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I haven't read those books. Would you care to summarize?
Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier
- Thread starter Snorlaxative
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I'll post the actual page later when I get back to my library but the quick and dirty is that after First Contact (the movie), Beverly Crusher wiped Cochrane and Lily's memories. Well it didn't seem to quite take with Cochrane so as he's meeting the Vulcans, he's debating whether to tell them about these cybernetic people out there who are a threat to the galaxy...
The implications being that he decides not to and we get our regular trek AND he decides to do so, leading to a more militaristic starfleet to fight the threat... ergo the mirror universe.
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it's neat how it works on a lot of different levels, just the basic idea, the parody of Gene Rodd idea, and even the redemption in the idea of what you're talking, that for as much as Trek was Gene's hustle to get laid, sell studio property through his shady front company, and all that shit, at the end of the day it still did some good.
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I will never understand the hate that movie gets. I fucking love every moment of that film and legit consider it the best one of the TNG movies.
The last time Star Trek was good.
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Nemesis is depressing because that's when the audience really start to notice just how old everyone is getting. It's also the movie where the TNG crew finally split off for good. Riker and Troi get married because they both are 50 and single together, Crusher is leaving to be in charge of Starfleet Medical, Geordi left too for another post, Worf is just visiting as he left a decade ago, and Data dies. Picard is the only one left on the E and doesn't quit despite the events of Nemesis. Picard is that old man in an empty house.
Which would have been an interesting premise on its own, but the movie shies away from it with this Picard clone plot and action shenanigans happen. Picard simply can't bond with Shinzon because, like Sela, any part of him that was human died a long time ago. Picard had more of a bond with Jason Vigo. And Shinzon just wants to shoot everyone with his petrification beam.
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See I actually liked how it showed the band breaking up and going their separate ways. They've been together a long time and had a good thing going, but its natural to see co workers go on to better things. Same thing happened with the TOS crew between 6 and generations, they just didn't show it. Really the only thing I ever got pissed off on, was we never got to see Riker in command of the Titan till lower decks.
Picard is shown doing pretty well for himself after the movie in Elite Force 2.
I dont understand how people dont like the Picard clone plot. Tom Hardy and Stewart act the shit out of all the scenes they are in and there is a real horror to it. To have what is essentially another soul bound and wrapped in your image secretly corrupted. Picard views him like a son or brother he never knew and is desperately trying to connect with him. Shinzon is bound by the life he has lived, and the small sparks of humanity seen in him are not enough to overcome his naked ambitions and desires.
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Clone plots are a bad sign in any ailing franchise.
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And we don't get enough scenes like that. So much of the movie is Picard and Data getting into shootouts.
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I love those scenes. Maybe you guy's couldn't buy it, but I legit liked how they did them. More inventive and fun then every gun fight in Nu trek combined.
I dont remember that many evil picard episodes back in TNG. there are a few were he's duplicated, impersonated or possessed, but nothing entirely focused around an evil version of himself. There was no mirror mirror episode in TNG.
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You have to admit, the scene where Picard finds out he has a clone could have been handled a bit better. He barely even reacts.
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Sexual Chocolate
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Shinzon sucked as a bad guy, partly because we've seen "brooding depressed asshole antagonist" too many times in fiction. It didn't work any better in Generations with Malcolm McDowell, or Star Trek 2009 with Eric Banana, or that shitty remake of Wrath of Khan.
Khan (the real one), General Chang and the Borg Queen were better enemies because they were more interesting and charismatic characters. The TNG series also had a lot of well written and very memorable bad guys like Madred the torturer, that Jewish guy who kidnapped Data, and the lady who was running a scam on a planet by pretending to be the Devil.
These characters had personalities and motivations that made them fun to watch. Khan was a scene-chewing superman who wanted revenge for the death of his wife, the Borg Queen was a body horror BDSM aficionado who wanted to cyber, and Chang was a courageous space samurai who wanted to talk about Shakespeare.
What was Shinzon's master plan again? Oh yeah, "exterminate all life with [technobabble] radiation". This is boring and dumb, and would shame a mid 90's FMV video game cutscene.
And the clone thing was completely pointless. It made no difference to Shinzon's generic evil maniac behavior, or the dumb plot, and the script had nothing interesting to say about it.
Khan (the real one), General Chang and the Borg Queen were better enemies because they were more interesting and charismatic characters. The TNG series also had a lot of well written and very memorable bad guys like Madred the torturer, that Jewish guy who kidnapped Data, and the lady who was running a scam on a planet by pretending to be the Devil.
These characters had personalities and motivations that made them fun to watch. Khan was a scene-chewing superman who wanted revenge for the death of his wife, the Borg Queen was a body horror BDSM aficionado who wanted to cyber, and Chang was a courageous space samurai who wanted to talk about Shakespeare.
What was Shinzon's master plan again? Oh yeah, "exterminate all life with [technobabble] radiation". This is boring and dumb, and would shame a mid 90's FMV video game cutscene.
And the clone thing was completely pointless. It made no difference to Shinzon's generic evil maniac behavior, or the dumb plot, and the script had nothing interesting to say about it.
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For better or worse, my family shares in that knowledge.
No not really. Picard was maintaining a poker face as he's trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Wouldn't be natural for a commander to openly lose his shit in front of his men anyway. He doesn't say much, but his face paints a picture of confusion, anger, then shock.
Eric Banana was shit, that is true. but Malcolm McDowell? You take that back.
It feels like such a superficial criticism of the character, because he really does have personality and more then one motivation for his plan. Which isnt just to kill everyone as you said, but to extract Picard's blood to survive his clone degeneration, destroy Earth to strike a blow against starfleet, and then lead the Romulan empire as emperor. This way he will gain the respect of the people who have oppressed him for so long, free the Remans who saved his life and nurture his ambitions as a conqueror.
Without the clone plot it wouldn't have been as personal or as interesting. You would have gotten another boring ass evil villian Nero. But with the clone plot? Picard has someone to bounce off of. Someone to try to save just as much as stop. It's also an examination of the life he's lived and how it could have been different under other circumstances.
His need for Picards blood also gives perfect reasoning for why he wouldn't immediately destroy the enterprise. When too much time has passed and he knows he's fucked beyond repair, that's when he decides to go full kill everything mode.
What does RDM think of it? I get the feeling you share talking points and I dont really put stock in anything they say, after they gave Disney ideas on how to fuck star wars in the ass.
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Perhaps Nemesis had been a much better movie if it was a direct sequel to Generations, after Picard finds out that he loses his family and then he finds the closest to a "son".
BScCollateral
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Or, more likely, you have really shit taste in movies.
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Sexual Chocolate
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You could make a good sci fi version of Spartacus, but Star Trek: Nemesis wasn't it because it wasn't fun or interesting enough to make most people who suffered through that movie care.
TNG already did a What If episode about Picard's life that was way more satisfying than asking "what if Picard was a genocidal asshole who looked nothing like Picard?"
Plz no bully