Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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DS9 ship battles were made to fit on a CRT TV in 4:3. There just isn't room to put that many ships in frame all at once without also making them tiny-looking at the end of Endgame. That's why the space tactics get excused. Abramsverse doesn't get that excuse. What Plinkett complained about in Revenge of the Sith became an industry standard.
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
I dunno, this seems really contradictory to me. You first say one can't compare DS9 to nuTrek, then you go on to describe how they basically do the same thing.

DS9 started the trend of gritty Trek, which was fine as a one off. Unfortunately, for one reason or the other (most likely not to ape DS9 but rather to draw in the Micheal Bay crowd), Abramtrek made it a lot more gritty. Kurtzmantrek made it even worse and slapped some really poorly executed political shit into the show in a hamfisted manner, not out of conviction, but rather to cash in on a trend. Comparisons are more than justified, if only to show why DS9 was doing a good job at what it did and nuTrek just doesn't.
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It isn't contradictory at all, you're just an idiot. (I'd say 'no offense', but I'd be lying.) DS9 being more "gritty" than other trek at the time was alright back then because that wasn't every single fucking Trek story at the time. It was a nice contrast, and as I already said, it was the perfect counterpoint to the "utopian" (and let's be honest, often milquetoast) TNG. *At the time.*

Something that's neat when it's a rarity doesn't always work when it becomes the norm, and that's a large part of why pretty much everything since JJ Trek has been trash. "Dark and gritty Trek" is definitely now the norm, and unlike DS9 it isn't even written well anymore. I'm willing to agree that there are some *minor* similarities between DS9 and current day Trek, but they really aren't even remotely the same.

Desert is fine to eat from time to time, but if every single meal was desert, I'd get sick of it quickly. I bet you would too.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
DS9 ship battles were made to fit on a CRT TV in 4:3.
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It certainly is a huge difference between the CRT TVs of yesteryear and the giant flat screen TVs of today. Nowadays, you would get away with a less crowded shot where the ships still can shine, thanks to screens about 6 times the size of an old-timey CRT, but what we get is a super-close-up of random shit flying across the screen. The screens have become larger and the scope has become smaller.
In one of the STD re:Views, Mike pointed out how much he hates nuTrek for always jumping right into whatever the fuck is going on and how that is the most annoying thing about it and I can't help but agreeing with him. Action scenes are not allowed to really breathe or get some buildup. They jump right into the fight with thunderous explosions, so the Michael Bay fans wake up from their "not a fightscene with massive explosions"-induced stupor.

In general modern cinematography is way too reliant on shakey close-ups and fast cutting. Any fight choreographed like that is bound to be a confusing mess. It gets extra stupid when it's a 3D movie, cause every cut creates a short delay during which the brain needs to piece together the new scene. It's like a stereoscopic strobe light and it looks like ass.
STD and STP perfectly highlight that, they crank up the action in a fight scene so much, it becomes annoying to watch. And incidently, as the audience, we have barely any guideline to tell who is gaining the upper hand, cause it literally cuts to a new massive cloud of ships engaging in laserslapfights every split second. So much shit going on in every shot, you have no time to process more than "big ship go boom" before it cuts to next "big ship go boom".

UnKillShredDur said:
It isn't contradictory at all, you're just an idiot. (I'd say 'no offense', but I'd be lying.) DS9 being more "gritty" than other trek at the time was alright back then because that wasn't every single fucking Trek story at the time. It was a nice contrast, and as I already said, it was the perfect counterpoint to the "utopian" (and let's be honest, often milquetoast) TNG. *At the time.*
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Calm your tits, no need to get this salty :story:
I am not throwing the least bit of shade on DS9 whatsoever, I am just pointing out that claiming there is no comparison between DS9 and nuTrek before going into detail how they do the same thing for different reasons (and with different success/effect) is not a smart move.

UnKillShredDur said:
Something that's neat when it's a rarity doesn't always work when it becomes the norm, and that's a large part of why pretty much everything since JJ Trek has been trash. "Dark and gritty Trek" is definitely now the norm, and unlike DS9 it isn't even written well anymore. I'm willing to agree that there are some *minor* similarities between DS9 and current day Trek, but they really aren't even remotely the same.
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I wholeheartedly agree and at no point indicated anything else.
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
DS9 started the trend of gritty Trek,
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I agreed with most of your post except this part. Deep Space Nine is grittier than TNG by a wide margin, but DS9 was not the first gritty Trek series. That would be TOS. TOS's universe is downright fucking terrifying. The show deals with extremely disturbing subjects like the spread of deadly disease, PTSD, mental illness, mutually assured destruction, and many eldritch horrors lurking in the galaxy just waiting to wipe out whole swathes of civilization.

The episode with the giant space ameboa starts with a sister ship of the enterprise being destroyed, and then when they arrive at the star system in question, Kirk comments that there were billions of people on that world. Gone. Dead, just like that. And that's just one example. More than once the Enterprise comes across a civilization which has suffered some kind of apocalypse. In one case Kirk is ready to straight up annhilate an alien civilization simply because they're hostile and he feels he is out of options. DS9 barely shows us anything like that; Sisko fires toxic torpedoes at a planet with a few thousand Maquis once. Big whoop, Kirk was willing to just wipe out an entire civilization.

There's also quite a bit of people losing heir minds on the show. In some cases the acting is terrible and the mental breaks look hilarious, but in other cases its actually pretty disturbing. Highlight include Dr. Daystrom losing his shit and Commodore Decker sobbing over the loss of his crew that he feels personally responsible for killing. His character arc straight up ends with his suicide, including a scene where both Kirk and Spock try to talk him down and fail.

Don't even get me started on how dark and violent Wrath of Khan is.

DS9 is gritty Trek for sure, but TOS beat it to the punch decades earlier. Its one of the reasons its still my favorite out of all of the Trek series. I think RLM sells it a little short when they call it a "horror series" because that's not what the whole show is about, but at the same time yeah, it can do horror just fine when it wants to.
 
Intelligent Calcium said:
It's kind of a shame I never experienced it the intended way. It's not the same if you can just go to the next episode right after.
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The last "television event" I remember like this was Who Shot Mr Burns.. over 25 years ago now. Today we have the opposite, mountains of streaming turds, too much to ever watch..
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
Calm your tits, no need to get this salty :story:
I am not throwing the least bit of shade on DS9 whatsoever, I am just pointing out that claiming there is no comparison between DS9 and nuTrek before going into detail how they do the same thing for different reasons (and with different success/effect) is not a smart move.
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I had already explained my answer, and I just did it again. It's more than fine if you disagree with me, but you didn't seem to get it the first two times, what the hell I'll try it one more time.

Yeah, you can say that DS9 was *relatively* "dark and gritty" compared to other Trek at the time, but it was always still very clearly Trek. Just because post JJ trek took "dark and gritty" and dialed it up to 11, doesn't mean that DS9 is the reason why Trek got dark and gritty. Voyager and Enterprise which both came after DS9 were decidedly not that.
 
ToroidalBoat said:
How long did people have to wait then?

Also this was before the internet took off.
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About three months. The summer was when they aired reruns, which is why when Patrick Stewart told the story about what a fan told him about Best of Both Worlds with "You ruined my summer!"

UnKillShredDur said:
I had already explained my answer, and I just did it again. It's more than fine if you disagree with me, but you didn't seem to get it the first two times, what the hell I'll try it one more time.

Yeah, you can say that DS9 was *relatively* "dark and gritty" compared to other Trek at the time, but it was always still very clearly Trek. Just because post JJ trek took "dark and gritty" and dialed it up to 11, doesn't mean that DS9 is the reason why Trek got dark and gritty. Voyager and Enterprise which both came after DS9 were decidedly not that.
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It's not even a matter of "dark," but maturity. Star Trek stories are generally written with actual adult sensibilities. Worrying about interstellar politics, worrying about professional standing, worrying about long-term consequences like mental health. Abramsverse isn't concerned with that sort of thing. The Kelvin movies were aimed at the 13-25 male audience where what matters is getting from one action set piece to the next. ST: D is aimed at childless Disney+ soypods. ST: P is aimed at Patrick Stewart because it sure doesn't entertain regular people of any age. Plenty of dark stuff happens on these shows, but it's what a fifteen year-old would think of as edgy and shocking. Which is really annoying to anyone who isn't a fifteen year-old shitlord.
 
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L50LasPak said:
I agreed with most of your post except this part. Deep Space Nine is grittier than TNG by a wide margin, but DS9 was not the first gritty Trek series. That would be TOS. TOS's universe is downright fucking terrifying. The show deals with extremely disturbing subjects like the spread of deadly disease, PTSD, mental illness, mutually assured destruction, and many eldritch horrors lurking in the galaxy just waiting to wipe out whole swathes of civilization.

The episode with the giant space ameboa starts with a sister ship of the enterprise being destroyed, and then when they arrive at the star system in question, Kirk comments that there were billions of people on that world. Gone. Dead, just like that. And that's just one example. More than once the Enterprise comes across a civilization which has suffered some kind of apocalypse. In one case Kirk is ready to straight up annhilate an alien civilization simply because they're hostile and he feels he is out of options. DS9 barely shows us anything like that; Sisko fires toxic torpedoes at a planet with a few thousand Maquis once. Big whoop, Kirk was willing to just wipe out an entire civilization.

There's also quite a bit of people losing heir minds on the show. In some cases the acting is terrible and the mental breaks look hilarious, but in other cases its actually pretty disturbing. Highlight include Dr. Daystrom losing his shit and Commodore Decker sobbing over the loss of his crew that he feels personally responsible for killing. His character arc straight up ends with his suicide, including a scene where both Kirk and Spock try to talk him down and fail.

Don't even get me started on how dark and violent Wrath of Khan is.

DS9 is gritty Trek for sure, but TOS beat it to the punch decades earlier. Its one of the reasons its still my favorite out of all of the Trek series. I think RLM sells it a little short when they call it a "horror series" because that's not what the whole show is about, but at the same time yeah, it can do horror just fine when it wants to.
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You know, I glossed over a lot of the disturbing shit in TOS cause it's an old show with sometimes goofy acting, that likes to end on Kirk and crew laughing in a freeze frame every now and then, but you are one hundred percent correct. TOS is pretty fucking dark at times and by no means a setting where people just frolic around deep space without a care in the world.



UnKillShredDur said:
Just because post JJ trek took "dark and gritty" and dialed it up to 11, doesn't mean that DS9 is the reason why Trek got dark and gritty.
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I never said that it was the reason why Star Trek became gritty in the post remake:
RomanesEuntDomus said:
for one reason or the other (most likely not to ape DS9 but rather to draw in the Micheal Bay crowd), Abramtrek made it a lot more gritty.
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Quite the opposite.
 
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Nick Gurs said:
They had some pretty fucked up Isreali parodies of star trek TNG specifically over there that are actually on youtube still.
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Are you referring to General Grin? His parodies are fucked up but they're funny. I needed the one where Worf ejaculated mint frosting on Wesley's face a couple days ago but couldn't find it. I wonder if they're in Memory Gamma.

Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
Which does beg the question of why the Vulcans would bother rebuilding Earth in the first place. Cochrane's community was in the middle of the woods. Wouldn't it make more sense for the Vulcans to uplift that one community and take them to Vulcan for enlightenment purposes instead?
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It would make even more sense to drop a photon torpedo on Bozeman and keep the human cancer from spreading through the galaxy. But if warp one is the milestone at which Vulcans make contact, it would be logical to establish contact with the whole planet. Cochrane might have been the first to build a warp drive, but the underlying principles were probably fairly common knowledge in Earth's scientific community. If the world's foremost subspace field drive development team disappeared a couple days after demonstrating FTL travel, every other nation-state with launch capability would be trying to replicate and extend his work.

UnKillShredDur said:
Desert is fine to eat from time to time, but if every single meal was desert, I'd get sick of it quickly. I bet you would too.
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Desert is an arid region. Dessert is something you eat from time to time.
Desert has one 's' because you only want to cross it once.
Dessert has two 's's because you want to eat it twice.
 
Honestly one thing thats always bugged me about the Dominion War was how amateurish the actual war parts of it seemed when the action moved away from ship to ship combat which itself was getting a tad too star wars for the setting.

Everyone is still waddling around on the ground in their ordinary starfleet uniforms and firing off like they were just given the phaser and shown how to use it five minutes beforehand despite being months/years into the nastiest war in galactic history to the point where your average WW1 conscript squad or third world militia looks like seal team 6 by comparison solely due to having appropriate weapons/camo/equipment/training for any form of combat.

I get the whole meta narrative of "the federation has grown stupidly soft and pacifistic and is thus unprepared for a real threat or real war" that i mentioned a couple pages ago, but even when factoring this in it doesnt make sense they would be this fucking inept for so long in refusing to arm or train themselves in a war for survival, and it still doesnt explain why the dominion/klingon ground forces are hardly any better themselves despite ostensibly being uber-warriors

In other shows this made more sense and was not quite as jarring, as barring latter day Enterprise none of the shows really dealt with long-term war and accordingly it was far easier to accept when ship officers suddenly found themselves in combat that they would not be armed/dressed or even trained for the occasion.

Hell speaking of enterprise, the showrunners there atleast had the idea to introduce the MACOs in order to remove this issue and actually have something resembling soldiers when fighting a war.
 
XYZpdq said:
afaik all of trek has moondubs, and at least TNG onward ran vaguely concurrent with its USA release
like legends say one of the VAs for G Gundam was cast because the director was like "dude fukking you voice Data that's baller af"
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The blu rays got the jap. dub and watching TNG with them is quite the experience.
 

PURUNU JUUSU DA!
it actually is pretty rad

Worf and Riker sound badass and Data has a really fitting voice, too.
 
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