Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Captain Syrup]

India got nuked and we instantly met aliens and became a galactic superpower

At least Turkey endures.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Do any of you really believe that meeting aliens will somehow rally our species and end all our problems?

Yes.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Personally, I think the Eugenics Wars and Trek's premise for WW3 were all fucking retarded. The Eugenics Wars doesn't make sense if you know anything about biotechnology and that is supposed to lead directly to WW3, which leads to a global nuclear war... that doesn't eradicate all of humanity and lead to MAD?

It'd depends, now would it. It's retarded, because it was never fleshed out really. Personal headcanon is that the superpowers got their hands on alien biotech in the late 1940s and started to create super soldiers, which then backfired in the 1980s-2000s. Because why would people who are 5 times stronger, have twice the general intelligence of you, live longer, recover faster, have better instincts and reflexes and so on listen to you unaugmented normie pleb? They see you and have two thoughts in their minds: some of you are weak and need paternalistic protection and some of you are weak and should be eradicated.

You can see why that'd lead to... issues. The interesting thing here, tho, is the Augments were both the most competent people when they existed, and the most retarded. Maybe I should do a fanfic about Khan winning the war and sparing humanity from becoming a space elf-protectorate for a century.

uclear war... that doesn't eradicate all of humanity and lead to MAD? I'm sure it made sense to Gene in the 1960's, but it makes no fucking sense now.

Gene was a Posadist, at least on some level. From that perspective, a nuke fight to resolve the issues that are destabilizing humanity and endangering its long-term survival absolutely makes sense.

Also, people politicize dish soap. I can't post anything in this thread without Captain Syrup negrating me because I'm pro-Trump. Do any of you really believe that meeting aliens will somehow rally our species and end all our problems? There are people on this website who believe that any "aliens" we meet are literal Biblical demons and part of some religious test.

Well, the only people who need to worry about a peaceful, very public, very real, very non-psyop first contact with aliens are the ones who will lose everything during that encounter. It's the usual suspects, the Epsteins and Finks of this world, obviously. Because in a world post-first contact they won't matter at all, no matter how hard they'll try to enforce their position on humanity.

The existence of a space faring alien civilization with FTL-capabilities is the most dangerous thing to the powers that be I can imagine. It's more dangerous than nuclear war, because it proves several things all at once: our economy is a massive a scam, our science community consists mostly of frauds, our politicians are truly scum, and the racists were right about everything (eugenics included).

The only way humans will ever form a united federation is if they are dragged kicking and screaming.

Which is what Posadism at the core is about: nuclear war prunes the dead weight and opens the road to the future.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

The existence of a space faring alien civilization with FTL-capabilities is the most dangerous thing to the powers that be I can imagine. It's more dangerous than nuclear war, because it proves several things all at once: our economy is a massive a scam, our science community consists mostly of frauds, our politicians are truly scum, and the racists were right about everything (eugenics included).

That doesn't make any sense. How does the existence of spacefaring aliens with FTL prove any of those things?

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

That doesn't make any sense. How does the existence of spacefaring aliens with FTL prove any of those things?

It does by the existence of alternative paths we haven't taken for whatever reason. The questions related to why we haven't done anything of that nature will arise very quickly, and when they do, anger at the establishment will set in half a second later. I have no doubts about that. As I said, the powers that be are in the worst position in such a scenario; depending on the wider circumstances, they'll have a lot to answer for. At least they have to come to terms with their own incompetence as stewards of our civilization.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

The show glosses over the nuclear apocalypse to focus on its hallmark theme: humanity united in cooperation, scientific progress and space exploration.

For the IRL first contact discussion, you're assuming beneficent aliens, and it's straying off topic.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

It does by the existence of alternative paths we haven't taken for whatever reason. The questions related to why we haven't done anything of that nature will arise very quickly, and when they do, anger at the establishment will set in half a second later. I have no doubts about that. As I said, the powers that be are in the worst position in such a scenario; depending on the wider circumstances, they'll have a lot to answer for. At least they have to come to terms with their own incompetence as stewards of our civilization.

What if the aliens are way ahead of us in technology because they've been around longer?

 

[Mussolini’s Merkin]

This is going to be a hot take and earn me many negrates but Babylon 5 is better than DS9. DS9 wastes so much time on boring shit like the Bajorans instead of getting to the point of the show, the Dominion War. Seven seasons was too much for the show and it can be a slog to get through. Babylon 5 with its five seasons doesn't dick around and gets to the fucking point. Even the filler episodes include plot points that help build up to the Great War and the Earth Civil War. The HD remasters of B5 on HBOMax also look better than the DVD rips of DS9.

DS9 show runners when you point out similarities to Babylon 5:
View attachment 8857891

Now don’t get me wrong, I adore B5. Londo is one of the most interesting sci-fi characters ever written and Jurasik is phenomenal. That said there is just no way that B5 is better than DS9.

It is painfully obvious that they were limited with their budget sometimes to the detriment of the show. The actors are trying their best and really sell it but it fells so cheap at times, the amount of reused sets, or tight shots filmed against corridor walls, it gets distracting once you see it.

The entirety of season 5 is filler and leftover episodes and it feels like they’re just spinning their wheels. I like it because it turns into the Londo-G’Kar show but everything else was so dull, the telepath plot line goes nowhere.

There are definitely parts of B5 that surpass DS9, but DS9 is just a far more consistent show overall.

Now with that said, a spin off show with Londo, G’Kar, Quark and Garak would be the best thing ever made.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

I never had a problem with that picture. Maybe the Academy shaved the heads of plebes. Or he lost a bet at some point. Or was in a frat and it was part of the initiation. Something.

Or he lost his hair in a training accident when a phaser zapped it all off.

Watching Voyager episode Nothing Human.

The writers literally create a holographic strawman for the crew to get unreasonably mad at. They just stick a holographic skin on the exobiology database, calm down. Janeway manages to be the voice of rationality and says we need to save our freeman first and then we can quibble about the moral issues afterward.

They whine about using Space Mengele's research as if they were talking to the man himself. For fuck's sake, this was after Seven joined the crew. They brought a man back to life with Borg nanoprobes, but Cardassian research is too scary?

The hilarious thing is that Seth fucking MacFarlane with The Orville managed to do political episodes with more tact and wisdom than anyone in the last 10-15 years has been able to. Probably because he realizes the goal of these shows it to be entertaining and not to indoctrinate your audience. Shit, just put him in charge of Star Trek and see how it goes since he seems to actually understand why people liked Star Trek.

One episode that stands out to me is "Majority Rule". While it's standard satire on social media and cancel culture, what really elevates it for me is when they get a citizen of the planet of the week to talk about what her world is like.

Why was it even necessary to have him die anyways? Just have him complete his destiny and then have him resign from Starfleet fatigued by war and live on a farm in Bajor to heal. Like Frodo going off to the Grey Havens.

Or say he's going to go away... and then he comes back five minutes later because time works differently.

Yeah but clothed females having access to the Ferengi Exchange collapsed the market with trading volume. I think many would love to throw the reformers off the Grand Marketplace but the Ferengi economy is in a huge boom by What You Leave Behind. A coup would collapse of all that growth.

I love how the reason for gender equality isn't based on human beliefs, but rather, Ferengi beliefs. Yes, we know why sexism is bad, but it makes sense for the Ferengi to change their minds about women after realizing women working means the economy can grow.

Just thinking about this episode makes me extremely angry. One of the most offensive in the whole series. Withholding the cure to a dying civilization due to some garbage about natural selection WHEN YOUR ENTIRE JOB AS A DOCTOR IS CIRCUMVENTING NATURAL SELECTION is incredibly retarded and makes me so mad.

And somehow, this is supposed to be what gives Archer the idea to create the Prime Directive.

That's my point. It wasn't Rom's latinum, looks or smarts. Must be true love.

Side note, but you have to imagine how giddy Leeta was to get married. Not only did she find a man she loved, she got the Jesus Christ of her religion to officiate the ceremony.

Brooks only demanded his character assure his return so no one would make absentee black father comments about it.

And he's still nowhere to be seen centuries later.

I ask myself what kind of mindset and subset of the population was wiped so thoroughly that humans could finally move to the stars.

According to some people, the capitalists.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

What if the aliens are way ahead of us in technology because they've been around longer?

That question implies a linear correlation of technological advancements and time, which isn't what we can observe in humanity. Those things aren't correlated to the degree people think it is. The question of what kind of social structure leads to technological innovation in the first place is much more important, and the answer for that is related to average general intelligence. That alien civilization by any chance probably never wasted resources on feeding and babysitting billions of people with an IQ of <95. But we do. Worse: we actively sabotage the subset of the population with an IQ of >120.

The implications of that with regards to Trek should horrify you: humanity got to the stars mainly because of people like Khan, Phillip Green, the Optimum movement, the guys who started WW3 and the various ideological motives all of those guys had. All of them did eugenics on a global scale, creating circumstances in which only the most intelligent, most adaptive and strongest parts of humanity came out on the other side.

You know what would have been cool? Or at least sobering and honest? If an episode in the older Trek-series raised that question and came to unsettling conclusions. They kinda did with the Temporal Cold War shenanigans. The people living in Daniels' time protect a timeline that includes horrible wars and genocidal maniacs, because they know that without them they cease to exist. It's rather implied than outright stated, but it's safe to assume that people from that time who want to go back and kill Hitler or Stalin or Khan are actively hunted down and imprisoned.

What's missing is an episode where the characters actually talk about it. Can you imagine someone like Sisko or Picard giving basically the Himmler-speech in Posen and defending the entirety of the 1900-2063 timeframe, because without it the Federation would never have come into existence? Well, I can. Easily.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

You know what would have been cool? Or at least sobering and honest? If an episode in the older Trek-series raised that question and came to unsettling conclusions. They kinda did with the Temporal Cold War shenanigans. The people living in Daniels' time protect a timeline that includes horrible wars and genocidal maniacs, because they know that without them they cease to exist. It's rather implied than outright stated, but it's safe to assume that people from that time who want to go back and kill Hitler or Stalin or Khan are actively hunted down and imprisoned.

What's missing is an episode where the characters actually talk about it. Can you imagine someone like Sisko or Picard giving basically the Himmler-speech in Posen and defending the entirety of the 1900-2063 timeframe, because without it the Federation would never have come into existence? Well, I can. Easily.

What about "The City on the Edge of Forever?" That episode was kinda about letting someone die in order to ensure the Federation exists. "Past Tense" as well.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

And he's still nowhere to be seen centuries later.

Sisko badmouthing is for niggers.

Can you imagine someone like Sisko or Picard giving basically the Himmler-speech in Posen and defending the entirety of the 1900-2063 timeframe, because without it the Federation would never have come into existence? Well, I can. Easily.

Sisko did do this about the Sanctuary Districts in "Past Tense." He flat out says that without them, people wouldn't have realized what they were doing was fucked up and wrong.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

What about "The City on the Edge of Forever?" That episode was kinda about letting someone die in order to ensure the Federation exists. "Past Tense" as well.

Yeah, that TOS episode was closer to that line of thought than Past Tense. Edith Keeler had to die, so that the US could enter the war and help defeat Germany, which otherwise would have conquered the entire world. Letting her die and WW2 play out historically was the lesser evil. The known death of 80 million people was an acceptable price for Kirk and Spock to pay for their own existence, given that the alternative was 80 million + a number X of people the Nazis would have killed in their world domination tour + Y of people who never would have come into existence + Z of people who would have been killed in any future wars due to the Federation not existing and so on and so.

Sisko did do this about the Sanctuary Districts in "Past Tense." He flat out says that without them, people wouldn't have realized what they were doing was fucked up and wrong.

The premise was interesting, but the conclusion was political sperging. Nobody in the end acknowledged the solid fact that the sanctuary districts were a necessary condition for humanity to get their shit together. Bashir asked the wrong question in the end, the one that only someone with a moral superiority complex would ask, someone who isn't aware that his own existence has been afforded with the suffering and blood of others in a certain sequence of events that shouldn't be altered.

I think temporal psychosis doesn't hit you because you time travel too much. Nope, it affects you because you know you have to protect mass murderers, dictators, the Eichmanns and Berias of the world.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Yeah, that TOS episode was closer to that line of thought than Past Tense. Edith Keeler had to die, so that the US could enter the war and help defeat Germany, which otherwise would have conquered the entire world. Letting her die and WW2 play out historically was the lesser evil. The known death of 80 million people was an acceptable price for Kirk and Spock to pay for their own existence, given that the alternative was 80 million + a number X of people the Nazis would have killed in their world domination tour + Y of people who never would have come into existence + Z of people who would have been killed in any future wars due to the Federation not existing and so on and so.

The premise was interesting, but the conclusion was political sperging. Nobody in the end acknowledged the solid fact that the sanctuary districts were a necessary condition for humanity to get their shit together. Bashir asked the wrong question in the end, the one that only someone with a moral superiority complex would ask, someone who isn't aware that his own existence has been afforded with the suffering and blood of others in a certain sequence of events that shouldn't be altered.

I think temporal psychosis doesn't hit you because you time travel too much. Nope, it affects you because you know you have to protect mass murderers, dictators, the Eichmanns and Berias of the world.

Seeing as how the Germans were far more invested in rocketry than the US, they probably did have a space-faring civilization, but they didn't answer the crew because the ship's name is the USS Bismarck, not the Enterprise. Or the simpler explanation of they are the source of the Terran Empire; they both got that Roman salute going on.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Seeing as how the Germans were far more invested in rocketry than the US, they probably did have a space-faring civilization, but they didn't answer the crew because the ship's name is the USS Bismarck, not the Enterprise. Or the simpler explanation of they are the source of the Terran Empire; they both got that Roman salute going on.

There's a ludicrous thought: the Terran Empire exists, because Italy under Mussolini won WW2. Now we're deep into pulp sci-fi territory.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

Nobody in the end acknowledged the solid fact that the sanctuary districts were a necessary condition for humanity to get their shit together.

Sisko risks his life to preserve that necessary condition. Watch the episodes again, you silly belly-worm.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Sisko risks his life to preserve that necessary condition. Watch the episodes again, you silly belly-worm.

No, what Sisko did was having a hand in ending the sanctuary districts when the circumstances demanded it. The camps themselves were a necessity - but so was dismantling them, and you can stay mad at me over that. The question Bashir should have asked in the end is "Was that really necessary?" and Sisko giving the answer: "So was putting an end to it."

You may ask why. Well, preservation of temporal consistency is the big one here. Without the sanctuary districts and the struggle for a better world, the Federation wouldn't have come to exist - which was the big reason for Sisko to fix shit in the first place. The camps needed to exist to create the right impetus to alter humanity's trajectory. Neither can exist without the other. The lesson drawn from this episode shouldn't be "haha look at the barbarian 21st century cavetrolls" (which is what unfortunately most people watching it learn from it), but "holy fucking shit, if things get bad enough, we have a mini-Lodz Ghetto in every city and we should create a much more humane society in which that isn't possible". That is by the way what humanity in the series over time did.

See, the thing with the Trek-timeline is that it's hinting that humanity had to walk a very, very fine line to be part of an utopian galactic hyperpower. Change too much shit here and there with timetravel bullshit and you destroy the entire deal. This is by the way why I hate SNW: they shifted a lot of fixed events around, because of "yeah, timetravel magic keeps the Eugenics Wars moving to the future". If that keeps happening, that one blooper they left in DS9 after Bashir was ratted out as an Augment about the Eugenics Wars happening 200 years ago from the mid 2370s' perspective will be a thing.

Or maybe I'm just high on migraine medicine and sleep depravation... pls don't hate me-

 

[Captain Syrup]

The only thing that really advanced was how efficiently you can turn a bunch of babies into pink mist from an ocean away. We churned through the “best and brightest,” and now everybody in modern politics (and the arts, as well) looks and sounds like Fred West.



It took France a century to recover from Napoleon feeding every virile male into a cannon; Russia is still dealing with a gender imbalance caused by Come and See, and so forth.

Mutually assured destruction bought us some time... we hope, or else the next war will destroy everything.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

So the rumbling I've heard (from random Youtubers, so take with a HUGE grain of salt) is that Kurtzmann's contribution to Trek is about to be launched into a black hole. Paramount-Skydance is not impressed, not pleased, and I suspect the only reason Kurtzmann is even employed is because it'd be more trouble to end his contract early.

Supposedly (again, salt shakers at the ready), Paramount is turning the reins over to Simon Kinberg. Kinberg is, in my opinion, kind of a mixed bag. He does seem to enjoy making fun popcorn flicks, but he's also got some real stinkers on his resume, and at one point he was tapped to write and co-produce more Star Wars flicks under Kathleen Kennedy. He does have producer credits on The Martian, Logan, and Deadpool, so there is that.

Honestly not sure if this is a good choice.

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

I ask myself what kind of mindset and subset of the population was wiped so thoroughly that humans could finally move to the stars.

What two major religions don't get mentioned in the Berman-era of Trek? There's your answer.

Now don’t get me wrong, I adore B5. Londo is one of the most interesting sci-fi characters ever written and Jurasik is phenomenal. That said there is just no way that B5 is better than DS9.

It is painfully obvious that they were limited with their budget sometimes to the detriment of the show. The actors are trying their best and really sell it but it fells so cheap at times, the amount of reused sets, or tight shots filmed against corridor walls, it gets distracting once you see it.

The entirety of season 5 is filler and leftover episodes and it feels like they’re just spinning their wheels. I like it because it turns into the Londo-G’Kar show but everything else was so dull, the telepath plot line goes nowhere.

There are definitely parts of B5 that surpass DS9, but DS9 is just a far more consistent show overall.

Now with that said, a spin off show with Londo, G’Kar, Quark and Garak would be the best thing ever made.

When I rewatched Babylon 5 to wash the taste of Star Trek: Quality Learing Academy out of my mouth I didn't skip an episode. I'm rewatching DS9 right now and I've skipped five or six episodes. The make up is far superior in Babylon 5 compared to the forehead and nose ridges of Star Trek. Yeah the show was cheap, it was on TNT and didn't have Paramount money behind it but it has soul. Season 5 sucks because of TNT fucking around and not deciding it'd be renewed or not.