. I'll give my opinions on that when it happens. Spoiler: I'm pretty sure I don't approve. I've never said Sisko is perfect, just that he is as effective against the Cardies as Jellico, which he is, and he isn't a dick to his own crew. Which Eddington was not at the time.)
 
Judge Holden said:
Basically at the end of the first season Captain Michelle Yeoh gets unexpectedly killed off without some retarded mutiny plot contrivance, meaning at the start of season 2 First Officer Shaniqua is now in charge by default and spends the next few episodes trying to keep shit together but very quickly finding she is out of her depth and committing a bunch of pretty serious fuckups until they limp back to Starfleet HQ, wherein she is given a dressing down and Captain Jason Isaacs takes over for a season or two until he is outed as a double agent for the Klingons or something that does not even remotely link to the fucking Mirror Universe, with a now older and wiser First Officer Shaniqua stepping up for real this time.
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Discovery actually did something along the lines of that with the First Officer needing to take command in a tense situation... only it was fucking Tilly. For some reason, after relieving Burnham of her position as First Officer, Saru made Tilly his acting First Officer despite only being an Ensign. It only got dumber when Saru decided to leave Tilly in charge of the ship while he and Burnham went away on a mission. Guess what happened when the space mafia Emerald Chain tried to hijack Discovery?
UnKillFill said:
Are you saying Jellico wasn't an asshole? Because even if I admit he wasn't "evil", he was definitely still an asshole.
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At the very least, he got Troi to stop wearing her pajamas to work.
UnKillFill said:
4. (this one is the worst) Not tell *anyone* what his actual plan was. I get making the Cardies wait around for him to show that he's the Alpha dog or whatever, but he didn't even tell his own crew what he was doing, and then he proceeded to fuck around for an hour or so in his ready room, without even telling Troi *what* he was doing, or what he expected her to do. There was no benefit to this, she wasn't even questioning him, she was just rightfully confused.
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I get he wanted to be secretive, but it wasn't like the Cardassians were wiretapping the Enterprise. Tell your crew your plan before they try pulling a Poe from Last Jedi on your ass.
Tasty Tatty said:
Starfleet merely survived the Borg attack due to plot armor and were about to enter a new war.
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Don't forget how the next time the Borg attacked, Starfleet ordered the shiny new Enterprise-E to patrol the Neutral Zone instead of helping to defend Earth.
 
It occurs to me we've kind of had this debate before. The majority of you guys think Jellico did nothing wrong and I disagree. I don't see either of us changing the other's mind, so instead have these Voyager versions of the Picard face palm meme that I've been curating over the past week or so. (Circa Season 2) I think I missed a few early on, but my friend and I are now actively looking out for them for fun... XD
1.png 2.png 3.png 4.png 5.png
Bonus: Double Q face palm
6.png
 
UnKillFill said:
It occurs to me we've kind of had this debate before. The majority of you guys think Jellico did nothing wrong and I disagree.
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It’s not that we even disagree with what you’re saying about Jellico, fine, whatever, he’s a dick, point taken, it’s just that every time you post in the Trek thread it’s about who rubbed you the wrong way. Like, you’ve done six of these now. It sounds like you're hate-watching.
 
UnKillFill said:
4. (this one is the worst) Not tell *anyone* what his actual plan was.
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No different then how in real life militaries are run; and where the lower ranks including the captain is told why on a need to know basis. Only thing the anyone needs to know is what is their current assignments are and do it.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
No different then how in real life militaries are run; and where the lower ranks including the captain is told why on a need to know basis. Only thing the anyone needs to know is what is their current assignments are and do it.
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Is "I'm doing a power play with the cardies. I'll be in my ready room for an hour or so. Make sure you don't send them in here after me, I just want to make them stew a bit on the observation deck so that I start the meeting off from a position of power," really 'need to know' information?

I guess it kind of is... because she really did need to know it to carry out his orders. It boggles the mind that he didn't think to tell her until she finally questioned him over it. Expecting your subordinates to carry out your orders is one thing, but not even telling them your orders and expecting them to somehow guess what you want is just asinine.

For better or worse, Troi was one of the highest ranked crewmen on the ship. If he couldn't trust her with the most basic aspects of his plan, then he really couldn't trust anybody.
 
He also didn't know her at that point. Is she the kind to blab or give subtle hints to the opposition, even if she doesn't do it intentionally? Is she the kind of officer who doesn't say anything to anyone unless she absolutely has to? Is she the kind of officer who plays politics and is always looking for a play of her own? He doesn't know and doesn't have the time to figure that one out. So the smart play is to tell the senior officers as little as possible until he needs to. That's one of the luxuries of being the CO; he gets to decide when it's time to tell his subordinates what's really going on. Of course the flip side is if he doesn't let them know soon enough (or at all) and it all goes pear shaped, it's his ass.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
Eccleston gotten a pass from the fans, as he was honest with them from the get go. Given the way the NuWho was turning into a dumpster fire and then spiraling ever downwards with each new season and Doctor. He was/is considered the smartest actor for bailing out after his one season and staying away from the franchise since then.
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I think this single scene at the timestamp might be the peak:


I never saw Torchwood, but Jack Harkness was always one of my favorite characters. He was alien in kind of an opposite way than the Doctor was, but came to the same conclusion about getting his will to live from observing humanity's pioneer spirit.

Everything from the weird sexuality (because future-humanity had to interbreed with aliens to survive, and aliens aren't always sexually dimorphic) to the fake American accent made him seem off in hard to place way, so it was cool that they leaned into that and made him a time abomination that canonically grosses the Doctor out.
 
Ultraman Orb Dark said:
Don't forget how the next time the Borg attacked, Starfleet ordered the shiny new Enterprise-E to patrol the Neutral Zone instead of helping to defend Earth.
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Their fears that Picard could be dangerous for their plans was reasonable. But they forgot that the plot armor is for the enterprise, not the whole fleet.
 
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Sisko gassed a planet and nearly got his ass beat by Eddington. Jellico likely would have been smarter about that, and perhaps would have ratted Eddington out far sooner.
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DS9 Jellico would have forced Dax to do some science for a change, instead of sitting around gossiping in Ops and screwing every passing freighter captain.

Go figure out how to communicate and defend from the wormhole aliens "old man"!
 
California Newt said:
I never saw Torchwood
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Torchwood was the first red flag that Davies (and Chibnall lol) had lost the plot. This was supposed to be the gritty, mature Doctor Who spinoff while the Sarah Jane Adventures was for kids. And somehow, the show for twelve-year-olds had more coherent writing.

Everyone in Torchwood acts like a horny grad student doing improv after a breakup. It’s just wall-to-wall whining with zero taste. I wish I could describe it more elegantly, but that’s really the thesis.
 
ditto said:
DS9 Jellico would have forced Dax to do some science for a change, instead of sitting around gossiping in Ops and screwing every passing freighter captain.

Go figure out how to communicate and defend from the wormhole aliens "old man"!
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Yeah, Dax would get told in no uncertain terms to "get it done" or get shipped. Bashir is in the same spot, frankly, and the only people Jellico wouldn't fire after a certain deadline has been failed by the whole lot are O'Brien and Odo. He can't fire Kira for partaking in Dax's gossip mill thanks to shenanigans related to jurisdiction, but he can make her job so fucking unpleasent she resigns inside a month. By season 2 DS9 is a military barracks the likes of which don't exist elsewhere in the Federation.
 
Curzon Dax-sama said:
Yeah, Dax would get told in no uncertain terms to "get it done" or get shipped. Bashir is in the same spot, frankly, and the only people Jellico wouldn't fire after a certain deadline has been failed by the whole lot are O'Brien and Odo. He can't fire Kira for partaking in Dax's gossip mill thanks to shenanigans related to jurisdiction, but he can make her job so fucking unpleasent she resigns inside a month. By season 2 DS9 is a military barracks the likes of which don't exist elsewhere in the Federation.
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I dunno about O'Brien. Dude was already overworked and under-resourced the entire time in peace time. Jellico reassigning his staff to security would cause a meltdown.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
Jellico reassigning his staff to security would cause a meltdown.
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Jellico would have them all on a 4-shift rotation, no more day and night shifts. O'Brien's workday would be cut in half and time, plus more time away from the shrew Kaiko.
Curzon Dax-sama said:
He can't fire Kira for partaking in Dax's gossip mill thanks to shenanigans related to jurisdiction, but he can make her job so fucking unpleasent she resigns inside a month.
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Just ask the Council of Ministers to appoint Kira as special envoy to Boreil's bedchamber!
 
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