Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Robert James]

Remove Hasperat.

Fair point about the Klingons' apparently unique ability and willingness to show up with a fuckton of warships at any given place and any time, but it's really not accurate to say that fighting is the only thing that they're good at. The Dominion War arc of DS9, for example, also demonstrates that they (somehow) have a terrifyingly competent intelligence service, to the point where Martok or Gowron can apparently just casually pull data on whatever matter Sisko needs at any given moment seemingly out of thin air.* If you don't simply chalk this up to lazy writing it suggests that there's a whole lot more going on with the Klingons behind the scenes than the Federation is really aware of or willing to acknowledge.

Exactly. And 24th century humans seem to be so heavily indoctrinated against acting with (overt) aggression under normal circumstances that the cheerful violence of Klingon society probably causes many of them to short-circuit from sheer cognitive dissonance when considering Klingons as a whole.

So I may be weird but the Klingons always made perfect sense as to why there so advanced. If you think about it some of our greatest technological achievements were developed in wartime or periods of hostility so a species that is always at war would by default be the most advanced since they would be in that constant state of growth. I know they come off as big boisterous buffoons but we know they have culture, we know that their government is structured enough to have a civil war and not an all-out brawl and we only get a look at the Klingons away from their home planet.

I may be thinking about it too much but even their concept of honor would make sense with Klingon scientists since they could track the number of kills their new invention caused and which families it helped. Since they are a warlike people they'd keep their best and brightest hidden away. The klingons that can't hack it as scientists leave their planet to claim honor. They may avoid living on the planet either out of jealousy of the people responsible for the deaths of thousands or because they know they'd pick a fight with a scientist and bring shame to their family. I could be drifting into the realms of fan fiction with this but it always seemed to me that the klingon society would consider the guy that made the cloaking system almost akin to their Emporer.

Mind you I think most people just classify them as space orks, including STD writers, and chalk their military might up to luck and being able to take a few fazor shots to the chest.

 

[Overly Serious]

So I may be weird but the Klingons always made perfect sense as to why there so advanced. If you think about it some of our greatest technological achievements were developed in wartime or periods of hostility so a species that is always at war would by default be the most advanced since they would be in that constant state of growth. I know they come off as big boisterous buffoons but we know they have culture, we know that their government is structured enough to have a civil war and not an all-out brawl and we only get a look at the Klingons away from their home planet.

I may be thinking about it too much but even their concept of honor would make sense with Klingon scientists since they could track the number of kills their new invention caused and which families it helped. Since they are a warlike people they'd keep their best and brightest hidden away. The klingons that can't hack it as scientists leave their planet to claim honor. They may avoid living on the planet either out of jealousy of the people responsible for the deaths of thousands or because they know they'd pick a fight with a scientist and bring shame to their family. I could be drifting into the realms of fan fiction with this but it always seemed to me that the klingon society would consider the guy that made the cloaking system almost akin to their Emporer.

Mind you I think most people just classify them as space orks, including STD writers, and chalk their military might up to luck and being able to take a few fazor shots to the chest.

All of the above is spot on! I think part of the reason people have this trouble picturing Klingons achieving an advanced society is the cultural indoctrination we get in the West of Smart Person = Weak Nerd. That's never really meshed up well for me in real life but TV shows and movies pump it out 24/7. Now there's some little basis to it in that smart people who can plan ahead and control their impulses are going to be less violent on the whole than those who are bad at anticipating consequences. But Klingons look like they're more robust than humans and in any case, a martial culture that values courage is going to change the risk-reward ratio of getting into fights significantly - and that's what it's all about for smart people. So not only does this set up modern Western audiences to struggle with the idea of advanced Klingons but in-universe the Federation would likely struggle with it a lot because their whole drive has been to move away from violence. To them, Pacifism = Advanced, Violence = Primitive. Klingons are a contradiction to them that they could easily underestimate.

Also, how much is development held back by an unwillingness to confront orthodoxy or outdated superiors who can't be removed? Klingon aggression could work well to mitigate both of those things. Though equally, it could lead to issues being resolved not on merit but on aggression. Still, is the net effect positive or negative? There's no definite reason to suppose it's negative.

 

[L50LasPak]

If you don't simply chalk this up to lazy writing it suggests that there's a whole lot more going on with the Klingons behind the scenes than the Federation is really aware of or willing to acknowledge.

I always figured a race as dedicated to war as the Klingons would actually have high respect for the people who figure out things like logistics, engineering, tactics, morale, intelligence, etc. All of these things win wars just as much as having big guns and being able to melee a dude with a sword. In Klingon society, people who disrespect the nerds that build their fun toys are probably not viewed with a ton of honor.

They probably go though periods of history where more scholarly pursuits are looked down upon when their weird clan system breaks down, but at the end of the day the guy who invented Disruptors probably had more bitches than the guy who invented the Kalashnikov. I blame that meme comic for making up this idea that Klingons are idiot space vikings. In an honorable society its not cool to pick on the weak. The reason Worf's son gets picked on in DS9 is because he legit sucks at his job. I don't think he's indicative of every Klingon nerd; a bunch of them probably have warriors lining up out the door to try out the newest super-sharp knife just like the blacksmiths of old.

A good grunt still knows how to repair and maintain their weaponry. And when you can't fix it yourself, you go to the guy who knows how.

So I may be weird but the Klingons always made perfect sense as to why there so advanced. If you think about it some of our greatest technological achievements were developed in wartime or periods of hostility so a species that is always at war would by default be the most advanced since they would be in that constant state of growth. I know they come off as big boisterous buffoons but we know they have culture, we know that their government is structured enough to have a civil war and not an all-out brawl and we only get a look at the Klingons away from their home planet.

Seconded. If anything the failing of the Klingons is not that they love war so much, its that they have a really feudalistic society almost bordering on medieval Crusader-era Knights. They spend about as much time fighting each other as they do their enemies.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Exactly. And 24th century humans seem to be so heavily indoctrinated against acting with (overt) aggression under normal circumstances that the cheerful violence of Klingon society probably causes many of them to short-circuit from sheer cognitive dissonance when considering Klingons as a whole.

*also, am I misremembering or was the Klingon restaurant on the DS9 Promenade really popular?

Yeah their was also the subtext that Klingon social norms had an emphasis on earnestness where being load as fuck and assertive was the way to go, I imagine the mild even tempered humans and stoic Vulcans probably came across as disingenious from their social ques. They also had operas, tea drinking rituals and other such normal people stuff.

One of the great things about DS9 was how much it spent fleshing out the cultures and characters,

You know when Dukat lost me, in terms of any hope of sympathy?

The episode where they set off the booby trap on DS9.

It showed me two things:

1) Dukat is a fucking prick
2) Dukat is such a fucking prick that the other space-nazis set a booby trap in his booby trap to get rid of him

In Dukats defence the entire Cardassian union pulled shit like that all the time and the Union made it very clear they wanted the station back.
Dukat was a total prick but that was what made him so fun. The only mistake they made with him was keeping him alive after Duet and making him evil sisko.

Fun fact about Cardassians is they see squabbling as heavy flirting which puts a real interesting spin on boths Dukats and Garaks interactions with the rest of the cast.

 

[GethN7]

I always figured a race as dedicated to war as the Klingons would actually have high respect for the people who figure out things like logistics, engineering, tactics, morale, intelligence, etc. All of these things win wars just as much as having big guns and being able to melee a dude with a sword. In Klingon society, people who disrespect the nerds that build their fun toys are probably not viewed with a ton of honor.

They probably go though periods of history where more scholarly pursuits are looked down upon when their weird clan system breaks down, but at the end of the day the guy who invented Disruptors probably had more bitches than the guy who invented the Kalashnikov. I blame that meme comic for making up this idea that Klingons are idiot space vikings. In an honorable society its not cool to pick on the weak. The reason Worf's son gets picked on in DS9 is because he legit sucks at his job. I don't think he's indicative of every Klingon nerd; a bunch of them probably have warriors lining up out the door to try out the newest super-sharp knife just like the blacksmiths of old.

A good grunt still knows how to repair and maintain their weaponry. And when you can't fix it yourself, you go to the guy who knows how.



Seconded. If anything the failing of the Klingons is not that they love war so much, its that they have a really feudalistic society almost bordering on medieval Crusader-era Knights. They spend about as much time fighting each other as they do their enemies.

The Klingon Empire books address this (The Brave and the Bold Part 2 and Diplomatic Implausibility are prequels and part of this series)

The same female Klingon who invented the Negh'Var class of Klingon vessel was assigned to a military post on the IKS Gorkon (she showed up in that TNG episode with the murder mystery between some alien engineers and really hated Dr. Crusher who was at the center of it). She admits she's well regarded for her engineering skills, to the point she's got a lot of pull in certain circles for making a class of ship that was basically a flagship for their entire military at one point.

However, that feudalistic society bit reared it's ugly head and her daddy told her "we don't have too many other males of suitable age to represent our family in the kicking ass department, and thus I'm tapping you to do it, and I'm pulling strings to make sure there isn't a way you can refuse."

She admits she hates that and would rather be happier in a tech lab dreaming up more ship designs, but she's been press-ganged into being a "warrior" and spends a lot of her time surly as hell over it.

 

[Lithos]

Wasn't there an episode of Enterprise where Archer gets put on trial in a Klingon court for some manufactured incident by Duras, whose entire family is filled with scheming assholes? While in prison, he is visited by his lawyer (played by J. G. Hertzler who always makes a fantastic Klingon). That lawyer was drunk and bitching about how Klingons used to be poets and scientists, now the young kids want to be warriors and shit. I can only imagine Klingon academies where the professors who teach philosophy and the arts are silenced by bushido-weebs.

(Edited to add from the plot synopsis of "Judgement": Back in the cells, Kolos is tasked with offering Archer a deal. Rather than plea bargain, Archer insists that Kolos actually work harder to put up a valid defense. In response, Kolos relates how the judiciary used to be about the law and honor, but more recently the warrior mindset meant that victories became the accepted norm.)

But then there's also the Klingons getting tired of being a slave race to the Hur'q, so they also could have evolved a "never again" mentality.

Scientists are lower-rung, but I think they like it that way. They don't get pushed around as much, except from maybe lab assistants who want to be leader of a project. You had that one woman who was working on the metaphasic shield project (ninja'ed by @GethN7 ). The project to help fly through a fucking sun. Then there was that scientist who developed a near-portable time travel device... that Warlord Janeway betrayed and stole his work.

Now, speaking of space nazis, Cardassians may have seemed like them, but don't forget that they did have literal space nazis in Enterprise. And I'm not talking about the Hirogen holodeck hunting program. They were just LARPing there.

Spoiler: Na'Khul

(In my Star Trek Adventures games, my alternate timeline was these guys were so stupid and fucked up so badly, they somehow ended up as members of the Federation in the "current" timeline: semi-responsible for the quasi-fascist nature of the Federation to begin with)

Worse still is that those episodes were literally called "Storm Front".

 

[L50LasPak]

However, that feudalistic society bit reared it's ugly head and her daddy told her "we don't have too many other males of suitable age to represent our family in the kicking ass department, and thus I'm tapping you to do it, and I'm pulling strings to make sure there isn't a way you can refuse."

She admits she hates that and would rather be happier in a tech lab dreaming up more ship designs, but she's been press-ganged into being a "warrior" and spends a lot of her time surly as hell over it.

As a rule I dislike EU stuff but it seemed to me her act in the epsiode itself came more from the fact that her technology wasn't immediately war-related, which would probably qualify her for the Klingons to give her shit. Also it is kind of weird to have a feudalistic society where you put your women into the combat zone if you don't have enough men, but I guess that fits with the USSR metaphor (they famously had female pilots and soldiers during WW2). There's probably always some kind of pressure to be a warrior because that's what the glory comes from, but I think there are stilll plenty of nerdy Klingons who get respect for figuring out how to blow shit up easier.

That lawyer was drunk and bitching about how Klingons used to be poets and scientists, now the young kids want to be warriors and shit. I can only imagine Klingon academies where the professors who teach philosophy and the arts are silenced by bushido-weebs.

Enterprise unfortunately didn't expand on this idea but it was a good one. The Empire probably goes back and forth though periods of decline where they become more foaming-at-the-mouth and begin to disrespect the people they need to keep things going. But when they pull it together they come back and stay martial but become more contemplative they're a force to be reckoned with..

 

[GethN7]

In Dukats defence the entire Cardassian union pulled shit like that all the time and the Union made it very clear they wanted the station back.

Dukat was a total prick but that was what made him so fun. The only mistake they made with him was keeping him alive after Duet and making him evil sisko.

From what I understand, Dukat was supposed to walk a fine line as a character. Never too good, just a very, very charming asshole who could make you want to believe he could be otherwise because of his sheer charisma.

However, they had the problem of walking that line, so they occasionally threw in episodes where Dukat could be a petty bastard just to remind you under the thick veneer of charm was still a scheming POS.

Character writing, however, kinda had a problem around the time of "Duet". The writers and even Dukat's actor were getting really disturbed by the "Dukat did nothing wrong" types because they never wanted the audience to forget "He can be very charming, but he's still an asshole at the end of the day."

Hence his increasingly loopy descent into insane cartoon super-villainy post "Duet", they kept him alive until the end of the show while trying desperately to purge any hint of delusion from the Dukat fans that underneath the charm was an egomaniacal bastard.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Hence his increasingly loopy descent into insane cartoon super-villainy post "Duet", they kept him alive until the end of the show while trying desperately to purge any hint of delusion from the Dukat fans that underneath the charm was an egomaniacal bastard.

I think you're thinking of "Waltz." "Duet" is the one that rips off homages Man in the Glass Booth with Kira and some guilt-ridden Cardassian pencil-pusher (who, fun fact, would be considered actually guilty in [current year] Germany.)

Yeah, Waltz was a pretty shit episode; even if Dukat was a bad guy, stripping away all the subtlety and nuance that made him interesting was a sour note to end on, and the subsequent return as a Captain Planet villain was just the cherry on the shit sundae.

 

[GethN7]

I think you're thinking of "Waltz." "Duet" is the one that rips off homages Man in the Glass Booth with Kira and some guilt-ridden Cardassian pencil-pusher (who, fun fact, would be considered actually guilty in [current year] Germany.)

Yeah, Waltz was a pretty shit episode; even if Dukat was a bad guy, stripping away all the subtlety and nuance that made him interesting was a sour note to end on, and the subsequent return as a Captain Planet villain was just the cherry on the shit sundae.

Derp, you're right, that's the episode I was thinking of.

I think they went a bit too far in the other direction personally, they didn't have to turn him batshit insane, at least not as far as they did, they just had to show the charm was a facade and when it's peeled back he's not a nice guy at all.

 

[Stab You in the Back]

In Dukats defence the entire Cardassian union pulled shit like that all the time and the Union made it very clear they wanted the station back.

The political scheming of the Cardassians is what makes them so endearing. Its a shame Civil Defense is the closest we ever got to a comedy episode about Cardassians backstabbing each other. I would've traded Profit & Lace for an episode about a young Obsidian Order officer's increasingly preposterous schemes to make Garak lose face.

 

[Flexo]

I think you're thinking of "Waltz." "Duet" is the one that rips off homages Man in the Glass Booth with Kira and some guilt-ridden Cardassian pencil-pusher (who, fun fact, would be considered actually guilty in [current year] Germany.)

I mean it has a lot in common with MitGB, but it seems hard to call it a rip off when the endings swerve so far apart.

I mean for one thing, for Duet to follow the source, then the cardassian on trial would have to have been a bajoran all along. Instead the episode takes a more powerful tact and looks at how oppression doesn't just victimize the oppressed, but the oppressors as well. MitGB has the subject go insane. What makes Duet work so well is that the cardassian is very, very sane.

What makes it memorable is that at the end, you realize he agreed with Kira all along ("All of them are guilty." "We all have to be punished.") and she ends the episode arguing with who she was at the start.

I would've traded Profit & Lace for an episode about a young Obsidian Order officer's increasingly preposterous schemes to make Garak lose face.

That was pretty much every episode Garak appeared in. Though we could always use more Garak episodes.

But if you need specific citations, Profit & Loss and Second Skin.

 

[ZMOT]

I always figured a race as dedicated to war as the Klingons would actually have high respect for the people who figure out things like logistics, engineering, tactics, morale, intelligence, etc. All of these things win wars just as much as having big guns and being able to melee a dude with a sword. In Klingon society, people who disrespect the nerds that build their fun toys are probably not viewed with a ton of honor.

not all nerds contribute to the war effort tho. an empire that values an honorable death probably doesn't think highly of medicine or how to prolong life, since no one wants to die of old age in bed or be a cripple for the rest of his life.

All of the above is spot on! I think part of the reason people have this trouble picturing Klingons achieving an advanced society is the cultural indoctrination we get in the West of Smart Person = Weak Nerd. That's never really meshed up well for me in real life but TV shows and movies pump it out 24/7.

I mostly watch anime these days, where it's the usually the complete opposite, but even before I wouldn't say I subscribed much to that idea. I think people into trek are more of the nerd variety anyway.

 

[Lithos]

I know I'm alone in this, but I would've liked to have seen more Vreenak. He delivered some of the best passionless snipes. Sure, he's know know as "IT'S A FAKE!" meme. Also granted he was just a senator and not Tal Shiar. Could have seen his power challenged by a hypothetical Dominion push post-conquering of the Federation. Knew his shuttle was rigged, transported to another cloaked ship. Then to have him come back and be catty to Picard with the whole evacuation debacle. A fan can dream...

For now, I think the DS9 races have been super-fleshed out thanks to their focus in the series, as well as some unforgettable characters. The Talarians are a big Alpha Quadrant empire, but they'd probably need an updated from their silly bumpy rubber reverse-mohawk. Tholians would be great, but CGI would be through the roof, unless they went practical like Pilot from Farscape. I'd like to see someone long-existent in the canon, but haven't been fully explored. The Tzenkethi War pre-DS9 would be fun, though I don't know of they'd go for the giant four-armed sharks of Star Trek Online.

Meh, I'll see how Orville and how they handle the Saudi Arabians Moclans. They're doing a fantastic job.

 

[Overly Serious]

I keep hearing about The Orville. Is it an actual cannon, official series or is it a fan thing?

 

[trekkor]

I keep hearing about The Orville. Is it an actual cannon, official series or is it a fan thing?

It's not related to ST at all, it's Seth MacFarlane's own series about a crew on a space ship that goes on adventures...

Basically, Seth is a huge Trekkie (he was even on ENT! and he's had so many Trek cast members voice act on Family Guy) but since CBS is what it is and Seth probably couldn't either wiggle himself into heading an official Trek series or didn't want to work under them, he made his own show. It's a comedy and before you disregard the show completely, it's strengths lie in the cast and feel of the show. The humour is very hit or miss, like all of his stuff, but the characters are actually real characters whose names I know and who I like and who have their own storylines not related to the shitty main character. You get a nice feel of the world they live in and really, the thing is very cozy. It hits that episodic (well, half-episodic) itch very well, which also allows for experiments in different types of stories. Not every episode is a hit, but S2 especially had a very strong mid-way point. Also the show doesn't look like ass. Some Trek actors show up as well!

If STD or STP ever get you down, and you want some new Trek-like content for a change, I'd suggest going to The Orville.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Instead the episode takes a more powerful tact and looks at how oppression doesn't just victimize the oppressed, but the oppressors as well. MitGB has the subject go insane. What makes Duet work so well is that the cardassian is very, very sane.

Have to disagree with this part. Maritza is a PTSD basket case whose brilliant plan was to impersonate a guy known to be dead (like, full public military funeral and everything), go to DS9, and get arrested and executed by the Bajorans as some sort of Manichean racial penance. (Though a different twist the story could have taken would be as an indictment of the Bajorans and their thirst for revenge, that they were willing to punish a guy who literally cannot be the person he's being judged as.)

 

[Lithos]

It's not related to ST at all, it's Seth MacFarlane's own series about a crew on a space ship that goes on adventures...

Basically, Seth is a huge Trekkie (he was even on ENT! and he's had so many Trek cast members voice act on Family Guy) but since CBS is what it is and Seth probably couldn't either wiggle himself into heading an official Trek series or didn't want to work under them, he made his own show. It's a comedy and before you disregard the show completely, it's strengths lie in the cast and feel of the show. The humour is very hit or miss, like all of his stuff, but the characters are actually real characters whose names I know and who I like and who have their own storylines not related to the shitty main character. You get a nice feel of the world they live in and really, the thing is very cozy. It hits that episodic (well, half-episodic) itch very well, which also allows for experiments in different types of stories. Not every episode is a hit, but S2 especially had a very strong mid-way point. Also the show doesn't look like ass. Some Trek actors show up as well!

If STD or STP ever get you down, and you want some new Trek-like content for a change, I'd suggest going to The Orville.

The episode with the two Star Trek doctors (Phlox and EMH) actors was incredibly tense. And this was despite the show being a hidden way to get rid of an ex-girlfriend.

 

[Prompt Critical]

Fair point about the Klingons' apparently unique ability and willingness to show up with a fuckton of warships at any given place and any time, but it's really not accurate to say that fighting is the only thing that they're good at. The Dominion War arc of DS9, for example, also demonstrates that they (somehow) have a terrifyingly competent intelligence service, to the point where Martok or Gowron can apparently just casually pull data on whatever matter Sisko needs at any given moment seemingly out of thin air.* If you don't simply chalk this up to lazy writing it suggests that there's a whole lot more going on with the Klingons behind the scenes than the Federation is really aware of or willing to acknowledge.

In fairness, this was at least suggested as far back as TOS - with the reveal in the finale of The Trouble With Tribbles that the attache to some random Federation bureaucrat in the middle of nowhere was actually a deep cover Klingon agent.

 

[UnKillFill]

The episode with the two Star Trek doctors (Phlox and EMH) actors was incredibly tense. And this was despite the show being a hidden way to get rid of an ex-girlfriend.

I forgot about that. McFarlane was banging girl who played the alien chick right? Then he fired her when they broke up.

Baller move right there.