Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Phillip Green]

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Ah, a man of culture, just like me!

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But I do love the old lady more.

I agree both that the refit Connie is the GOAT, and that the Ambassador is a massively underrated design.

A lot of people have a hard-on for Probert's original concept for the Ambassador, but I honestly prefer Sternbach's last minute rushed design for the way it really does look like an evolution combining features of TOS and TMP era designs and what would become the Galaxy era ships.

Probert's design is nice enough, but looks like it should be a contemporary of the Galaxy (or even a later design), not built 30 years before TNG starts. I'm kind of glad it was impossible to build within the show's budget.


[source]

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

What are your lads favorite ships of the franchise?

The Constitution-class, Nebula-class, Sovereign-class, Bird-of-Prey, Borg Cube.

 

[Captain Syrup]

The Constitution-class, Nebula-class, Sovereign-class, Bird-of-Prey, Borg Cube.

The Klingon Bird-of-Prey is undefeated on vibes.




The Romulan Warbird, aesthetically, is lacking. You’ve seen this set redressed 900 times.



I think the reason the Klingons on TNG feel consistent is because they basically reused the TOS movie props. The Romulan ships are desaturated because it was '93 and everything was grey back then.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Oh, and there is of course the 23rd century Romulan BoP. In itself not the most impressive design ever made, but that the Romulans painted their hulls during that time frame is just the ultimate flex.

 

[Captain Syrup]

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Oh, and there is of course the 23rd century Romulan BoP. In itself not the most impressive design ever made, but that the Romulans painted their hulls during that time frame is just the ultimate flex.

TOS Romulans were kitsch. But at least they were something.

 

[Michael Wade]

Podcast wise I've been greatly enjoying Brent and frakes talking about whatever the hell they want with friends.

It's nice how it's not 100 percent star trek even though it inevitably shows up. I love the story of how Nathan protected the TNG cast from a crazy hobo




Firefly was pretty good by the way.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Firefly was pretty good by the way.

I like Morena Baccarin. Shepherd Book has his moments



But if I’m being honest, I preferred Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel. That kind of sums it up.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

The Klingon Bird-of-Prey is undefeated on vibes.

It's the wings that sell the design for me. Really makes the bird motif work.

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Oh, and there is of course the 23rd century Romulan BoP. In itself not the most impressive design ever made, but that the Romulans painted their hulls during that time frame is just the ultimate flex.

Imagine graduating from Romulan art school and being told your canvas is going to be a spaceship.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

TOS Romulans were kitsch. But at least they were something.

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Imagine graduating from Romulan art school and being told your canvas is going to be a spaceship.

Honestly, the 24th century iteration is cool in ways most other ship designs aren't. It's just another aesthetic flex and actually, I'm inclined to think it is also a sign of clear technological superiority in certain aspects. The Romulans built a fleet of massive space-birds, because they can. It's a shame we never got to see what kind of engineering culture they had that led to that design choice.

 

[Captain Syrup]

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Honestly, the 24th century iteration is cool in ways most other ship designs aren't. It's just another aesthetic flex and actually, I'm inclined to think it is also a sign of clear technological superiority in certain aspects. The Romulans built a fleet of massive space-birds, because they can. It's a shame we never got to see what kind of engineering culture they had that led to that design choice.

I love that Klingons accidentally won the Dominion War because their ships are too stupid to hack.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

I love that Klingons accidentally won the Dominion War because their ships are too stupid to hack.

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The TNG-era Klingons are technically, structurally and functionally WH40k Orcs. Most of them don't know how their gear works, but it works and that's enough to kick your shit in. In DS9, they still have the D-7, a design that's even older than the Excelsior, and they use it to break into the Space Mall, successfully. It reminds me how drunken angry vatniks used T-34s and IS-3s in the early stages of the war in the Donbass-region of Ukraine. It's the same level of Orc-ishness.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

But she has the voice of a fat bitchy work coach in a London Jobcentre so it doesn't land, at all.

I did say "did her best," which does not mean good. I mean it's harder to blame her in the same way I blame Holly Hunter for her performance.

I love that Klingons accidentally won the Dominion War because their ships are too stupid to hack.

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It all goes back to what Scotty said, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." And it makes sense. Klingon military technology has to be able to tolerate angry Klingon warriors trying to troubleshoot it. So it stands to reason their computers have more mechanical and less electronic parts so the Breen Energy weapon doesn't work on it.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

The TNG-era Klingons are technically, structurally and functionally WH40k Orcs. Most of them don't know how their gear works, but it works and that's enough to kick your shit in.

I always saw them more as the jocks of the galaxy.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

It all goes back to what Scotty said, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." And it makes sense. Klingon military technology has to be able to tolerate angry Klingon warriors trying to troubleshoot it. So it stands to reason their computers have more mechanical and less electronic parts so the Breen Energy weapon doesn't work on it.

The Breen energy weapon did on them except for that one BoP which had a technical fault in one of their systems. Klingons were lucky their entire fleet was easily and quickly converted to be impervious to the Breen energy weapon secondary effect.

 

[Captain Syrup]

The Galaxy Class is of course the king of comfort. Stage 9 really let's you appreciate its size.

Oversized .. built for amenities... Not made for battle...

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

The TNG-era Klingons are technically, structurally and functionally WH40k Orcs.

Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition Orks to be more precise. As those Orks had functional civilizations.

In DS9, they still have the D-7, a design that's even older than the Excelsior, and they use it to break into the Space Mall, successfully.

The D-7s by the time of breaking into the Space Mall, have been continously upgraded, refitted, modernized, throughout their service life. Still the Klingons used them in supporting roles assisting the newer frontline ships.

 

[Welf Welf]

The Romulan Warbird, aesthetically, is lacking. You’ve seen this set redressed 900 times.

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I think the reason the Klingons on TNG feel consistent is because they basically reused the TOS movie props. The Romulan ships are desaturated because it was '93 and everything was grey back then.

It's too bad TNG didn't continue the dual command thing the Romulans had going in their first appearance. It was very People's Liberation Army, a military officer, and a civilian political officer keeping him in check. I wonder why they didn't continue with that.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

The D-7s by the time of breaking into the Space Mall, have been continously upgraded, refitted, modernized, throughout their service life. Still the Klingons used them in supporting roles assisting the newer frontline ships.

For something that was designed and deployed specifically as a counter to the Constitution-class it's an interesting history. Also, given that the D-7 was in fact inferior to the refit Connies in certain aspects. V'ger's weapon deleted D-7s without any effort, but couldn't do the same with the Enterprise. But are there still Connies in service in the same manner the D-7 is in service? Nope. I think that says something about the long-term viability of the design, which the Constitution-class didn't have in the same manner.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

For something that was designed and deployed specifically as a counter to the Constitution-class it's an interesting history. Also, given that the D-7 was in fact inferior to the refit Connies in certain aspects. V'ger's weapon deleted D-7s without any effort, but couldn't do the same with the Enterprise. But are there still Connies in service in the same manner the D-7 is in service? Nope. I think that says something about the long-term viability of the design, which the Constitution-class didn't have in the same manner.

I think it's an attrition v. latest spec issue. The Federation build their heavy cruisers with the most advanced tech available. The trade-off is they are difficult to make, so they have to function alone. The Klingons, being a military power first, builds a bunch of "good enough" ships so they can take advantage of economy of scale and ideally have them work in squadrons. So while the K'Tingas aren't good enough to fight V'ger or a giant amoeba, they are good enough to fight a lone Connie and later, a lone Galaxy.

 

[Phillip Green]

I think it's an attrition v. latest spec issue. The Federation build their heavy cruisers with the most advanced tech available. The trade-off is they are difficult to make, so they have to function alone. The Klingons, being a military power first, builds a bunch of "good enough" ships so they can take advantage of economy of scale and ideally have them work in squadrons. So while the K'Tingas aren't good enough to fight V'ger or a giant amoeba, they are good enough to fight a lone Connie and later, a lone Galaxy.

Yeah, this makes sense based on what we saw depicted in the Dominion War. The Klingons were primarily an attritional force based around the small B'rell class bird of preys, with the heavier K'vorts, Vor'chas, and Negh'vars used for focused offensive punch. This was essentially the same fleet composition as the Dominion.

We really only see the K't'ingas in the assault on DS9 during Gowron's little hissy-fit, so I'd speculate that they're really only used for siege work against fortified static targets at this point in the timeline.

Prior to DS9, the nature of Klingon fleet doctrine is a matter of contradictory extended canon or fanon sources. Most sources agree that the Klingon fleet was structured similarly to Starfleet in the 23rd century, with a backbone made up of cruisers and destroyers, supported by scout class ships like the B'rell. It's also commonly reasoned the economic impact of the Praxis disaster was one of the main reasons why the Empire switched to a cheaper, more attrition-focused force structure.

By most accounts the original D7 was, by itself, not a match for the TOS Constitution class in a 1-on-1 fight, and the K't'inga upgrade was meant to fix that in the late 2260s (although there's debate if the K't'inga is an upgrade or a completely new design). However, the Constitution refit program in the 2270s once again left the Klinks behind the curve technologically. As you suggest, the 3-ship wolfpack we saw in TMP was likely the standard Klingon patrol formation throughout this era in order to overcome this inferiority.