Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

[Goodbye Horses]

Sherlock pulling shit out nowhere in a way that the audience literally can’t predict is actually pretty accurate to the novels. The idea that the reader should be able to figure out the mystery is definitely a post Doyle invention.

Not really, Doyle took a lot of flack from his peers about Holmes pulling bullshit facts out of his ass to solve nonsense mysteries.

 

[Berrakh]

Doyle's books at least walked you through how you could have done or considered what he did. Usually.
He didn't have brain magic. And didn't consider his disinterest in explaining things to be a point of pride like Moffat.

Double-posting to share a story idea with a lot of potential

Misery except the author is planning some terrible ending/subversion so Annie Wilkes is the hero.

Annie reads the transcript, expecting her favorite character to be martyred because of how much they were built up, instead to find that the writer has them turn evil just so the more fan favorite characters can justifiably kill them. What else?

 

[JohnDoe]

Doyle's books at least walked you through how you could have done or considered what he did. Usually.
He didn't have brain magic. And didn't consider his disinterest in explaining things to be a point of pride like Moffat.

Having recently re-read a lot of Holmes stories, this is typically the case. He will off handedly talk about footprints and how he can calculate heights from the strides and stuff like that, and when he doesn't it reads more like he just takes it for granted that everyone else sees the same things he does. It's less arrogant and more just....autistically absent minded, I suppose.

He's kind of an off-putting weirdo but Doyle never writes him as an actual, deliberate asshole.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

That's really a big problem. You see this a lot with Western 'adult' cartoons. Its like they're absolutely PETRIFIED of being serious. Like "HAHAHA OH MY LOOK AT US, WE'RE A CARTOON LOLOLOLOLOL." Its complete insecurity that they can't handle it. Meanwhile anime has rape, gore, violence and ridiculous concepts that take themselves stone cold serious that it works in ways the West can't imagine.

The thing is the sort of sardonic dialogue works occasionally in super hero movies (only certain ones) because there are some scenarios that are just going to be absurd, and there's nothing wrong with them acknowledging it, especially if its their first go around.

Typically the smart and quippy stuff is a sign of insecurity in the material or a feeling that they're 'better' than the material itself. There's a big difference between a Joss Wheadon's Avengers and a James Gunn Guardians of the Galaxy. Both can be 'quippy', but in Guardians in feels in place while in Avengers, a lot of it is out of place. For some characters it works, for others it doesn't. The problem with Wheadon is its completely over used and detracts from the scenario.

The too-clever shit gets REALLY grating a lot of the time because it diffuses tension from the scene. It can also be an effective device to indicate to the audience shit is real. When in Civil War, Iron Man isn't making quips or being clever you know things are heavy. Like Wheadon would have him making stupid comments just after he found out his parents were murdered. Iron Man is extremely serious in that movie and it does help set the tone.

So while the quippyness can get annoying, it can also be used as a good device when its taken away. The key is to have that dynamic contrast and make it work for you. It also works in your favor as well, where you can make something seem not so 'serious' and then just do a 180 and stun the audience by having a civvie having his head blown off because someone was too busy being a smart ass (this would count as a subversion, and its an easy one to do, especially at the beginning of the film to establish tone and mood). It can ground your story, emphasize the seriousness of scenes and in other cases add sprinkles of levity to an otherwise dark story.

But in general, thanks to Wheadon, they've become EXTREMELY overused, to some films and features where they feel a need to have a flippant remark every other scene. In general, if this occurs it is because of insecurity in the strength of the material, being derisive of the genre, medium or subject matter or trying to imitate other, more successful films.

Well, Mamet came from the theater, which is why his dialogue is so fucking amazing. Which is why a lot of his movies have very few sets, because he is a theatre director and playwright by heart. I fucking love Mamet. Sorkin is usually pretty good too, though I think Sorkin is better when its a film or a shorter series (like 8 or 10 episodes) because he seems to get tired and worn out on longer shows and can get a tad repetitive.

I can't criticize this too much, because the alternative is just shot-reverse shot or just trying to get creative so its not just a static of two people talking which can get boring. And most people walk and talk so I don't find a problem with it.

The reason so many adult animated cartoons in America seem afraid of being serious is due to America associating animation with kids stuff. There are those that would be serious but when animation is seen as a medium by Americans rather than stuff for children, that content can improve.

Also Whedon has definitely contributed to the smarmy dialogue seen nowadays as many pretentious nerds considered him a genius to emulate. People like Movieblob and Dobson act the way they do because they are influenced by Whedon’s writing and think that’s how cool people speak which is why so many of these losers try to be quippy or insert that shit into new content

 

[AnOminous]

Also Whedon has definitely contributed to the smarmy dialogue seen nowadays as many pretentious nerds considered him a genius to emulate.

I think Whedon is overly blamed for this trend when it is mainly his imitators who were the worst offenders.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I think Whedon is overly blamed for this trend when it is mainly his imitators who were the worst offenders.

Of course especially when his imitators are widespread and when critics consider Whedon a genius. Personally I think this trend will day sometime especially with how Whedon is exposed for being a creep and more and more people are getting sick of quips.

 

[Secret Asshole]

The reason so many adult animated cartoons in America seem afraid of being serious is due to America associating animation with kids stuff. There are those that would be serious but when animation is seen as a medium by Americans rather than stuff for children, that content can improve.

Also Whedon has definitely contributed to the smarmy dialogue seen nowadays as many pretentious nerds considered him a genius to emulate. People like Movieblob and Dobson act the way they do because they are influenced by Whedon’s writing and think that’s how cool people speak which is why so many of these losers try to be quippy or insert that shit into new content

It did stem from the problem early on that Feigie and the like were really unsure of how the movie-going public would take these franchises seriously. So they got Whedon on board to write quippy dialogue. It wasn't really heavy at first. Tony was more of a devil-may care type deal, but they really could of used that to their advantage in that he is just putting on a front to hide the immense pain of hi parent's murders and that he acted like a prick to them before he died, so there's an in character reason for that quippy dialogue, he's just hiding it to mask his pain. And when it no longer works he self-medicates with booze.

But Marvel movies don't really get that much depth to them, so eventually when the public accepts these ridiculous premises, these out of context and out of character quips still remain. A lot of times they're used to basically take a breather from the action, but all they serve to do is deflate tension.

The exceptions are Winter Soldier and Civil war where they're used sparingly and few and far between because the situation is emotionally resonant. And frankly, those might be the best Marvel movies because they finally focus on the ethics of a bunch of untrained lunatics with Godlike powers blasting away and what the government response would be. And since Tony has a very personal stake, he's a lot less quippy about it and serious for the first time in a long time,

I think its going to take groundbreaking stuff for the whole 'shame' of it to be removed. Animation in Japan has a long and storied history, telling detailed, visually beautiful stories that surpass anything the West was doing. Like Akira vs. a Disney film. Not to knock on Disney, but Akira is a work of art. It is breathtaking. Even if you don't understand the story, the visuals, the music, the animation all flow together. There's a reason its a classic.

The Disney songs just hold nothing for me, and while they maybe classics, they simply don't compete with Akira.

Or my all time favorite classic anime, Ghost in the Shell, which was the first anime I was exposed to:

So, what you really have are two divergent ideas. You have Disney movies, which are all for children, but contain little hints for adults to enjoy, and then you have anime which is exclusively for adults and contain complex adult themes.

So Japan hasn't really had a problem with it, but America has struggled because historically the animation industry has been exclusively for children. So there is still this disconnect decades upon decades later, where the cultural divide is still extremely strong and it is almost impossible to find Western Anime without quips or witticisims that take you out of the show. Castlevania suffered for this a lot, even if it did take the Japanese style.

So really, the West does not have a history of adult animation at all. It is very set in its ways and fully believes that they're for children. Same with comics and videogames. These are the attitudes where violence against videogames comes in, nudity, sexuality and everything we hear about, because historically we have little basis for it in our culture where Japan has no problem and has been doing it for decades.

There's also much bigger female integration of mangaka and artists than compared to the American comics industry, for touting how diverse it is. So you not only have this barrier where people are terrified to take something like this seriously, you don't really have precedent for it. The closest I can think of is the Batman Animated Series, which was still largely for kids, but didn't have that tongue in cheek aspect and tried to be complex and dark. But that wasn't enough to alter the paradigm.

Most recently everything has been moving backwards in the West, where 'adult cartoons' are typically poorly drawn comedy fests with awful jokes. There are very little attempts besides some on Netflix (That Zeus show, the black samurai one, DotA, Castlevania) that are trying to adopt the anime style and the seriousness of it and transfer it into the West, with varying degrees of success. Its still no competition for manga and anime.

Truthfully, I see it very difficult for the West to even attempt Japan's style and thought process, because the cultural divide is so big. I mean you have SJWs and Comic Pros attacking manga because they're basically getting completely outsold by single manga series. I would bet money sales of Berserk has stomped all of Marvel and DC combined right now, even though Demon Slayer and Jutisju Kaisen are super hot right now.

And that's honestly trouble for American comics and shows, because Berserk is NOTHING like American media. And Miura's art is simply breathtaking as you can see his evolution.

So I feel like animation in the West is on a decline. Slower than comics, but unless it attempts to get serious without getting embarassed, I don't really see it ever catching on.

 

[God of Nothing]

It did stem from the problem early on that Feigie and the like were really unsure of how the movie-going public would take these franchises seriously. So they got Whedon on board to write quippy dialogue. It wasn't really heavy at first. Tony was more of a devil-may care type deal, but they really could of used that to their advantage in that he is just putting on a front to hide the immense pain of hi parent's murders and that he acted like a prick to them before he died, so there's an in character reason for that quippy dialogue, he's just hiding it to mask his pain. And when it no longer works he self-medicates with booze.

But Marvel movies don't really get that much depth to them, so eventually when the public accepts these ridiculous premises, these out of context and out of character quips still remain. A lot of times they're used to basically take a breather from the action, but all they serve to do is deflate tension.

The exceptions are Winter Soldier and Civil war where they're used sparingly and few and far between because the situation is emotionally resonant. And frankly, those might be the best Marvel movies because they finally focus on the ethics of a bunch of untrained lunatics with Godlike powers blasting away and what the government response would be. And since Tony has a very personal stake, he's a lot less quippy about it and serious for the first time in a long time,

I think its going to take groundbreaking stuff for the whole 'shame' of it to be removed. Animation in Japan has a long and storied history, telling detailed, visually beautiful stories that surpass anything the West was doing. Like Akira vs. a Disney film. Not to knock on Disney, but Akira is a work of art. It is breathtaking. Even if you don't understand the story, the visuals, the music, the animation all flow together. There's a reason its a classic.

The Disney songs just hold nothing for me, and while they maybe classics, they simply don't compete with Akira.

Or my all time favorite classic anime, Ghost in the Shell, which was the first anime I was exposed to:

So, what you really have are two divergent ideas. You have Disney movies, which are all for children, but contain little hints for adults to enjoy, and then you have anime which is exclusively for adults and contain complex adult themes.

So Japan hasn't really had a problem with it, but America has struggled because historically the animation industry has been exclusively for children. So there is still this disconnect decades upon decades later, where the cultural divide is still extremely strong and it is almost impossible to find Western Anime without quips or witticisims that take you out of the show. Castlevania suffered for this a lot, even if it did take the Japanese style.

So really, the West does not have a history of adult animation at all. It is very set in its ways and fully believes that they're for children. Same with comics and videogames. These are the attitudes where violence against videogames comes in, nudity, sexuality and everything we hear about, because historically we have little basis for it in our culture where Japan has no problem and has been doing it for decades.

There's also much bigger female integration of mangaka and artists than compared to the American comics industry, for touting how diverse it is. So you not only have this barrier where people are terrified to take something like this seriously, you don't really have precedent for it. The closest I can think of is the Batman Animated Series, which was still largely for kids, but didn't have that tongue in cheek aspect and tried to be complex and dark. But that wasn't enough to alter the paradigm.

Most recently everything has been moving backwards in the West, where 'adult cartoons' are typically poorly drawn comedy fests with awful jokes. There are very little attempts besides some on Netflix (That Zeus show, the black samurai one, DotA, Castlevania) that are trying to adopt the anime style and the seriousness of it and transfer it into the West, with varying degrees of success. Its still no competition for manga and anime.

Truthfully, I see it very difficult for the West to even attempt Japan's style and thought process, because the cultural divide is so big. I mean you have SJWs and Comic Pros attacking manga because they're basically getting completely outsold by single manga series. I would bet money sales of Berserk has stomped all of Marvel and DC combined right now, even though Demon Slayer and Jutisju Kaisen are super hot right now.

And that's honestly trouble for American comics and shows, because Berserk is NOTHING like American media. And Miura's art is simply breathtaking as you can see his evolution.

So I feel like animation in the West is on a decline. Slower than comics, but unless it attempts to get serious without getting embarassed, I don't really see it ever catching on.

I have faith in Invincible. It won't be immediate, but it'll likely spark interest towards steering MA animation up here.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

The Disney songs just hold nothing for me, and while they maybe classics, they simply don't compete with Akira.

Why are you comparing Disney movies for children with Akira? Apples & Oranges.

 

[Secret Asshole]

Why are you comparing Disney movies for children with Akira? Apples & Oranges.

I mean, it is a matter of preference. But you are right, that's what I'm getting at. The West went one way, the East went another. Both impacted animation culturally and where we were going. Disney cemented animation was for children.

 

[AnOminous]

I mean, it is a matter of preference. But you are right, that's what I'm getting at. The West went one way, the East went another. Both impacted animation culturally and where we were going. Disney cemented animation was for children.

Yeah, well, how do you think Spongebob got his house? JIHAD!

 

[Berrakh]

I have faith in Invincible. It won't be immediate, but it'll likely spark interest towards steering MA animation up here.

I am not. I liked Invincible a lot but I feel like for animation to become adult it has to upset and spurn at least some of its fans. The ones who want animation to be adult but only in very shallow ways (blood). But in the current climate that will mean transsexual characters, aborting plotlines that are too problematic (Last Jedi clearly hated how the force was genetic for example), and other backward facing attempts at maturing the genre.

 

[God of Nothing]

I am not. I liked Invincible a lot but I feel like for animation to become adult it has to upset and spurn at least some of its fans. The ones who want animation to be adult but only in very shallow ways (blood). But in the current climate that will mean transsexual characters, aborting plotlines that are too problematic (Last Jedi clearly hated how the force was genetic for example), and other backward facing attempts at maturing the genre.

Hahaha! If it reaches the latter half of the comic, shit will get too adult real fast. A lot of people didn't like when it did. A morally ambiguous dad was just the start.

 

[Berrakh]

Hahaha! If it reaches the latter half of the comic, shit will get too adult real fast. A lot of people didn't like when it did. A morally ambiguous dad was just the start.

Well then it's on the fans. But I was talking about the industry overall post-Invincible.
Sopranos and Breaking Bad didn't make Game of Thrones end properly, etc

 

[Jaimas]

The interesting thing about subversion is that it used to work when done by competent people and part of the narrative itself. I've gone over it a few times in the past but the biggest reason this shit keeps happening is that due to a race to the bottom in the writing field (good writers keep being hedged out in favor of ideologues), there's now a crushing shortage of people who can actually write worth a damn.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Why are you comparing Disney movies for children with Akira? Apples & Oranges.

Considering lion king just straigth up stole kimba the white lion story, sometimes it's apples and apples to compare disney with anime.

 

[gata]

Considering lion king just straigth up stole kimba the white lion story, sometimes it's apples and apples to compare disney with anime.

I've heard of this narrative but I didn't look into it that much, how much did they copy/stole? Although Isn't the plot of the Lion King basically Shakespeare's Hamlet though? unless you meant visual elements?

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Considering lion king just straigth up stole kimba the white lion story, sometimes it's apples and apples to compare disney with anime.

I've heard of this narrative but I didn't look into it that much, how much did they copy/stole? Although Isn't the plot of the Lion King basically Shakespeare's Hamlet though? unless you meant visual elements?

Hate to be that guy but Lion King didn't take much from Kimba. This autist literally watched all Kimba content to find comparisons

If a two hour video is not worth your time, the too long didn't watch version is that basically the only things Lion King and Kimba have in common is that they are about royal lions, take place in Africa, and many animals are used in both but that's because those animals are common in Africa.

Really Lion King takes more from Shakespeare while Kimba is more of it's own brand of weirdness with weird episodes such as Elephants being genocided en-masse for being dicks, constant use of Kimba's father's corpse as a disguise, and a sadomasochist warthog. The themes are very different as well, and most of these comparisons came from lots of misinformation.

But back on topic, I find it really annoying how Disney nowadays tries to be subversive by constantly making fun of tropes they have done before as though they are ashamed of their old movies. It feels pretty disrespectful and makes Disney feel insecure about it's past.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I've heard of this narrative but I didn't look into it that much, how much did they copy/stole? Although Isn't the plot of the Lion King basically Shakespeare's Hamlet though? unless you meant visual elements?

Copied a lot. Kimba = Simba. Dead parents are stars in the sky that talk. Rafiki/den'l the babboon. The character of scar/claw. The actors doing the voices thought they were doing an homage, but were then surprised disney claimed it as the first disney original story.

It's still obvious theft. All art is theft, maybe, but when you deny it and it's this obvious, it's more egregious.

There are even old Disney memo's where they call him Kimba, not Simba.

Subverting expectations is just another symptom of the disease that's been poisoning popular culture for years now, every other series or film or comic or whatever can't be earnest or serious, really, it all has to be "smart" and quippy and sarcastic to show off how "clever" the screenwriters and the directors are.

It's just an expression of the inclinations of the people that write it. Subverting expectations is becoming a tired meme/trope because entertainment industry is run by people that love to subvert. I wonder what people that are.

After all, game thrones writer and the showrunners each belonged to that group. Martin's work itself is overrated. One of his big criticisms of Tolkien was that when Gandalf died he should have stayed dead. Okay mr let's bring catelyn stark and jon snow back from the dead.
Another was that Tolkien never went into Aragorns tax policy.
But looking back on game of thrones, the whole bank/debt or social upheaval and sparrows didn't play any meaningful role in the overarching story. It was Martin's Tom Bombadil in a sense. Additions that were out of tune with the overall work.

Mostly people overlook what makes story work. To get a story to work people need to get invested and people get invested by nothing better than an enticing mystery. This is why murder mysteries are a quintessential story: you know the stakes are high and you're promised a step by step unvealing of mystery. It's how game of thrones begins, with the death of jon arryn.

But murder mysteries have only the machinery to get people invested. To have people come back to a story you need to have eternal truths or have an archetypical story that resonates with our humanity.

Game of thrones fucked it up by fawning too much over dany. They didn't really manage to play with her flaws, which was also warped by both the actor's and audience infatuation with the girl power. When she arrived at the steps of Qarth for example, she is unreasonably haughty. They are also wrong to take her in; doing so destabilizes them and costs them everything. Besides dothraki stealing them blind before the coup, she also ends up taking their ships and wealth as her just reward. If things like this were examined a little differently and came back to haunt her, then her story of a mad queen could have worked.

Another problem is that her rage is too justified in most cases for her fatal flaw being an unjustified one. Eddard's arc works as a subversion, as there is something very sensible about an honest man drowning in a pit of vipers.

Dany's arc doesn't because in order to subvert expectations she has to go against her establishrd character. And when people have to go against their character to serve the story, then you know you are destroying any repeat viewing of the work.

We may not know why iago poisons othello's thoughts, but at least he's consistent in doing so.

And you may not know why all movies and series seem to be about subverting expectations but at least when you look at the people that write them, an eternal story emerges.

Well, Mamet came from the theater, which is why his dialogue is so fucking amazing.

You've reversed cause and effect. Mamet made interesting theatre in part of his family's fun with dialogue. Both his movies and theatre had this kind of labyranthine dialogue that was honed over the years by the linguistic games his family played on daily basis.

His book on acting (true and false) has numerous answers that this thread asks about the nature of storytelling and the failure of soaking everything in irony.

Whedon is just a modern incarnation taking irony to its modern conclusion, but the problem was already well identified by david foster wallace.

Really Lion King takes more from Shakespeare while Kimba is more of it's own brand of weirdness with weird episodes such as Elephants being genocided en-masse for being dicks, constant use of Kimba's father's corpse as a disguise, and a sadomasochist warthog. The themes are very different as well, and most of these comparisons came from lots of misinformation.

Spoiler: compilation of disney is full of bs

Disney claims that they had no knowledge of kimba until they did press tour in japan. This is BS.

1. Early disney concept art had simba as a white lion:



2. Roy Disney referred to Simba as Kimba in a memo

3. Roger Ales worked for a year in Tokyo animation studios at the height of kimba popularity where he was in everyday commercials as mascot

4. T wo of the lead animators on the film admitted to familiarity with Kimba, and Fred Ladd (who imported Kimba to the US) alleged at least one other animator was a known Kimba superfan, and there were Kimba masks in the Disney studio.

5. Matthew Broderick's statement that he always thought he was signed on to do a Kimba remake of the show he knew as a kid

6. A lot of shots and scene framings were the same:

I could go on, but I'm satisfied.

One reason people do get confused is that the white lion movie (not the series) came out AFTER lion king and stole things back, making some comparisons unfair.

But that doesn't change that lion king was heavily inspired by Kimba.

It took more from kimba than hamlet. There's only two plot points that it takes from hamlet, the plotting murderous uncle and the ghost of the father asking for revenge. It's much less than the book full of both visual, name and character elements taken from kimba.
No wait the ghost doesn't ask for revenge like hamlet, it asks him to become king, just like in kimba.


As I said, they even referred to him as kimba in some of their older memo's.

The whole kimba/simba thing is a perfect example why you don't deserve anything better than derivative subversion of expectations in your pop tv shows. First someone shows the numerous examples of a loved classic, the lion king. Expectations Subverted tm! They stole it! Then someone makes a video of why it wasn't stolen at all because there is a lot of story in Kimba to work with and that there are some errors in the comparison. Expectations Subverted tm! People lied that it was stolen!

But in the end it's pretty simple.

1. Disney claimed it was a complete original
2. They even called simba kimba in their memo's
3. They took no less than 4 characters from kimba, numerous scenes, backdrops and didn't even change scar/claw's left eye scar.

You should love me subverting your expectations again. But you don't because it conflicts with the original theme, of lion king being an amazing piece of work that would stand the test of time and you can't admit to it not being an original work.

Comparisons to shakespeare are interesting too because most of shakespeares plays were stolen too. Yes, he improved on the original work, like Disney did. Like Kubrick did with his movies. But don't be a faggot and pretend they invented the whole story (and in case of lion king, also visual elements) themselves. Just pay homage the way kimba's creator paid homage and said he was inspired by Disney's bambi.

 

[Berrakh]

The comparisons commonly used to claim Lion King stole from Kimba are from a Kimba movie made AFTER Lion King.
And Simba is swahili for Lion.
Kimba's creators' own family doesn't think the Lion King stole from Kimba, a localizer dude is behind the controversy.
Just no.

ANYWAY

The interesting thing about subversion is that it used to work when done by competent people and part of the narrative itself. I've gone over it a few times in the past but the biggest reason this shit keeps happening is that due to a race to the bottom in the writing field (good writers keep being hedged out in favor of ideologues), there's now a crushing shortage of people who can actually write worth a damn.

subversion works when you don't lose sight of the typical expectation, the thing being subverted. Otherwise the narrative just becomes unmoored.