Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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teriyakiburns said:
His "prejudice" was probably a vague mistrust that he ginned up to justify being a whiny little shit.
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Possibly, but he did have a legit point about how some people may not be a good fit for jobs. Like he brings up a Klingon being a counselor. (Although I would pay to watch that.)
He was also still very professional about it, requesting to go elsewhere and then even when told no, still does his job.

A whole show where this guy and Data had to learn to work together could have been some great entertainment. (If only Chakotay and Janeway had been like that...)

But what makes it all the cherry on top, is that earlier we saw Picard ALSO thinking Data shouldn't be in command. The whole episode has this really great subtle commentary on racism bot hatred.

Also another mark of difference between writing then and now.
"Although my actions had a good outcome, the ends cannot justify the means."

Hard not to notice that doesn't seem to be the case today...
 
Data was as ready to take command as many other high ranked officers doing it for the first time, but I think people weren't ready to serve with an android in command and Picard knows well that a crew that doesn't follow their captain and has reservations about them, is a crew that's doomed and will fail. As a captain, he has to consider not just Data's "feelings", but the sake of the rest of the crew.

Also, the guy's reservations were justified. It wasn't just about Data's capacity, but the human factor. It's similar to the same reservations many of us have about current AI. Just like how some AI will let people die to achieve the programmed goal, the guy here felt and feared the same. We the audience know Data won't do that, but the guy did not.

The beauty of old ST is that even the antagonists have good reasons to act the way they do. They aren't acting out of malice or ignorance, but rather because they don't have all the perspective the other has. The main TNG crew knows well that Data has some sort of "emotions" that gives him humanity. This guy didn't know and, because I have the same views about AI, I can relate to him.

teriyakiburns said:
"How hollow is the sound of victory without someone to share it with? Honour gives little comfort to a man alone in his home. And in his heart."
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One of the most romantic lines ever spoken on TV. In every sense of the meaning of romantic.

Imagine a Klingon telling you that: "my victory is hollow if I can't share it with you. My honour won't confort me alone in my home and my heart if you're not there"

Nutrek could never.... Never!
 
Major cognitive dissonance with Worf on TNG. He was supposed to be the brutish warrior, but he was always fucking right. Every time they ignored Whorf for being the stand in conservatard, he was proven right even on their gay space communism show.


All of this harkening back to "the good old days" forgets that writing sucked and was infected even back then. It just sucked less.
 
Flexo said:
A whole show where this guy and Data had to learn to work together could have been some great entertainment. (If only Chakotay and Janeway had been like that...)
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This has never occurred to me, and now I'm sad.

Tasty Tatty said:
Data was as ready to take command as many other high ranked officers doing it for the first time, but I think people weren't ready to serve with an android in command and Picard knows well that a crew that doesn't follow their captain and has reservations about them, is a crew that's doomed and will fail. As a captain, he has to consider not just Data's "feelings", but the sake of the rest of the crew.

Also, the guy's reservations were justified. It wasn't just about Data's capacity, but the human factor. It's similar to the same reservations many of us have about current AI. Just like how some AI will let people die to achieve the programmed goal, the guy here felt and feared the same. We the audience know Data won't do that, but the guy did not.

The beauty of old ST is that even the antagonists have good reasons to act the way they do. They aren't acting out of malice or ignorance, but rather because they don't have all the perspective the other has. The main TNG crew knows well that Data has some sort of "emotions" that gives him humanity. This guy didn't know and, because I have the same views about AI, I can relate to him.
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The fact that you've put more thought and contemplation into into this brief post than everyone involved in nuTrek also makes me sad.

Tasty Tatty said:
One of the most romantic lines ever spoken on TV. In every sense of the meaning of romantic.

Imagine a Klingon telling you that: "my victory is hollow if I can't share it with you. My honour won't confort me alone in my home and my heart if you're not there"

Nutrek could never.... Never!
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Sure they could. It would just be between two dudes.
 
Tasty Tatty said:
Data was as ready to take command as many other high ranked officers doing it for the first time, but I think people weren't ready to serve with an android in command and Picard knows well that a crew that doesn't follow their captain and has reservations about them, is a crew that's doomed and will fail. As a captain, he has to consider not just Data's "feelings", but the sake of the rest of the crew.

Also, the guy's reservations were justified. It wasn't just about Data's capacity, but the human factor. It's similar to the same reservations many of us have about current AI. Just like how some AI will let people die to achieve the programmed goal, the guy here felt and feared the same. We the audience know Data won't do that, but the guy did not.
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But that's a commander's job. It sucks, but commanding officers make those kinds of decisions all the time in real life. Men get sent in harm's way to carry out a mission and don't always come back. The officers on whichever ship Data is in charge of should recognize that. Any by that point in their careers they are supposed to be as open minded about androids being just another non-Human form of life as the crew on the Enterprise. I think the writers had to use non-Enterprise personnel to be the "bad guy" because they ended up making the Enterprise crew so good and so upright that there was no wiggle room for them to have a character go to Picard and say "sir, Data doesn't care if we live or die because he's just a machine and I want a transfer". Granted, even Kirk told officers to leave their bigotry in their quarters when it got in the way of doing their jobs, but the crew of that Enterprise weren't perfect like the way of Picard's Enterprise seemed to be.
 
AnOminous said:
They don't even really understand the concept of conflict itself and how it is dramatic. That scene, with two people of different species and social mores, speaking politely and formally to each other, were definitely in conflict. It was the conflict that brought them together in the room.

It was also multilayered conflict. Data was acting against his general preferences in actually having to criticize and order someone he considers a friend. He's never been in the situation before where an officer subordinate to him expressed disrespect. Worf is in a situation where someone who has never been in authority over him annoys him and is now telling him he's wrong. That's the sort of thing a Klingon ordinarily would take as a deadly insult. It is a conflict with his own nature to admit that someone dressing him down (even in a very polite manner) is right and he was wrong.

So you have multiple levels of conflict in a fairly minimal scene with two people just talking to each other calmly and politely, but both of them display the traits that make them heroes.

nu-Trek writers seem to think that "conflict" solely consists of snarky remarks and girlboss bullshit and saying something woke. Like the whole Picard series.

Also re Jews in Star Trek, Armin Shimerman played Quark so TOTALLY JEW it was amazing. Quark is definitely a Jew, if not from halachic descent laws, just from the fact he is the ultimate Space Jew.
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One of the things I think the writers of these shows forget or don't understand is these characters all had careers before they show up on screen. Data has been in Starfleet 20 years or so by the time TNG starts. He had to have been in situations where he's been in charge of a detail or landing party or ship's division or a shop or something and dealt with insubordinate subordinates or incompetence or whatever the personnel challenge of the week is. "Oh, asshole LT doesn't like me because I'm an android? Big deal, I've had that since my Academy days. Subordinate snipes at me in public? I know how to handle that because I handled that 15 years ago. I have to send men into a situation where they are going to die as a distraction against the enemy commander? Been there, done that." Instead, they tend to treat Data as a naive character when it comes to these situations.
 
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spaztocate9000 said:
Remember when Dr Crusher was getting boned by some hot alien, who died and it turned out he had a symbiote. Only when the symbiote was put into an extra dyky looking bitch Crusher was like, nah I'm out. Gross, I ain't no carpet muncher!
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They could’ve just put slug-boy into another dude. Just some guy. Crusher goes, “This is too ghoulish, I’m out.”

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Instead they’re like, “What if we did Gender Worm Discourse?”

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Remember that Law & Order lady who gets fired and her last line is, “Are you firing me because I’m a lesbian?” And then they just roll credits like, “Welp, that’s enough representation for a decade.”
Ultraman Orb Dark said:
Even then, Discovery's first season made the Klingons cartoonishly evil cannibals.
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Whre the hell did that come from? It felt like they were just checking boxes. “How do we make them evil?” “Uh… make ’em bald. Xerxes-ass motherfuckers. And cannibals."

Stargate SG-1 did the same thing with the Goa’uld. “These guys are space tyrants… but ALSO they eat the baby versions of themselves."

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Captain Syrup said:
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Remember that Law & Order lady who gets fired and her last line is, “Are you firing me because I’m a lesbian?” And then they just roll credits like, “Welp, that’s enough representation for a decade.”
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And that was completely out of left-field too. McCoy never complained about her work and it was never once mentioned that she liked eating at the Y. Just "you're fired" and "but I'm a dyke!"

I'm guessing that way the writers could bring her back later in a lawsuit episode or something and then never did.
 
Tasty Tatty said:
I don't think him being gay is even the issue. If you tell me that Gowron sodomized Duras' bastard son just to prove a point, I'd believe it and most Klingons wouldn't mind. The guy is effeminate, that's the problem. TNG Klingons managed to find a balance between Shakespearian romantic and fearless warrior. By DS9, they're fully fleshed up, like the one telling Worf that glory is empty if it can't be shared with someone you love.

This Klingon dude looks like he would be the one sodomized by Duras' bastard son.
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To the... I wanna say Greeks, it was only "gay" if you're the one getting fucked.
I don't personally agree, but I'd believe you if you told me that the Klingons felt that way.
Flexo said:
Possibly, but he did have a legit point about how some people may not be a good fit for jobs. Like he brings up a Klingon being a counselor. (Although I would pay to watch that.)
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You'd think a Betazoid (even a half Betazoid) would make a great councilor, and yet Deanna was objectively terrible at her job.
(Not a fair clip, but her regular advice wasn't usually much better.)
 
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"I ain't taking no orders from some fucking CLANKER. Shove this up your Jeffery's tube!" Gives him the ole double deuce while walking backward out of the bridge. TNG theme plays.
 
UnKillFill said:
To the... I wanna say Greeks, it was only "gay" if you're the one getting fucked.
I don't personally agree, but I'd believe you if you told me that the Klingons felt that way.

You'd think a Betazoid (even a half Betazoid) would make a great councilor, and yet Deanna was objectively terrible at her job.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dqwYUumrXm0(Not a fair clip, but her regular advice wasn't usually much better.)
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Her advice was correct though. You suck at your job, or at least your direct superior thinks so, so shape up or ship out. Get better or get out of the way. And while we're at it, now's a good time to realize the world is full of assholes and you're just going to need to learn to deal with them.
 
spaztocate9000 said:
All of this harkening back to "the good old days" forgets that writing sucked and was infected even back then. It just sucked less.
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It didn't ALWAYS suck. Even the best episodic shows like Breaking Bad had some outright stinkers. TNG hit it out of the park more often than anything but TOS, and even that's arguable.
UnKillFill said:
(Not a fair clip, but her regular advice wasn't usually much better.)
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And somehow they made her empathic abilities completely useless. Klingon ship captain is screaming over the coms while shooting photon torpedoes. "I sense anger." Yeah no shit.

She was top notch in the having nice tits department though.
William Murderface said:
I think the writers had to use non-Enterprise personnel to be the "bad guy" because they ended up making the Enterprise crew so good and so upright that there was no wiggle room for them to have a character go to Picard and say "sir, Data doesn't care if we live or die because he's just a machine and I want a transfer".
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Not even just that, but everyone loved Data specifically. They had had years with him and knew he was completely trustworthy.
 
William Murderface said:
Her advice was correct though. You suck at your job, or at least your direct superior thinks so, so shape up or ship out. Get better or get out of the way. And while we're at it, now's a good time to realize the world is full of assholes and you're just going to need to learn to deal with them.
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Yeah she's honestly better in that clip than she is most of the time, if overly blunt, and it's in context of showing that she's under the influence of some dude feeding on her mind and turning her into a bitch or something.

Even in Picard Season 3 (which I recently rewatched with my friend) she's looking up fucking vacation packages on her padd while supposedly counciling Data, and snickering with Will about how "batshit" he is after he leaves.

Yes Deanna, he is batshit. Shame he doesn't have somebody competent to help him put together all the conflicting shit in his positronic brain... Enjoy Risa.
 
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Troi's problem was that she was a psychologist. Her mom just read your mind and told you "ah, you're horny... then you should have sex!". Meanwhile, Deanna felt emotions and used 80s style of therapy babble to fix your issues... which we know now that it doesn't really work.

She was basically WebMD. Instead of figuring things out using her instincts and basic human empathy, she went full "you have a headache? Well, you're dying of brain cancer!"
 
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