Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

[Doctor of Autism]

There is one "subversion" I've seen from DC lately that I absolutely fucking hate and it's Superman becoming evil. The concept is a good idea but the issue is that DC overuses this concept because they have no idea what the fuck to do with Superman despite the fact Superman has a lot to work with in terms of being a great character (hell it's been done before in the DCAU) but modern DC just uses Superman to either be an edgelord or completely evil as a way to shock people. It's honestly more of a cliche nowadays.

 

[CreamyHerman’s]

There is one "subversion" I've seen from DC lately that I absolutely fucking hate and it's Superman becoming evil. The concept is a good idea but the issue is that DC overuses this concept because they have no idea what the fuck to do with Superman despite the fact Superman has a lot to work with in terms of being a great character (hell it's been done before in the DCAU) but modern DC just uses Superman to either be an edgelord or completely evil as a way to shock people. It's honestly more of a cliche nowadays.

I think the red steel Superman is a good idea of a ‘bad’ superman

 

[Mr. Zed da Robot Poon Fed]

I think the issue with subverting expectations for these people is that they are doing these sorts of deconstructions without understanding why people liked the original source material or had no clear concrete plan in mind. I think Johnson is a good example of this cause he didn't understand why people loved Empire Strikes Back on top of having no clear plan for his Star Wars movie so he went bananas with no one tardwrangling him properly.

I know this is a pretty late response, but subversion of this magnitude just doesn't work with Star Wars. That would mean having to change Star Wars entirely.

The big issue with TLOU2 is not so much that it's anticlimactic, it's that said subversion doesn't even tie in with its own emotional core.

This might be the best statement to why TLOU2 story doesn't work, imo.

I mentioned MGS2 because the whole game's story was about misinformation. The whole game was mismarketed back in the early 21st century. The realization that Raiden is the main character, on top of the Patriot AI conversation, play into that. There's nothing like that in TLOU 2.

 

[Übertroon]

I know this is a pretty late response, but subversion of this magnitude just doesn't work with Star Wars. That would mean having to change Star Wars entirely.

Kotor II did a good effort at it.
Firstly is subverted the expectation that winning the war of the previous game leads to peace and stability.
It subverted the idea that the Sith rely on vast empires and fleets, instead it's a shadow of itself, forced to work in the shadows and use subterfuge.
It subverted the idea of the force being a force for good, or that jedi are all powerful, instead you've got arguments presented for why the will of the force is something to loathe, and how weak the jedi are if their foes know how to exploit their weaknesses.

The thing is The Last Jedi doesn't work as a subversion as it's baggaged by the original trilogy rehash that is Force Awakens. And Rian Johnson mostly focused on subverting character expectations rather than lore and world building.

 

[AnOminous]

The thing is The Last Jedi doesn't work as a subversion as it's baggaged by the original trilogy rehash that is Force Awakens. And Rian Johnson mostly focused on subverting character expectations rather than lore and world building.

Calling what wokesters do to existing franchises is kind of a misnomer. If I order a filet mignon medium rare and instead get a plate of steaming turds, you haven't subverted my expectations. You've just served me a plate of steaming turds. You've ripped me off.

 

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

4) It doesn't seem like he's the best writer. Breaking Bad's writers room was fucking tight. And they had a lot of vision of what they wanted to do and say. So there's not really much room for movement there. Obviously if Johnson is provided with a script, he's a competent director.

This is basically why Ozymandias is so beloved. If nothing else, Johnson's got an eye for excellent visuals, which could also be seen with TLJ. The writer of that episode was Moira Walley-Beckett, who also wrote some of the best episodes of the series like Over and End Times.

I do think it's worth noting that they both collaborated on the rather controversial Fly, aka the episode where Walt and Jesse spend a whole episode trying to kill a fly. I personally loved that episode, but a lot of people hate it. So even with Breaking Bad Johnson can be a bit divisive.

 

[Berrakh]

There is one "subversion" I've seen from DC lately that I absolutely fucking hate and it's Superman becoming evil. The concept is a good idea but the issue is that DC overuses this concept because they have no idea what the fuck to do with Superman despite the fact Superman has a lot to work with in terms of being a great character (hell it's been done before in the DCAU) but modern DC just uses Superman to either be an edgelord or completely evil as a way to shock people. It's honestly more of a cliche nowadays.

And by doing this they ruin the wholesome ubiquity that he needs to be a symbol in the first place...which makes doing this no longer shocking.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

And by doing this they ruin the wholesome ubiquity that he needs to be a symbol in the first place...which makes doing this no longer shocking.

Yeah it just makes people think of him as a boring archetypical hero.

 

[Secret Asshole]

This is basically why Ozymandias is so beloved. If nothing else, Johnson's got an eye for excellent visuals, which could also be seen with TLJ. The writer of that episode was Moira Walley-Beckett, who also wrote some of the best episodes of the series like Over and End Times.

I do think it's worth noting that they both collaborated on the rather controversial Fly, aka the episode where Walt and Jesse spend a whole episode trying to kill a fly. I personally loved that episode, but a lot of people hate it. So even with Breaking Bad Johnson can be a bit divisive.

I enjoyed 'Fly' for its visuals and it story-telling abstraction. Its basically the one episode where Walt displays a hint of decency, but its soon lost. I think that's what's infuriating, he's a GOOD director, he just needs to be reigned in. He can't be super free. He's like one of those writers that needs an editor.

I don't think Johnson is cut out for anything that isn't original. Because he wants to go his own way with things and if he's boxed in it seems he gets super pissy, so he's a bad fit for franchises but fine for dramatic stuff like BB.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

I think that's also why the sequels suck. It still tries to surprise the viewers with "more stuff about this world" but the problem is, the information isnt new. By giving us nothing in the way of new information, they've given us no information at all.

The Animatrix was the right direction to take that entire story premise. Let a bunch of other people write fanfiction of it instead of focusing on Neo. The Bible isn't just the story of Adam and Eve or Moses, after all.

 

[Berrakh]

Has this show come up in this thread? The 19 second timestamp is intended.

It's a show I watched some of well after it's heyday and never finished because it felt too clever by half. My understanding is that it quadrupled down on subverting expectations as it went on. Its fandom seems to have tendrils in all online geek fandom as well, obsessing with background details and finery that could as easily be fluff as it could be substantial (and ultimately turns out to be fluff).
Which I always felt was a risky use of time; constructing elaborate theories out of the elements most likely to be disregarded, just to make sense of an otherwise inscrutable work. Doesn't sound fun.

 

[starborn427614]

The Animatrix was the right direction to take that entire story premise. Let a bunch of other people write fanfiction of it instead of focusing on Neo. The Bible isn't just the story of Adam and Eve or Moses, after all.

Right up there with the first movie and Path of Neo for me.

 

[Secret Asshole]

Has this show come up in this thread? The 19 second timestamp is intended.

It's a show I watched some of well after it's heyday and never finished because it felt too clever by half. My understanding is that it quadrupled down on subverting expectations as it went on. Its fandom seems to have tendrils in all online geek fandom as well, obsessing with background details and finery that could as easily be fluff as it could be substantial (and ultimately turns out to be fluff).
Which I always felt was a risky use of time; constructing elaborate theories out of the elements most likely to be disregarded, just to make sense of an otherwise inscrutable work. Doesn't sound fun.

Sherlock got REAL fucking annoying because it was utterly impossible to figure the mystery out. Like, there's absolutely no way to do it. Its not deduction, its just Sherlock being a psychic and shoving it in everyone's face. He's using his magical powers and conjuring the answer out of nowhere.

Its all pointless if you look at it and the entire point of a mystery show is to try and figure out the mystery along with the MC. If you can't do that what's the fucking point? His performance, much like Hugh Laurie's 'House', gets EXTREMELY fucking grating after you watch enough of it. Which is another show that basically employs "Pull shit out of nowhere" to conjure up answers.

I honestly just prefer the procedural 'Elementary' with Lucy Liu. Laughably, this less popular show has better character development than Sherlock does, which HEAVILY relies on its gimmick of 'asshole protagonist' (NOT to be confused with anti-hero, which a lot of people and these shows do. Because your character is an asshole doesn't make him an anti-hero). Compartmentalization for memorization is a real technique, but its not fucking magic and like everything else, its subject to degradation if not constantly reinforced.

A large part of the problem is the insufferability of the asshole protagonist and the HEAVY reliance on that gimmick to carry the show. When in reality, House would have been fucking fired a thousand times over before the first season finished and ended up in some shithole clinic. Sherlock would NOT have been tolerated at all, no matter how fucking smart he was.

Sherlock survived because of the 'asshole' gimmick and the fujoshits and Tumblerites who wrote more Slash fan fiction of Sherlock than pages exist in War and Peace. That's by and large the major problem with the asshole protagonist. You can't change them because that's what makes people coming back. If they change, the whole thing falls apart and you can see that the show just doesn't have the substance of the plot to carry it. So it has to have all these characters remain flat and unchanged. You'll have the token 'BFF gets angry and breaks up with asshole protagonist' but how long does that last? Not really all that long.

So its basically a fake subversion, because there's all style no substance. Its sort of like dividing 0 by 0. There's just nothing there, you pull back the curtain and its just an empty room. It takes everything away and replaces it with, fundamentally, an illusion. It has to rely on the psychic plot elements (figuratively, not literally) because the protagonist is fucking unlikeable otherwise. I've not seen any media where the protagonist remains unchanged as half-way decent or anything but a bait and switch, forcing the audience to like the protagonist no matter what. Because if you find House loathsome and insufferable, the show has nothing for you, because its all it offers. He's not meant to change. And honestly, its a problem in the West. These characters, no matter what happens, essentially reset. Because the show has nothing else there. And the problem with these shows is the mystery HAS to be inscrutable and impossible to figure out, because if the audience can do it, so can anyone else in the show, and the asshole protagonist would quickly be cast aside. So they MUST have these impossible powers.

Nor does the show consider people who are just as smart but are, you know, likeable. If the show ever introduces one, it is always as a villain or a fraud, because again, that would compromise the show. That would be a hilarious subversion in and of itself. Have Moriarty be a genius, but nice and Sherlock turns out to be the villain in the end because he wants the fame and recognition or he just wants to be the smartest. Neither Sherlock nor House introduce a character like this to challenge the 'asshole protagonist' on their own turf without being slightly more evil than them or being a fraud. Wouldn't that be interesting where the MC to these shows must deal with someone as good as they are but have a better personality? Huh. Almost like they couldn't fucking compete at all. And it is pure laziness to say "Oh, anyone as smart as X would be just as much of an asshole or evil". Naw. Not true in the least. Its simply because you couldn't come up with a decent dramatic arc and have to rely on your protagonist being the miracle worker rather than showing them the TINIEST bit of change.

Like, look at 'Don't Bully Me, Miss Nagatoro' (both anime and manga). She treats this guy like her personal toy (in the manga she was outright fucking vicious, its a bit more toned down in the anime) but later on the protagonist grows a spine and even learns to quip back and its clear Nagatoro likes the protagonist and their relationship changes. A silly Japanese High-School comedy can go the 'asshole' route and have her change and still have the material be appealing, but the West can't even do that for high impact Crime or Medical dramas.

The creativity in the West is honestly really pathetic. And I'd just watch Elementary for a decent portrayal of a flawed, but brilliant Holmes who isn't just a fucking cunt who would be masturbating in his own shit with a Soncihu necklace because he's severely autistic. Fuck, Sherlock is stupid. And they wonder why the BBC didn't bother going back to it. 'Asshole Protagonist' is a retarded subversion in the West, which again, is all style and no substance. Its pure trash, relying on the protagonist to have magical powers outside of the realm of reality, no matter how grounded the show tries to be.

EDIT:
I'm reminded of the episode where Sherlock has to pretend to be nice and he CANNOT EVEN DO THAT FOR A FUCKING MINUTE. Like he just de-evolves into cunt mode, even though he understands this would be idiotic. Its played off as quirky "Hahah, isn't Sherlock so autistic?" but it came off as fucking cringe as they couldn't even make a single fucking setup with him even attempting to be normal. Just have him whip his cock out and start jerking himself off if he's THAT fucking clueless, which he isn't. Its so fucking terrible and it just shows how much they rely on him being a cunt to keep things interesting as they can't even create a single fucking scenario where he has to pretend to play nice and grit his teeth, he just gives up and becomes an asshole anyway, so what's the fucking point? A gag? Get fucked. Uncreative BBC trash.

 

[Salt Water Taffy]

Has this show come up in this thread? The 19 second timestamp is intended.

It's a show I watched some of well after it's heyday and never finished because it felt too clever by half. My understanding is that it quadrupled down on subverting expectations as it went on. Its fandom seems to have tendrils in all online geek fandom as well, obsessing with background details and finery that could as easily be fluff as it could be substantial (and ultimately turns out to be fluff).
Which I always felt was a risky use of time; constructing elaborate theories out of the elements most likely to be disregarded, just to make sense of an otherwise inscrutable work. Doesn't sound fun.

I kinda got the sense that the fandom (at least here in the States) was 95% young women who just wanted to watch Benedict Cumberbatch and write fanfics where Sherlock and Watson made out with each other (or other hot dudes, remember the three-car pileup that was SuperWhoLock, which merged it with Supernatural and Doctor Who). It was sort of "come for Cumberbatch, stay for the actual plot," and that's where the crazy theorists came from. A handful of the "smarter" girls at least pretended to be interested in the plot but spent their days chasing cloudtrails instead. Meanwhile, the show got too full of itself and 2 Smart 4 U, and it sent people on increasingly pointless goose chases. When Cumberbatch's star grew too big for the BBC he left them for greener pastures and the show's been in limbo since '17, but they've been too mousy to formally call it quits and they've been trying to wrangle Cumberbatch back for series 5 for the past four years, even though no one would care anymore.

 

[Berrakh]

Sherlock got REAL fucking annoying because it was utterly impossible to figure the mystery out. Like, there's absolutely no way to do it. Its not deduction, its just Sherlock being a psychic and shoving it in everyone's face. He's using his magical powers and conjuring the answer out of nowhere.

View attachment 2145902
Its all pointless if you look at it and the entire point of a mystery show is to try and figure out the mystery along with the MC. If you can't do that what's the fucking point? His performance, much like Hugh Laurie's 'House', gets EXTREMELY fucking grating after you watch enough of it. Which is another show that basically employs "Pull shit out of nowhere" to conjure up answers.

I honestly just prefer the procedural 'Elementary' with Lucy Liu. Laughably, this less popular show has better character development than Sherlock does, which HEAVILY relies on its gimmick of 'asshole protagonist' (NOT to be confused with anti-hero, which a lot of people and these shows do. Because your character is an asshole doesn't make him an anti-hero). Compartmentalization for memorization is a real technique, but its not fucking magic and like everything else, its subject to degradation if not constantly reinforced.

A large part of the problem is the insufferability of the asshole protagonist and the HEAVY reliance on that gimmick to carry the show. When in reality, House would have been fucking fired a thousand times over before the first season finished and ended up in some shithole clinic. Sherlock would NOT have been tolerated at all, no matter how fucking smart he was.

Sherlock survived because of the 'asshole' gimmick and the fujoshits and Tumblerites who wrote more Slash fan fiction of Sherlock than pages exist in War and Peace. That's by and large the major problem with the asshole protagonist. You can't change them because that's what makes people coming back. If they change, the whole thing falls apart and you can see that the show just doesn't have the substance of the plot to carry it. So it has to have all these characters remain flat and unchanged. You'll have the token 'BFF gets angry and breaks up with asshole protagonist' but how long does that last? Not really all that long.

So its basically a fake subversion, because there's all style no substance. Its sort of like dividing 0 by 0. There's just nothing there, you pull back the curtain and its just an empty room. It takes everything away and replaces it with, fundamentally, an illusion. It has to rely on the psychic plot elements (figuratively, not literally) because the protagonist is fucking unlikeable otherwise. I've not seen any media where the protagonist remains unchanged as half-way decent or anything but a bait and switch, forcing the audience to like the protagonist no matter what. Because if you find House loathsome and insufferable, the show has nothing for you, because its all it offers. He's not meant to change. And honestly, its a problem in the West. These characters, no matter what happens, essentially reset. Because the show has nothing else there. And the problem with these shows is the mystery HAS to be inscrutable and impossible to figure out, because if the audience can do it, so can anyone else in the show, and the asshole protagonist would quickly be cast aside. So they MUST have these impossible powers.

Nor does the show consider people who are just as smart but are, you know, likeable. If the show ever introduces one, it is always as a villain or a fraud, because again, that would compromise the show. That would be a hilarious subversion in and of itself. Have Moriarty be a genius, but nice and Sherlock turns out to be the villain in the end because he wants the fame and recognition or he just wants to be the smartest. Neither Sherlock nor House introduce a character like this to challenge the 'asshole protagonist' on their own turf without being slightly more evil than them or being a fraud. Wouldn't that be interesting where the MC to these shows must deal with someone as good as they are but have a better personality? Huh. Almost like they couldn't fucking compete at all. And it is pure laziness to say "Oh, anyone as smart as X would be just as much of an asshole or evil". Naw. Not true in the least.

Like, look at 'Don't Bully Me, Miss Nagatoro' (both anime and manga). She treats this guy like her personal toy (in the manga she was outright fucking vicious, its a bit more toned down in the anime) but later on the protagonist grows a spine and even learns to quip back and its clear Nagatoro likes the protagonist and their relationship changes. A silly Japanese High-School comedy can go the 'asshole protagonist' route and have her change and still have the material be appealing, but the West can't even do that for high impact Crime or Medical dramas.

The creativity in the West is honestly really pathetic. And I'd just watch Elementary for a decent portrayal of a flawed, but brilliant Holmes who isn't just a fucking cunt who would be masturbating in his own shit with a Soncihu necklace because he's severely autistic. Fuck, Sherlock is stupid. And they wonder why the BBC didn't bother going back to it. 'Asshole Protagonist' is a retarded subversion in the West, which again, is all style and no substance. Its pure trash, relying on the protagonist to have magical powers outside of the realm of reality, no matter how grounded the show tries to be.

I remember the episodes setting up and delivering on twists, then the next scene taking the twist back. Just so the episode could be a half hour longer than really necessary.

I kinda got the sense that the fandom (at least here in the States) was 95% young women who just wanted to watch Benedict Cumberbatch and write fanfics where Sherlock and Watson made out with each other (or other hot dudes, remember the three-car pileup that was SuperWhoLock, which merged it with Supernatural and Doctor Who). It was sort of "come for Cumberbatch, stay for the actual plot," and that's where the crazy theorists came from. A handful of the "smarter" girls at least pretended to be interested in the plot but spent their days chasing cloudtrails instead. Meanwhile, the show got too full of itself and 2 Smart 4 U, and it sent people on increasingly pointless goose chases. When Cumberbatch's star grew too big for the BBC he left them for greener pastures and the show's been in limbo since '17, but they've been too mousy to formally call it quits and they've been trying to wrangle Cumberbatch back for series 5 for the past four years, even though no one would care anymore.

A fandom where every fan is a fujo shipper. Scary.

 

[Secret Asshole]

I remember the episodes setting up and delivering on twists, then the next scene taking the twist back. Just so the episode could be a half hour longer than really necessary.

A fandom where every fan is a fujo shipper. Scary.

Supernatural is worse with the fujoshits than Sherlock. Its REALLY REALLY bad. Its so bad in one episode they basically parody the fandom. And that's only like 4-5 seasons in, and Supernatural went on for 10 more years. And its known that the actors were harassed for this. It got really bad. The media doesn't actually look at toxic female fandoms at all. It was really fucking awful, tons of fics with gay incest. A gamer shouting 'nigger!' is so awful, but fujoshits writing gay incest fics and constantly sexually harassing male actors and their partners is perfectly fine.

When Cumberbatch got engaged or married, death threats were sent to the woman. Think about how mentally fucked you have to be to send death threats to a woman because your pretend crush got engaged.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

The media doesn't actually look at toxic female fandoms at all. It was really fucking awful,

Shipping, Especially Gay Shipping is hands down the single most toxic thing on the entirety of the internet.

 

[Berrakh]

The post on Sherlock reflects how hard it is to simply make changes. Because other elements belong to a settled order. Changing one thing will affect other elements or force them to change as well. Even if just by taking focus away from where you want it. IE you want to revamp a franchise by focusing more on one character but this causes other important characters to be neglected.

In the case of Sherlock/House the mysteries need to be impossible to solve or else Sherlock/House are unjustified assholes. Other brilliant minds have to fail or be frauds because otherwise Sherlock/House aren't special and are therefore unjustified assholes.
Even Spock learned to be less of a cold, aloof jerk.
At least House would face consequences for his dickery and genuinely needed people with actual feelings to vouch for him. There's something there. The series failed to find a crescendo with it ultimately but an attempt was made. Sherlock was like a lot of bad serial franchises in the sense that it had to keep the character emotionally adolescent.

 

[Secret Asshole]

Shipping, Especially Gay Shipping is hands down the single most toxic thing on the entirety of the internet.

Well, there is a reason why Fujoshi literally translates to 'rotten woman' in Japanese.

The post on Sherlock reflects how hard it is to simply make changes. Because other elements belong to a settled order. Changing one thing will affect other elements or force them to change as well. Even if just by taking focus away from where you want it. IE you want to revamp a franchise by focusing more on one character but this causes other important characters to be neglected.

In the case of Sherlock/House the mysteries need to be impossible to solve or else Sherlock/House are unjustified assholes. Other brilliant minds have to fail or be frauds because otherwise Sherlock/House aren't special and are therefore unjustified assholes.
Even Spock learned to be less of a cold, aloof jerk.
At least House would face consequences for his dickery and genuinely needed people with actual feelings to vouch for him. There's something there. The series failed to find a crescendo with it ultimately but an attempt was made. Sherlock was like a lot of bad serial franchises in the sense that it had to keep the character emotionally adolescent.

It is difficult, the problem is the gimmick can't last forever or you stagnate. You can't make anything compelling for the audience and you rely on the crutch of their personality and brilliance. Honestly, you have to have really good foils for the asshole. They have to exist and the asshole eventually has to change. The problem is there are no good foils for Sherlock. I never actually understood why Watson stuck around with him as Sherlock treated him like absolute dogshit and never changed.

You are right, at least House did face consequences. It did fail though. It is better than Sherlock by simply making the attempt. Even when its a pretend attempt the show can't even manage it.

 

[Berrakh]

Well, there is a reason why Fujoshi literally translates to 'rotten woman' in Japanese.

It is difficult, the problem is the gimmick can't last forever or you stagnate. You can't make anything compelling for the audience and you rely on the crutch of their personality and brilliance. Honestly, you have to have really good foils for the asshole. They have to exist and the asshole eventually has to change. The problem is there are no good foils for Sherlock. I never actually understood why Watson stuck around with him as Sherlock treated him like absolute dogshit and never changed.

You are right, at least House did face consequences. It did fail though. It is better than Sherlock by simply making the attempt. Even when its a pretend attempt the show can't even manage it.

I remember my Mother liked House 'until it got stupid', and I overheard one episode where he discovered his father was not his father. A big reveal but it's framed as not really solving anything. Then my Father chimed in, "too bad he's still an asshole." House would implicitly blame the father who raised him for his own personal shortcomings but now that connection is symbolically severed and he's....still an asshole. I think the man who raised him was also dead at this stage so there's really no salient connection left.

I could be wrong but I suspect that was the intended denouement. One that went nowhere fast. Which is common for TV. Different writers, overlapping productions, and the need to make the series extendable means it's wise to hold off on character development until you're sure you need it.

It's why only Sopranos and Breaking Bad seem to be remembered fondly while properties like Game of Thrones died in a fire. Because they stuck the landing far better than anything else. Each failed serial has its own specific story to tell but in the broad strokes there's always a similar tale: unknown number of seasons to make, only so many ideas, only so much character development.