Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Fatsuit Shinji said:
Galaxy class even it in their peace time "luxury cruiser" guise was still one of the most heavily armed and capable ship classes in the (Beta and Alpha) Quadrant. It wouldn't be until the Enterprise-D's encounter with the Borg. Then later the Odyssey's destruction by the Dominion was the Galaxy's place as top dog was shaken. As seen in DS9, (War) Galaxies are very capable of taking the fight to the enemy. If there is one weakness, it is the Galaxy using the older modulation system of using swipable internal modules. Instead of the newer external module system that is used with the Nebula and newer ship classes.
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Didn't they make a specifically combat focused Galaxy and just slap an extra nacelle on it
 
gaysexenjoyer said:
Didn't they make a specifically combat focused Galaxy and just slap an extra nacelle on it
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That one the was in a possible future in TNG's last episode All Good Things. Unlike the "All Good Things" Klingon voDleH cruisers being canonize on screen in DS9 as the Negh'Var class cruisers. The Galaxy-X Enterprise-D had not reappear on screen in the prime timeline.
 
Brooks'... 'Unique' acting choices have always been one of my favorite things about The Sisko.

Preferred Penne said:
I was thinking about "Yesterday's Enterprise" recently. I know that despite the time alteration, they had to keep a lot of things on the Enterprise similar for the sake of familiarity to the audience. But there's no way that the Galaxy-class ship as we know it would exist in a timeline where the Federation has been at war for over 20 years. They would have ditched the sleek luxury cruiser in favor of a massive gunship that would let the Klingons know that they weren't fucking around. Also, there definitely wouldn't be a bar and lounge on the ship, but you need to have Guinan on board to notice the time distortion. Maybe she's a military advisor or something.
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Somebody, I think it was RLM, asked hypothetically, do you think Yesterday's Enterprise Picard still went on a time-traveling Mark Twain adventure to meet Guinan? (The Entire reason she's on Enterprise to begin with.) And that makes me chuckle for some reason...
 
UnKillFill said:
Brooks'... 'Unique' acting choices have always been one of my favorite things about The Sisko.


Somebody, I think it was RLM, asked hypothetically, do you think Yesterday's Enterprise Picard still went on a time-traveling Mark Twain adventure to meet Guinan? (The Entire reason she's on Enterprise to begin with.) And that makes me chuckle for some reason...
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Remember that Guinan feels alternate timelines, so she probably just vibes with that Picard and joined up.
 
Preferred Penne said:
I was thinking about "Yesterday's Enterprise" recently. I know that despite the time alteration, they had to keep a lot of things on the Enterprise similar for the sake of familiarity to the audience. But there's no way that the Galaxy-class ship as we know it would exist in a timeline where the Federation has been at war for over 20 years. They would have ditched the sleek luxury cruiser in favor of a massive gunship that would let the Klingons know that they weren't fucking around. Also, there definitely wouldn't be a bar and lounge on the ship, but you need to have Guinan on board to notice the time distortion. Maybe she's a military advisor or something.
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"Yesterday's Enterprise" (TNG Season 3) was set in 2366. According to the TNG Tech Manual, the Galaxy class design program started in 2343, with actual construction of the Enterprise (second in production) starting in 2353. It's easy enough to imagine that much of the design work was already well underway when the alt-timeline Klingon war started, and the overall spaceframe design was carried forward.

Even in the main timeline, much of the internal volume of the Galaxy class ships were essentially unfinished (again per the TNG Tech Manual) to support future expansion. In DS9, showrunners have speculated that the War Galaxy variants mass produced to take on the Dominion were even more spartan, with skeleton crews and only tactical and power systems fully built out.

In such a war it's very likely that many of the internal systems would have been focused on weapons and shields from the get-go. The massive Galaxies would also serve as excellent assault and troop transport ships with minor modifications (am I remembering correctly that there's even some mention of onboard troops in the episode?). The ship would also need (a bigger) ten-forward, more-so than they did in the prime timeline.

Fatsuit Shinji said:
Galaxy class even it in their peace time "luxury cruiser" guise was still one of the most heavily armed and capable ship classes in the (Beta and Alpha) Quadrant. It wouldn't be until the Enterprise-D's encounter with the Borg. Then later the Odyssey's destruction by the Dominion was the Galaxy's place as top dog was shaken. As seen in DS9, (War) Galaxies are very capable of taking the fight to the enemy. If there is one weakness, it is the Galaxy using the older modulation system of using swipable internal modules. Instead of the newer external module system i.e. mission pods that is used with the Nebula and newer ship classes.
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This is correct, although the Galaxy class had a bad track record in peacetime, indicating some significant problems with the design. The Yamato was lost due to lack of anti-virus software. The Enterprise through poor security and shield issues. The Odyssey lost due to sheer fucking incompetence by her Captain. We also know the Enterprise had at least a dozen near warp-core breaches over it's short service life, showing serious flaws.

However, they seemed to be very capable in combat. We never saw one lost in any of DS9's massive fleet combat scenes, even when Excelsiors, D'deridex warbirds, and Vor'cha assault cruisers were exploding left and right. Starfleet was fielding the tactically oriented anti-Borg ships at that point, but the Galaxy wings remained the anvil that allied fleets used when hammering Dominion and Cardassian fleets. It's heavily implied that they remained among the most survivable combat ships around, even if they were no longer offensively the most powerful.
 
Phillip Green said:
This is correct, although the Galaxy class had a bad track record in peacetime, indicating some significant problems with the design. The Yamato was lost due to lack of anti-virus software.
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It wasn't even a virus as the Iconian software was just incompatible with Federation software. Although it may as well be a virus in how it was overwriting the ship's systems. Incompetence with the Yamato crew using the main computer to play with unknown tech.

Phillip Green said:
The Enterprise through poor security and shield issues. The Odyssey lost due to sheer fucking incompetence by her Captain.
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Poor security is crew incompetence and not a fault of the ship design. Odyssey was lost more to complicity by Starfleet in general. Sisko fucking off in unknown territory, with unknown species, getting captured and use of bait. Starfleet thinking one heavy cruiser and a pair of glorified speedboats as escort is sufficient, in an extreme misuse of capitol resources, rescue mission in said unknown territory.
Phillip Green said:
also know the Enterprise had at least a dozen near warp-core breaches over it's short service life, showing serious flaws.
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Greatest flaw of the Galaxy class was its crippling glass jaw of any serious glancing hit and love tap is more than capable of initiating a warp-core breach. Which is eventually fixed some time prior to the Dominion War.
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Phillip Green said:
However, they seemed to be very capable in combat. We never saw one lost in any of DS9's massive fleet combat scenes, even when Excelsiors, D'deridex warbirds, and Vor'cha assault cruisers were exploding left and right.
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While it wasn't shown on screen, all of the Galaxies in the allied fleet at the
Second Battle of Chin'toka were confirmed destroyed with only one bird of prey surviving it.

Phillip Green said:
Starfleet was fielding the tactically oriented anti-Borg ships at that point, but the Galaxy wings remained the anvil that allied fleets used when hammering Dominion and Cardassian fleets. It's heavily implied that they remained among the most survivable combat ships around, even if they were no longer offensively the most powerful.
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According to the people making First Contact movie, the admiral's ship fighting the borg cube was a Galaxy. It and the Defiant were in a running fire fight with the cube since it breached the Federation's border all the way to Sector 001. Enterprise-E going in to saved the Defiant instead of saving the admiral's ship and more people. Even with a skeleton crew, that's still a few hundred people as opposed to a few dozen on the Defiant.
 
Fatsuit Shinji said:
Odyssey was lost more to complicity by Starfleet in general.
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Captain Keogh let the Dominion fleet get within easy ramming distance. A few runabouts weren't going to stop what happened afterwards. He was reckless with a critical capital vessel that would be needed in the coming war. He got his ship rammed by grey drug addict incel retards, causing (through another warp core breach) the loss of his entire crew. Unforgivable incompetence.

Fatsuit Shinji said:
Greatest flaw of the Galaxy class was its crippling glass jaw of any serious glancing hit and love tap is more than capable of initiating a warp-core breach. Which is eventually fixed some time prior to the Dominion War.
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Agreed. This was the fundamental problem (although certainly not a unique one) to the Galaxy.

Fatsuit Shinji said:
While it wasn't shown on screen, all of the Galaxies in the allied fleet at the
Second Battle of Chin'toka were confirmed destroyed with only one bird of prey surviving it.
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This is a valid point, although it's unclear how many, if any, Galaxy hulls were in the allied fleet. It's also important to remember that, according to the TNG Technical Manual (released TNG Season 4 or ~2367), there were only 6 active Galaxy class ships in service, with another 6 hulls ready to be built (but not being built). Obviously production would have kicked up after Wolf 359 and the war starting, but considering that it took 13 years to build the Enterprise, it's unclear how many made it into the war. Several dozen overall seems likely, but likely still a miniscule fraction of overall fleet numbers. These were rare ships.

More importantly, the Breen shield disruptor that lead to the massacre at 2nd Chintoka wasn't a weakness of the Galaxy, but of all Alpha Quadrant species' shield technology.

Fatsuit Shinji said:
Even with a skeleton crew, that's still a few hundred people as opposed to a few dozen on the Defiant.
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I never said Picard wasn't a terrible Captain. Can you imagine how many threats to the Galaxy would have been easily thwarted if he'd just listened to Worf and fired some goddamn photon torpedoes?
 
Rabo 2: Electric Boogaloo said:
THEY'RE RRRRRRRRREAAAAAAALLLLL
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Fatsuit Shinji said:
Galaxy class even it in their peace time "luxury cruiser" guise was still one of the most heavily armed and capable ship classes
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It looks like an ’80s dentist office. It has carpet. Real pussy shit!:punished:

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I kid, but it is funny though. They’re like, “We’re in peacetime, exploring ideas,” and then every episode they’re like, “blow up the ship.” The Enterprise explodes into a trillion pieces, children dying, dolphins flying out. And then the next scene they’re like, “Anyway, let’s rewind time".

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That happens to Voyager too. The Intrepid class is just getting totaled every week and Janeway’s like, “Computer, undo my mistake.” Berman treats blowing up the ship like a punctuation mark. It’s like, explosion.

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New paragraph, nothing happened.

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Fatsuit Shinji said:
Greatest flaw of the Galaxy class was its crippling glass jaw of any serious glancing hit and love tap is more than capable of initiating a warp-core breach. Which is eventually fixed some time prior to the Dominion War.
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It's probably a case of hooking up lots of new next-gen tech everywhere while the military variants added armor plating and turned all those big apartment-sized quarters into bunk beds for 6 people. All those EPS hooked up the ODN conduits into those FTL supercomputers is bound to overload those consoles and whatnot. Especially in combat when they overclock those controls to kill latency.
Phillip Green said:
This is a valid point, although it's unclear how many, if any, Galaxy hulls were in the allied fleet. It's also important to remember that, according to the TNG Technical Manual (released TNG Season 4 or ~2367), there were only 6 active Galaxy class ships in service, with another 6 hulls ready to be built (but not being built). Obviously production would have kicked up after Wolf 359 and the war starting, but considering that it took 13 years to build the Enterprise, it's unclear how many made it into the war. Several dozen overall seems likely, but likely still a miniscule fraction of overall fleet numbers. These were rare ships.
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I'm of the opinion that Federation welders were told to weld those Galaxy class parts ASAP and built the Nebula-class because parts like the neck wouldn't be available until next Tuesday. The Sutherland had radiation problems from powering the phasers because of the slapdash way the ship was built. Same with the Centaurs, Excelsior stardrive sections weren't built, so they just welded the nacelles to the saucer and called it a day.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
I'm of the opinion that Federation welders were told to weld those Galaxy class parts ASAP and built the Nebula-class because parts like the neck wouldn't be available until next Tuesday.
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Nebula class is of the same family with the Galaxy, New Orleans, Cheyenne, and others but their saucers, hulls, nacelles and etc. are not the same. Secondly, Nebulas class is almost as old as the Galaxy class and not slap dashed together war design like the Yeager class.
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
It's probably a case of hooking up lots of new next-gen tech everywhere while the military variants added armor plating and turned all those big apartment-sized quarters into bunk beds for 6 people. All those EPS hooked up the ODN conduits into those FTL supercomputers is bound to overload those consoles and whatnot. Especially in combat when they overclock those controls to kill latency.
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War Galaxies biggest difference is the saucer section being iirc 70% empty as completed. As that space is where the internal modules are fitted. Enterprise-D saucer in "Encounter at Farpoint" was 30% empty.
Phillip Green said:
but considering that it took 13 years to build the Enterprise, it's unclear how many made it into the war. Several dozen overall seems likely, but likely still a miniscule fraction of overall fleet numbers. These were rare ships.
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My best guess is less than a hundred built by the time Voyager returned to Sector 001. With about thirty or so, named examples according to TV series, books, and games. Ex Astris Scientia had counted numerous Galaxies in fleet shots in the Dominion War in DS9, and when Voyager got back to Earth in VOY. Currently can't find that page at the moment.

Honestly while the Nebula is bargain brand copy of the Galaxy, by most metrics it is the better ship for mass production and general fleet use. Same situation also applies to the Sovereign and the Akira, Steamrunner, and Sabre classes where having larger numbers of any of the smaller Akiras, Steamrunners, and Sabres is preferable than having more handful of Sovereigns.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
I'm of the opinion that Federation welders were told to weld those Galaxy class parts ASAP and built the Nebula-class because parts like the neck wouldn't be available until next Tuesday. The Sutherland had radiation problems from powering the phasers because of the slapdash way the ship was built. Same with the Centaurs, Excelsior stardrive sections weren't built, so they just welded the nacelles to the saucer and called it a day.
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Can you imagine how completely done with it the welders were when they were given the Elkins and Yeager?

Fatsuit Shinji said:
My best guess is less than a hundred built by the time Voyager returned to Sector 001. With about thirty or so, named examples according to TV series, books, and games. Ex Astris Scientia had counted numerous Galaxies in fleet shots in the Dominion War in DS9, and when Voyager got back to Earth in VOY. Currently can't find that page at the moment.

Honestly while the Nebula is bargain brand copy of the Galaxy, by most metrics it is the better ship for mass production and general fleet use. Same situation also applies to the Sovereign and the Akira, Steamrunner, and Sabre classes where having larger numbers of any of the smaller Akiras, Steamrunners, and Sabres is preferable than having more handful of Sovereigns.
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This seems high to me. I don't want to quibble too much (and I can't find the relevant EAS page, although I think I remember the one you're talking about), but "books, and games" is carrying a lot of weight there. While I'm far from a stickler for "On-screen Canon" the game and licensed fiction stuff is massively inconsistent. Post-DS9 you're dealing with three or four major book lines that are inconsistent with each other, sometimes in universe shaking things like a Borg invasion of the Federation. STO tried to consolidate some of this, but then got nuked by Nutrek revisionism. Head-canon is all we've got to guide us in these troubled times...

On the Nebula front, most sources hint that the Galaxies are solidly superior to the Nebulas, as the Constitutions were somehow superior to the larger (volumetrically at least) Miranda. My personal head-canon is that in both cases the more powerful design is more difficult to build and upgrade, but has a superior power plant and shields. Given time the inferior designs receive upgrades that narrow the gap in these areas and improve their usefulness, leading to the Miranda's century+ use, while the Constitutions barely made it into the 23rd century. Similarly, I would assume we'd see Nebulas in action long after the Galaxy is in mothballs.
 
Phillip Green said:
On the Nebula front, most sources hint that the Galaxies are solidly superior to the Nebulas, as the Constitutions were somehow superior to the larger (volumetrically at least) Miranda. My personal head-canon is that in both cases the more powerful design is more difficult to build and upgrade, but has a superior power plant and shields. Given time the inferior designs receive upgrades that narrow the gap in these areas and improve their usefulness, leading to the Miranda's century+ use, while the Constitutions barely made it into the 23rd century. Similarly, I would assume we'd see Nebulas in action long after the Galaxy is in mothballs.
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It could also come into the rolls of each ship. I imagine a Nebula or Miranda class ship was the Federation workhorse. Doing the daily tasks of Starfleet. Scanning rocks, rendering assistance to merchant freighters. Patrols within Federation space, customs enforcement. Doing the less glamourous tasks that need to be done. As such they could have been designed around being able to gut the superstructure, slam new components in and then keep going with a minimum of fuss. With the only time they need to be retired is when either the superstructure fails, or when design philosophy has changed so much it's easier to develop a new class.

With the Constitution and Galaxy class being the flagship class and iconic ship of each era. I would assume that they would get used harder and in more extreme ways being on the edge of known space or the front of a conflict. While also being a testbed for whatever tech and improvements Starfleet had developed. Everyone knows you don't buy the first model year of a car. You also probably shouldn't use the first model year of a warpcore. Hence why the Enterprise-Ds kept breaching every time you looked at it funny. By the end of it's initial service life, each class was probably a patchwork morass of hastily done repairs and engineering that borders on magic. It could be that after 20 or 30 years of service life Starfleet doesn't see the worth in upgrading them and is more invested in their shiny new toy.

For real world, look at how long nations fly aircraft. The C-130 Hercules has been around since 1954 with upgrades to its frame and and engines. But it is still a prop driven aircraft that moves shit from place to place and can be fixed by calling it a cocksucker and the liberal application of duct tape.
 
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