Goonclown Steven Bonnell II / Destiny / Destiny.gg - Emotionally Unstable Manchild, Creeps on Teenagers, Incest Supporter, Degenerate Foot Sniffer, Cum Felcher, Gooner

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ATTENTION
Special rules for the Destiny thread.
  • Don't engage footsoldiers. Whiteknights do not need 100 responses to every bait post; exercise restraint. Do not give attention to people who join and bomb the thread with negative reactions.
  • Practice harm reduction. Read our prudent poster's guide.
  • Don't write open letters to Destiny. It is very annoying attention seeking behavior. Just write normal posts.
It’s a pretty big sex pest red flag if you have over 10 videos of your solo masturbation to dispense to random girls you chat with (who you have zero reason to trust, but tiny either doesn’t care or is a gullible retard). Who does this shit, it’s totally bizarre AF. I find it hard to believe women like dick photos that much or videos of dudes masturbating, it’s cringe and not sexy. Maybe if you’re in an actual close intimate relationship and you want to see how your partner likes it (not tiny circumstances of I just started DMing you an hr ago) but how many women are watching these with the intention of climaxing, especially to his dick. Secondly does he film them for his own pleasure since he’s such a cum lord who loves his own semen. Imagine getting off to your own dune worm wiener, dude’s mind is mash potatoes at this point. Imagine thinking you’re cool and suave leaving this porn star live style. Nobody really wants that life my man. Dumb, young retards that listen to him might idolize it, but adults with normal and logical brain function know it’s empty and you really get nothing from it except an occasional STD.
 
Im so fucking late, but I wanted to repost this amazing gif from the Sharty during downtime.
Destiny-Tom.GIF
 
holy shit bro. What do you think is more likely, he went to each of these people and asked “hey is it cool if I share videos of you performing sex acts with the strangers I’m courting online?” and then received affirmative consent from ALL of them or did he just overshare because he’s a pornsick weirdo?

>uhhhhhh EVIDENCE MUCH????
I’ve filmed a woman while we were having sex thinking she knew yet she didn’t. I showed it to her later and she said she had no idea I’d done that. (Obviously I never shared it because anyone that thinks it’s ok, cool, and normal to share to porn is fucking weird)

Even if the women knew before hand that they were being filmed, your point stands. I have zero faith Tiny asked to share those videos with someone else, and I bet in some of them (to be fair I didn’t watch them all) the girls had no idea they were being filmed.

For example the one with that girl giving a blowie (pixie? Or whatever). She might not even know she was filmed doing that.

Edit : grammar
 
Wait a minute, something just struck me while watching this video in my recommended feed.

Now you see, Destiny often times wears a butt plug, potentially while debating. Who is to say he doesn't do what that one chess master did and use a performance enhancing butt plug to feed himself information on topics?

If this is true, that means Destiny is literally arguing out of his ass.
 
Wasn't she very young when she started coming on stream?
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Yes. It's often ignored, but that "Autistic_Destiny" girl was also seen in his dms
That's another girl that came into his orbit either when she was about to turn 18 (so 17) or was recently 18. So another young adult/late teens. He also met with that girl IRL, with Melina during a twitchcon and was hanging out with her, Zherka, and another young friend of her.
She's also autistic, which continues the pattern of him selecting for mental illness, or people who aren't all there in the head.

Other girls in the dms:
  • kindashelly, don't know if that's Shelly that's in his discord, or was it jstlks'. Don't know anything about this person.
  • Sarah Nelia Theresa, which I search her instagram for, and I already had bookmarked so I must have seen her interact with him in some way in the past. Isn't one of his ex (or maybe even two) called "Theresa". What was Tigerlily's real name? Doesn't seem to be Tigerlily, unless she got a nose job, so I'm guessing it's his other ex if I'm not misremembering? I remember that Melina and Destiny flew out to "hangout" (have sex) with that ex a couple times. So it could potentially be her if I'm not misremembering her name.
  • pepczar, is Pepart. She appeared on stream a couple times. Pretty sure she doesn't like Tiny anymore, can't remember if it was the mrgirl article and Lav that convinced her that Tiny was a bad person. But I believe she became a Max fan, but don't quote me on that. I've mentioned her in passing a couple times in the past in my Blav account.
first one that comes to mind is the "PepArt" girl? was that her name? huge nose, looked jewish. I think that one unfollowed him a while ago (during the Max/Lav investigation if I'm not mistaken), but he definitely fucked her/sexted her ( I don't think they were even trying to hide it) (she only appeared a few times so it's no surprise if no one knows who I'm talking about).
Just stumbled upon her randomly ( I was googling something irrelevant related to Aella and the Aaron guy)
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That's the girl.
  • episkey, no idea who they are.
  • Autistic_Destiny, autistic girl, very immature and young.
  • RoseisCumming, girl of the hour
  • NotsoErudite, braindamaged (genuinely, got kicked on the head by a horse, or fell from a horse and hit her head, can't remember).
  • Ninou, retard french with big nose and big tits. Also Melina's assistant, gets paid by both Tiny and the snow chimp, does basically ZERO work for either of them.
  • Zorus, no idea, but likely also a girl.
(thanks to Code Cave for the picture, as I had completely forgotten that it happened until he posted it in the thread)


I think drip feed leaks end up dousing their effect. A full dump is usually better.

I also suspect that Solo is more parasocial with Destiny than he leads on. The whole thing smells the more I think about it.
Probably true. Still, think about how much Solo has done for the thread in just a week.
He basically confirmed a theory that I had to fight on the daily with people with when I first started to try to prove, and which was basically going to stay being as nothing more than a theory, as people were only ever going to believe Destiny and Lauren themselves about their relationship together, seeing as though even when Melina herself spoke about the affair people still denied it.
Now everyone knows it to be true.

(Goku you can stop reading here if you want, the rest is me ranting)

We fought for the longest time that Destiny was an absurd sex addict, even worse than his fans are willing to admit to when they bellieve his own words, proving that he takes multiple "bathroom breaks" during stream to go masturbate to the other room with his phone and eat his cum.

I argued that pretty much any woman that comes on stream Destiny has either fucked or tried to fuck, the Pxie leak, and how much Pxie and Tiny lied about it, and the fact that he sent that extremely likely without Pxie's consent has made a bunch of people not only the thread, but also his own fans, realize that he's genuinely predatory with how he goes after women.
I say "extremely likely without Pxie's consent" because if you've been long enough in the thread you know that Destiny does this thing in which he asks the girls whether he can record the encounters and send it to other girls, Destiny seems to genuinely have a complete cuckold fetish, but he seems to also like to cuckold other people (which is why he will often encourages women to cheat on their bfs/husbands with him, or purposely sleep with the gfs of fans, cuckolding them. He seems to be able to switch between being submissive and dominant, as he explains during the leaked logs, although he seems to be mostly submissive, unironically probably due to his childhood molestation).
It's known that Destiny asks for some sort of consent of sending his sextapes that he films with girls to other women, and they probably

That's really the question, does Destiny ask for ACTUAL INFORMED consent. Do the women he fucks and manipulates for years really know how many women he's sending their videos to, the fact that A LOT of them are extremely mentally ill (so far as being ACTUALLY schizophrenic, not a cute "schizo" as it's used for deranged online behaviour, but as in their have actual mental/physical/auditory delusions of reality), or that he's sexting and providing these videos to underage girls (Rose) with whom he's sexting with?
The answer is obviously no. However, that statement, and that "false" consent that he asks from his whores, is what he will always retread to, and what when, IF it does, come out that Pxie gave some kind of consent of her porn being sent to other woman (an underage girl, to be correct, mind you) that's what both Tiny and his fans will use as a defense.

That's Destiny's whole thing through every facet of his life, he will twist and turn words to make what he please with them. That's why he chooses to lie by omission. He will often give half truths, with the things that he's omitting being the most important part. His footsoldiers will do the rest for him to defend him/argue that the biggest part isn't true.


You don't know how many times I've argued with Destiny fans in the thread, or in random 4chan threads, about how Destiny is pretty much all the things that have been confirmed this week. Two weeks ago I was arguing in a random /v/ thread with some of them. They were telling me that Destiny doesn't eat cum out of women's pussies, that he's not technically a cuck because he sleeps with so many woman (something that is completely irrelevant for whether or not you have a cuckold fetish), about the LS affair being false, about Destiny not reading the thread as compulsively as he obviously does, etc.

You can't argue with these people. If you grant the average Destiny fan that the average MAGA/Trumper is in a cult, what they are in, that is their relationship with Destiny, is genuinely worse.
Which is why I wrote that they go like this:
( for the following example X can be anything like LS affair, Destiny eating cum out of the girls he sleeps with, and probably Melina's, pussies', Destiny having an actual cuckold fetish, Destiny being an ACTUAL UNIRONIC ebebophile, etc. )
  • "X" isn't true.
(Someone posts solid arguments for "X" in the thread)
  • To say "X" is true you have to be deranged. Stop posting fanfic schizo/kiwifarmer.
(Outsider, semi official source, so someone that knows Melina or Tiny leaks "X")
  • "X" is partially true, but you are making up the rest to make it seem worse than it is. Take your meds.
  • "X" is probably true, but who cares, you are obsessed and mentally ill.
(Extremely reliable source confirms "X", shows proof by video/leaked dms, or the source is Tiny's exwife or extremely ex-close friends of him)
  • Who cares if "X" is true? let the man live his life.
  • We've always known "X" is true, kys.
It's an actual cult.


Regarding this consent thing, again.
It's pretty funny. Because Stasia (one of the girls in the leaked videos) has hinted/spoken/talked about it in jstlk's discord, regarding the Amumu/Jakobokaj/BabyPeach/Destiny/Nikosam leaked sextape drama, that Destiny never gave actual consent like Peach is arguing for.

So again. Destiny agrees to some extent that the porn tapes that he films with the girls to be sent to third parties who any of them want to sext with. The thing is, like Stasia brought up regarding BabyPeach, and I have also argued in the thread. Destiny wanted Peach to sext the tapes with people she trusted and knew wouldn't leak it, a close friend.
Destiny, obviously, didn't want BabyPeach to send his sextapes to EVERY schizo dgger that she started to sext with, all whom eventually got repulsed by her when they realized how much of a deranged mentally ill weirdo she is.
Destiny, does the EXACT SAME THING (I've argued in the thread that BabyPeach is pretty much acting like Destiny, if Destiny had 30 less IQ points.

I very much doubt that Pxie, Stasia, or any of Tiny's other whores, consented to their videos being sent to an underaged, groyper, who Destiny was sexting with regarding the most degenerate acts that you can think of, between him trauma dumping his failed relationship with Lauren Southern to her.
So again, that's not real consent.

Even if this Solo guy struck a deal with Tiny, in which Tiny will pay him to come out and say all of the texts he has posted are fake, and the video is the most convincing AI deepfake that you can create with current age technology. The nigga has done in two weeks more damage to Tiny than anyone else in the thread.
People in here, and Spicy Chat, like to give me props for my posting over the past couple years (which I do appreciate the people who've continued to defend me over the years) but people in both communities are very self contained. I've (somehow) over the years managed to brainwash the majority of the two communities, either directly or indirectly, through my posts in to believing the theories and arguments that I make, however, we've now managed to obtain pretty much undeniable truth and proof of the things we've argued. Which we should genuinely be grateful in a way.

If you had asked me a month ago I would have told you that NONE of the things that we theorize in here were ever going to be confirmed 100%, one month later and we've made a 180.

Tom getting in on the joke
Covering and sweeping for his parasocial internet father.
Can any of you post which is Tom's account in this? I don't really remember, I want to personally call him a cuck.

Hey maybe I should add Tom to the potential doxxing list.
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Speaking of. I don't know if what she's saying is true, that her current "dox" is incorrect. But I would be up to the challenge.

I gotta be honest, I feel real bad for Nathan. I think being shown a video of your dad sucking dick is literally the worst thing possible.
It's genuinely the worst possible scenario. I'm in the kid's discord and have followed his twitter accounts ( his other one got banned about a month ago).
The kid genuinely didn't even know that his dad was bi a month ago, can you imagine that? he was getting harassed and arguing with groypers on twitter about his dad being straight, to which groypers responded by sending him clips of Tiny admitting to sucking dick and sleeping with men.

Imagine the situation he's in. To have a deadbeat father, who after years of neglect becomes a "Discord dad", and most of the information that you will ever get about him will be through stream (Destiny used to tell Melina, his own wife, that if she wanted to keep up with his life she should watch his streams and stop asking him about it).
And in such a short timespan learning that your dad is a fag, that he's an unironic gooner, that he has an actual cuckold fetish, and that he's an ebebophile who sexts with (and likely sleeps with) underaged fans.

I couldn't even fathom having that man as a father, it's beyond fucked.

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CounterPoints' (Connor's) wife posted this a few days ago. And she's absolutely right, the kid unironically needs therapy. And it's worse than she thinks, not only is he on twitter defending his father after having watched the videos of him sucking cock, he also reads this thread, or at least people send him certain stuff.
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If none of the women involved come forth and talk about it then why should anybody give a fuck. Pxie can speak out if she wants to
My brother in christ, Gumbo. RoseIsCumming was underaged, and Destiny was sexting her, sending her sextapes and she was sending him what is essentially child porn to him, which he 100% has sent to other people and still has in his harddrive btw.
I've said it before, I like you being in the thread because you are more charitable to Tiny than people in here, because you are a fan of his, but at a certain point you have to recognize when its time to ghost and ignore topics in the thread and others when you should sweep for him.

Defending Tiny regarding anything that has to do with sexting this RoseisCumming girl, including sending those Pxie videos to her, is deranged and isn't a topic you want to defend / hill to die on.

*Edit:
Destiny has mentioned multiple times in the past when he had threesomes with Melina, since we now know the blonde girl in the threesome video is indeed Melina, we can probably match Melina's hair colour (she often switched haircolours a lot, so it's probably, genuinely, a reliable way to determine time period), and previous statements of Tiny in the past + vacations that he took, to try to find out which girl she is, or at least which state/city she's from, if the video isn't from some sort of Twitchcon.
 
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I'm speechless, he must've probably thought it's a baller move[: “Hey] girl my previous bitch looked like this so you better put in a lot of effort if you want this ride"[.]
Emphasis and edits for clarity are my own.
You seem to have insight into Destiny or dudes like him. Do you really think that’s it? That his obsession with filming, letting others know the camera is on, wanting to know when the camera starts, etc… that it’s some sort of weird status symbol? “Yeah, I fucked a hot, skinny, Swedish woman. You better be really cool / attractive because I scored with her.” Because, if so, that is astoundingly pathetic.
Sex is a big deal when you’re a teenager or early twenty something. It’s a big deal because it’s novel and strange within one’s peer group. As you age, sex, like driving a car or going to post-secondary education, just becomes a Thing People Do. Even if one is a virgin, unable or unwilling to drive, or someone who got their trades ticket and never looked back… it doesn’t matter. Your individual experience is irrelevant because within your peer group this experience is common enough that one does not need direct experience to have a cultural understanding of it. By the time you’re 30, even if you’ve never scored, there’s an understanding that bragging to one’s friends about having sex is a bit gauché.

That’s why I find “sex nerds” like Destiny (and Keffals, and Elliot Fong Jones, and Chris, and polyamorous couples, and Nick Rekeita, and…) so cringe-inducing. It’s like, dude, this is something that literally 99% of people have done. No one cares. This isn’t a big deal. Sex is a big deal on an interpersonal level, but in terms of relevance to one’s peers? Nothing. And the fact you’re talking about it is weird. No mature adult thinks that celibate monks or nuns or whatever are “losers”, because they’re definitionally not teenagers. They’re not impressed by the fact that you got to third base, an adult is impressed when you have a successful long term relationship with another person.

It’s just so stunted and juvenile. What’s next for Destiny? Videos of him popping a sick wheelie? Or taking a massive bong rip while Zepp plays? That’s so dope, man. The drug use is another thing that is exciting to adolescents, but banal to adults, even those with an abundance or dearth of personal experience. I think most people here can see the connections between the “sex nerd” thing, consoomers, being a junkie, etc. I think it’s less about one’s propensity to make these sorts of mistakes, and whether or not one confabulates reasons to be proud of them.

There’s other stuff. Like a grown man attempting to display status by bragging about proximity to his wife. Like, does he have no status of his own? Is his only reference the woman he married? Is his mom also a possible citation? And the status his wife has? Sex appeal. At least when Lil Ben Shapino talks about his wife, it’s to reference her having a medical doctorate. Again, by the time you’re Destiny’s age (ten years ago), having access to hot people stops being novel and exciting. Okay, she’s hot. So what? Is she some Belarussian mail-order bride with no English and few options? This doesn’t project the “cool” vibe he’s going for. It projects shallowness and sex-pattery.

And, of course, the logical extension of “you have a hot wife” is “then why are you trying to fuck me” or “why are you single”. That is, anyone seeing his ex-wife’s tits won’t be thinking “wow this guy is so out of my league”. They’ll be thinking, “I bet it was bullshit like spreading nudes that made her dump you”. Holding up an image of a girl you fucked is cool for teenaged boys. Adult men will ask, “okay… where is your wife now?”

Does he not ask these questions? If he does, then why does he do this? Does he think that he’s some 200IQ genius and no one else will have the cognition to apply, like, object permanence to his wife? Maybe I’m totally off the mark, but your comment got my noggin’ a’ joggin’.

lol father of the year!
Common Ralphamale victory.

Honestly I wonder what would happen to kiwi farms if a Hassan Abi video got leaked
What I want is for the sex trafficked women that Hassan fucked in that German brothel to come forward and discuss what a scummy roach he is. And then the Candyman pulls up.

Anyway, thread tax. Here’s another silly-willy edit:
Merry jingly, everyone!
IMG_3026.jpegIMG_3027.jpeg
A more classic googly eye variation.
IMG_3028.jpegIMG_3029.jpeg
 
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Got any evidence of said committed crimes? I agree that if he did spread those videos without consent that he should get fucked but we don't have any confirmation of that yet.
Pretty sure that if what Solo is saying is true, he sexted and had an online sexual relationship with a minor, and likely redistributed child porn through discord, as if he was sending this girl sextapes of other girls he also almost certainly asked for her permission to send her own videos to other girls, probably Melina, as Melina was into that cuckolding thing.

Destiny does this thing, in which he makes his whores become friends with each other, if he's trying to have a threesome or simply wants to sext in group. He seemed to be relatively close to this girl for a while, even if it wasn't for that long. He almost certainly put her in contact with some of his other whores.

I've said it before. But along with serving as a drama containment server, Destiny uses jstlk's discord as a way to have his whores in one place and become friends with his footsoldiers, even date them, and to all know each other.

Related, but unrelated to Gumbo, ranting.

Destiny rarely throws completely away the "open relationship" mask. But when he's talking with a poly person (like Aella), and you hear the arguments that he makes, and what he thinks of monogamy, you can understand what he genuinely thinks.
In Destiny's ideal world everyone would be full poly, forming sexual and emotional relationships with anyone they want. Keep in mind that Destiny genuinely thinks that the age of consent should be lower, even if he doesn't directly ask for it, both in conversations with Turkey Tom and Aella he has given the same example, if I'm not misremembering, that if a "man" and a "woman" enter a dark room or abandoned place, and they have "consensual" sex, they both go their ways seperately and never see each other or know anything about each other, but the "woman" was actually underaged (15-17) and the man was 30+ year old, was any harm actually done? he argues that no there wasn't, as age is only a social construct and there's nothing inherently wrong with a TEEN having sex with a full grown adult.

In separate conversations, I believe that with Brittany Simon and Aella (when Aella trauma dumped that when she was an escort she was raped), he has spoken about how rape PTSD, or trauma, is largely or entirely socially constructed. Don't know if he has used this exact argument, but let's say a woman is completely separated from society, knows no human norms or anything, if she were to be "raped" as in a man had sex with her without her consent, and she presented no trauma or PTSD, Destiny argues that the REAL person who is traumatizing them is the third party, that tells her what ACTUALLY happened, and how she should feel about it.
He explained all that in response to Aella telling him that after she was raped, although it was unpleasant she didn't really felt trauma over the situation, only after she told people about it and they told her that it was rape and how she should feel about it did it start affecting her more heavily.
Aella actually used a tribe example if I'm not misremembering, in which when boys come of age they basically have to suck the tip of the penis of the tribe elders, or something like that, but that none of them show any trauma or PTSD about it even tho they are underaged, which is how Aella justifies too that molestation/rape PTSD isn't "real real".
Destiny went into an argument with Brittany Simon regarding this same topic, which is what ultimately burned their bridge. But ultimately, although Tiny believes that what the people with trauma feel, is a "real" sensation, he thinks it's society who caused it to them, not the action/event itself.

If you join together all of these ideas, what Destiny very rarely openly argues with, but that by his own statements he personally believes, a dream society is one in which everyone is poly, as jealousy is a bad thing and the only reason why "monoganoids" are against poly is because of insecurities, and in this societies full grown adults are capable and should have sex with 15-17 year old teens, likely even younger, as molestation/rape trauma isn't really "real".

Destiny will never admit publicly that's his position tho, for obvious reasons, it's genuine career suicide.
I could probably one day put together all the clips of him arguing all of these things, if needed.

Destiny sharing entire chat-logs with some 19 year old i
17 year old* if Solo (the leaker) is to be believed.
 
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I think it's a shame that the Nice Guy discourse died out ten-ish years ago. The older I get the more I see value in the term, even if the pop-feminist blogs that talked about it at the time were too heavy-handed with it.
The problem with Nice Guy/Gal rhetoric is that there are plenty of normal circumstances where the line between friendship and romance gets blurry. What if you become friends with someone, then come to have feelings for them later? What if you have a crush on someone, but think they're so wonderful that just being friends is enough?

Destiny, on the other hand, seems to have purely transactional relationships. He would never associate with a woman he isn't interested with sexually or financially. He does fit what the Nice Guy criticism was aiming at.
 
Any proof it's really from him? Who were the dms to?

Also I'd point out that date is 2 days after her video about her divorce dropped, so good chance if it was the ex he's exaggerating for revenge. Stuff he leaked to rollo had things like an actual baby with destiny and sleeping with Hunter Avellone, which even rollo didn't believe.

Aaron Mccready (I spelled his last name wrong the first time) is an unreliable narrator, the same applies to Rollo, so you're correct about not taking what they say at face value. However, in a land of unreliable narrators, Occam's razor is king.

Let us go over what we know...

1. We know that Lauren experienced a traumatic sexual assault situation via the Dm leaks.

destiny-dm.webp


2. We know that Caolan Robertson (someone who worked with LS on her docs) alleged that Andrew Tate was a rapist and that he showed him incriminating material while he was at his cam studio. He claims that during his trip to Romania to visit Tate, Tate had raped someone "personally close" to him.
tate-sa.jpg

tate-sa2.jpg


3. Tommy made a video response on his Rumble channel, giving a different perspective on what happened and alleging that Caolan was lying. In it, he says that he, Caolan, and an unnamed woman visited Tate and that, while both testimonies assert that they saw his webcam studio, Tommy says that there was nothing illegal in the contents of what was shown to them. He also alleges that this unnamed woman was flirting and slept with Tate while they were there, and denies that she was raped.

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3. In 2018, shortly after this event took place, Lauren did an interview with Stefan Molyneux talking about Tommy's arrest in the UK over an unrelated incident. In it, she talks about a "media project" that she was going to work with Tommy on. The project was still yet to be made into anything before Tommy was arrested and Southern was banned from the UK, so it inevitably went nowhere. Before this though, they still managed to connect with prominent people and producers over a shared interest in the project, and Southern even underlines how many eyes were on it that she throws in the possibility that the production being halted by the UK government was not incidental.




This partially lines up with what her husband says here (the only difference being that he doesn't say specifically "media project").

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4. I choose to believe the herpes thing because it's funny.

5. Ok ok, no it's not funny if this actually happened to her, but considering that Destiny thought it was appropriate to make fun of that maga-tard firefighter, I don't see how he can object to people making some slightly cruel jokes at his queen's expense - isn't his argument for why he did it with the maga tard firefighter that it was stupid of him to be at a trump rally in the first place? Maybe your favorite cum sock shouldn't have been hanging around all these redpill people like a dumb bitch and this wouldn't have happened @Destiny ;)
 

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In separate conversations, I believe that with Brittany Simon and Aella (when Aella trauma dumped that when she was an escort she was raped), he has spoken about how rape PTSD, or trauma, is largely or entirely socially constructed. Don't know if he has used this exact argument, but let's say a woman is completely separated from society, knows no human norms or anything, if she were to be "raped" as in a man had sex with her without her consent, and she presented no trauma or PTSD, Destiny argues that the REAL person who is traumatizing them is the third party, that tells her what ACTUALLY happened, and how she should feel about it.
I think it could be argued (I read about it several years ago), that it could prolonge your PTSD or make it harder to recover. But to argue there would be not trauma without it is ridiculous. Your brain shut off on his own to protect you. People have PTSD from being assaulted non sexually too, yet there is not the same social stigma / pressure about it.
 
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