Surrogacy and IVF Debate Thread

[Spud]

I would just like to thank all IVF and Surrogacy advocates ITT, with your help we are one step closer to the eugenically enhanced Utopian society and to the brave ladies who volunteer their bodies I salute you.

 

[Android raptor]

the babies don't consent to being ripped away from their mothers.

I would consent to that in a heartbeat and wish I was, I'd probably have a lot fewer mental illnesses.

if we have westron cultured womb havers being effectively predated on

That's already happening in abortion ban states and those girls and women don't even get paid for it like surrogates. Muh domestic supply of adoptable infants and all.

 

[DumbDude43]

I would just like to thank all IVF and Surrogacy advocates ITT, with your help we are one step closer to the eugenically enhanced Utopian society and to the brave ladies who volunteer their bodies I salute you.

making a bunch of busted old hags carry the children of faceless anonymous mystery men is not how you improve population health lol, it's the opposite
growing up with a geriatric mother and nonexistent father doesn't result in healthy and productive children either

 

[Yeeted Teet]

When you start implanting eggs from one woman into another though I think that it is immoral because it could impact the child, there just isn't enough information about it, and a child shouldn't be a medical experiment to see if it is harmful or not.

I haven't seen studies on the health of the child (and it would only make sense if it does cause issues) but it is known that carrying a donor egg increases the risk of a multitude of serious health conditions affecting the mother, including preeclampsia and hemorrhage. It's the kind of thing there really should be long term studies on, given that when a woman is pregnant bits of the baby's DNA cross the placenta into her body and can stay there indefinitely after she's given birth. Imagine having DNA in your body for the rest of your life that's completely unrelated to you, it can't be good.

 

[Android raptor]

making a bunch of busted old hags carry the children of faceless anonymous mystery men is not how you improve population health lol, it's the opposite
growing up with a geriatric mother and nonexistent father doesn't result in healthy and productive children either

Neither does growing up with a mother who doesn't have the capacity to properly care for a child.

Remember that one mommy blogger that adopted an autistic kid from China only to "rehome" him when he became too much work? Fun times.

It's the kind of thing there really should be long term studies on, given that when a woman is pregnant bits of the baby's DNA cross the placenta into her body and can stay there indefinitely after she's given birth.

Way to make my tokophobia even worse D:

 

[SpergioLeonne]

I think that as long as men can’t get pregnant, surrogacy violates the equal protection clause.

I don’t care about the morality of it, I just wish I could make that kind of money

 

[The Skeksis Emperor]

For the longest time I thought surrogacy meant that someone close to the couple who could not have children (a sister, a relative, a friend) would carry and bear the child. So I saw no problem with it. Only recently have I realised that surrogacy comprises very different things and it makes me very uneasy. It is child trafficking when rich couples buy a child from women who are not in a great financial position. And I have to admit the number of wealthy gay couples who buy a child this way and then completely forget to mention the female broodmare who had to make the child piss me off to no end.

The amount of people who can't naturally have a child an just adopt.

Not in every country, though. In The Netherlands for example, the government has made the adoption of Dutch children pretty much impossible - parents no matter what they do always retain parental rights, and that means that you can take care of a child for a decade and still lose it when a judge decides that mom/dad are no longer crack addicts, actually. So Dutch people tend to adopt abroad, but even that is being made very difficult. This only encourages people to use surrogacy.

 

[Kerr Avon]

Ban it all for men and women , no exceptions.

The Instagram suggested reels from the surrogacy mommy community are legit horrifying and make my skin crawl

 

[Johnny Salami]

You're against surrogacy because it uses women's bodies as commodity to be sold
I'm against surrogacy because Homos don't deserve happiness.
We are not the same

 

[Android raptor]

It is child trafficking when rich couples buy a child from women who are not in a great financial position.

That's literally what international adoption is a good chunk of the time.

There is a dark underside of the adoption industry and it involves literal human trafficking.

 

[vomitusdeux]

Surrogacy is vile and I can't support it. It's just human trafficking with extra steps. "I pay you, you birth a human for me and give it to me after ripping it from the only mother it's ever known" How is that not literal human trafficking? I didn't actually feel this way until very recently either, but to be fair I didn't really understand or care about all that went into it either.
IFV is selfishness but I guess understandable for couples, if you just absolutely have to defy nature to pass on your fucked up mutt genes for whatever reason.

 

[Ken Barlow]

Young women..... word salad

I know this is a troll account. But I will bite....

As foster carer who cannot have children. Fuck you.

Enjoy a botched mesh implant like everyone who had it implanted as "Safe" in Scotland and are fucked up. As a totes real feminist in Europe, of course, you are intimately familiar with the pain, struggles and suffering we have been through to get recognition for free IVF, compensation and recognition.

Seriously fuck you. You have no idea. Hat rant over.

 

[Yeeted Teet]

That's literally what international adoption is a good chunk of the time.

There is a dark underside of the adoption industry and it involves literal human trafficking.

The fact that shady adoption practices exist doesn't mean people should be allowed commission the creation of a person.

 

[Lidl Drip]

I know this is a troll account. But I will bite....

As foster carer who cannot have children. Fuck you.

Enjoy a botched mesh implant like everyone who had it implanted as "Safe" in Scotland and are fucked up. As a totes real feminist in Europe, of course, you are intimately familiar with the pain, struggles and suffering we have been through to get recognition for free IVF, compensation and recognition.

Seriously fuck you. You have no idea. Hat rant over.

IVF shouldn't be free. Having children is not a right and you're especially not entitled to another woman's womb or eggs.

You can always adopt if you want kids, there are many that need homes.

 

[Android raptor]

The fact that shady adoption practices exist doesn't mean people should be allowed commission the creation of a person.

Then let's ban forced pregnancy first since girls and women forced to gestate unwanted pregnancies b/c muh domestic infant supply aren't even compensated.

One of my favorite surrogacy horror stories are a straight couple who met their surrogate on a playground. The fetus ended up having a shitton of issues and the couple wanted to abort, but the surrogate didn't and was hailed a hero by the prolife crowd. However when the kid was born (with even worse issues than was diagnosed in utero), the surrogate noped out and left it at the hospital. Thankfully the kid ended up being adopted by loving parents til she passed from her issues, but still. You'd think that clusterfuck would be one of the go-to horror stories for people against surrogacy.

Elon Musk has also used surrogates and IVF a bunch of times to create kids he ignores outside of PR opportunities.

You can always adopt if you want kids, there are many that need homes.

Adoption involves literal human trafficking some of the time. The kids that need homes the most, like foster kids, are the ones nobody wants to adopt so most just age out of the system.

 

[Lidl Drip]

Then let's ban forced pregnancy first since girls and women forced to gestate unwanted pregnancies aren't even compensated.

If you turn this into another abortion debate I will lose my shit for real.

 

[Fareal]

I absolutely hate it and support all legislative efforts to make it not-happen.

You can't buy a baby. You cannot buy and sell humans. It is an absolute ethical bright line.

The fact you are renting another human as a fucking incubator, with all the risks that pregnancy and childbirth entails, only makes me more MATI about it, but fundamentally I cannot accept the sale of babies.

(Before the "but what about private adoption huh??", I also do not think private adoption should be legal.)

 

[Ken Barlow]

Utter nonsense.....

hmm yeah

there are many that need homes.

yeah that's we foster.

 

[Lidl Drip]

People like to bring up the fact that when you adopt a puppy or kitten you don't take them away from the mother until they are old enough to thrive without her but we don't afford human beings the same kindness. It's so fucked honestly.

 

[Stan]

How do I feel about surrogacy? Uh... my standard liberal programming says I'm supposed to think it's great and empowering for women to rent their reproductive system as a service, just like I'm supposed to think prostitution is great, and that 'sex work' is a valid kind of work.

But underneath the brainwashing, I still feel weird about this. I don't think a woman (or man) can sell sex or sell reproduction without selling a piece of themselves. The uterus is not a long-stay hotel, and the child you bear is physically a part of you. For 40 weeks you exchange oxygen, nutrients, blood, and cells, so that you can find pluripotent fetal cells wandering around the circulatory systems of pregnant women. So in a very real way, a child that one carries as a surrogate becomes a part of them just as a normal conception would. I think it's emotionally harder to hand over these babies than the pro-surrogacy camp wants to admit.

But, absent a way to automate this (and wouldn't that be a game changer?) How else are the gay men, the infertile, and the super-wealthy have kids? They wouldn't, so this surrogacy trade seems to mostly benefit gay men and rich people (and a few normie couples who are just normal-rich, not crazy-rich), and it seems to exploit the women involved.

I guess I have my answer now. It's exploitative and problematic, a luxury service for the upper class.

My opinion:
Surrogacy is child trafficking and it needs to be banned ASAP. We really have reached a point of medical dystopia where doctors are playing god instead of saving peoples life. This sounds harsh but if you can't have children naturally that sucks but you don't get to use another woman's womb and egg to create a child that wasn't meant to exist and will never know it's mother. It's unbelievably cruel and evil. I feel similarly about IVF although I think some fertility treatments are okay. The consequences of people actively going against natural selection are going to be a disaster for humanity. Nick Fuentes is an IVF baby for example.

I disagree mildly w you Lidl.

In the ideal case, surrogates have no genetic relationship to the child they bear. The ovum and sperm come from other people (potentially, from the couple who needs a surrogate.) even in the less than ideal case of “trad” (ie biblical) surrogacy, the baby is still related to its father.

It’s not trafficking per se for a parent to take their genetically related child away from its mother. This happens during divorces sometimes, if mom is really fucked up. I DO think that it is exploitative and a luxury service utilized by the upper class and provided by desperate women in foreign countries who need to care for their existing kids.

As for IVF… I’d have no problem if the egg donor is also the gestational mom is also the client. When it’s two parents trying to get a surrogate to carry their zygote to term for money, I think that’s exploitative. Celebrities use surrogates a lot - this is why Elon has 10 living kids. So it isn’t a compassionate service afforded to the deserving, it’s just a fancy thing rich people can do.

Humans trying to force their will upon nature rarely ends well.

Disagree! We do this all the time. I forced my will on Nature at least 80 times today. Fuck you, nature!

As for IVF, I don't like the false hope it gives people. Couples will spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying various fertility treatments only to end up in failure. I wish the foster system wasn't as fucked up as it is so those couples could maybe use those resources on helping other children.

I remember in the shul there was a subset of women who were infertile and they had a support group about this. Partly because I think the demand to reproduce is higher amongst Orthodox Jews.

It's also extremely dangerous and a much more invasive procedure than sperm donation and several woman literally died during the retrieval procedure. I doubt they really educate women about the dangers properly.

No, I’m sure they don’t, they take a female body in the prime of her life and denude her of dozens and dozens of mature ova. It’s got to be damaging to future fertility imo
Also the lifestyle restrictions imposed on egg donors is pretty darn strict! So you’re like livestock for the duration of your contract.