Tabletop Community Watch

[Flexo]

The setting doesn't actually run on that world view, iirc faith in general is enough to keep you (relatively) safe from the hordes of hell since one of the most powerful nations is the Islamic Iron Sultanate.

Oh you can have some fun flame wars discussing whether Islam is "christian adjacent" or not - whether they truly worship YHWH or whether Muhammad was deceived by Satan is hotly debated online. But it's not uncommon for it to be lumped in under the Abrahamic umbrella.

I at least don't see any sign of pagan factions glancing at the earlier wiki link. If faith in like Thor can protect you in that world, that would be as you describe and not the case of specifically joining YHWH's team.

 

[p1138]

This is a hell of a lot funnier than I remember. I think I must have only started paying attention after the ban.

There was so much OC donut steal floating around that discord you tended to tune a lot of it out.

I like how after what seems like a half dozen kiwis explaining it, it continues to get more ridiculous each time. And of course it happened because OC donut steel... but even that only seems to have occurred due to little thought put into the setting and the worst way to distribute lore due to everything just being shit tacked onto what is still clearly just another art project with no thought behind it other than some vague themes for the art itself and then a mediocre game system stapled ontop of that.

 

[Ghostse]

You know, it doesn't even sound far-fetched to say that the religion centered around human sacrifice might be demonic in nature. Would it really be surprising that they would find kindred spirits in another cruel group that hates Christianity?

The aztecs had a festival for their corn god that required the sacrifice of many dozens of young children, like 4-6 years old. These screaming, crying children would be paraded around the city, This was because their tears would nourish the Corn God, and so it was the duty of the priests to ensure these children cried as much possible on their way to being skinned alive: beating them, telling them how much it was going to hurt to be skinned and burned alive, etc.

This is not the behavior of a society on the side of good.

I mean it's a very, very old concept in Judiasm and early Christianity both that the pagan gods were demons/fallen angels leading the other nations astray.

So like... this is the least surprising thing once you hear the game runs on that worldview.

Which COULD actually be turned into a pretty cool concept Re: Aztecs where they DO realize their Gods are the shittiest sort of demons and overthrow them. So you could have "reformed aztecs" worshipping whatever bullshit the apollogics believe they worshipped sending troops to help the Spainish, and then Aztecs who doubled down even harder on being sadistic cannibal pieces of shit in the demonic armies.

Or you also just double down and have them be the most problematic of good-guy allies, where the Aztec demons are a different faction from the Satanic legions and sort of to the Aztec religion, doing all this fucked up shit is what powers their sadistic pantheon to keep hellgates from opening up in Central America; the Smoking Mirror doesn't want the Aztecs to rip the hearts from 5000 slaves every solar eclipse, but that's the only way he can gather enough power to keep Hell on its side of the ocean.
And if you have to brutally sacrifice thousands of people every year.... why not have those people be piece of shit satanic cultists?

 

[p1138]

Or you also just double down and have them be the most problematic of good-guy allies, where the Aztec demons are a different faction from the Satanic legions and sort of to the Aztec religion, doing all this fucked up shit is what powers their sadistic pantheon to keep hellgates from opening up in Central America; the Smoking Mirror doesn't want the Aztecs to rip the hearts from 5000 slaves every solar eclipse, but that's the only way he can gather enough power to keep Hell on its side of the ocean.
And if you have to brutally sacrifice thousands of people every year.... why not have those people be piece of shit satanic cultists?

If the writers for this TC shit had any sense, that would be something you save for a massive 2nd wave expansion after the game has proven to be a success. Of course the problem is that it requires villainizing brown people, even though there could be plenty of factions between North and South America doing their own part with assistance from the other side of the Atlantic to keep hell holes from opening, or fighting off an opened hell hole in Central America.

Of course this also requires a "what if" scenario of the various tribes in North and South America actually having developed anything worth a shit with the 500 years of little interaction with Europe due to Europe being busy. I don't trust the writers having the brain power to come up with anything other than a Native American Wakanda equivalent.

 

[Muad'Dick]

I like how after what seems like a half dozen kiwis explaining it, it continues to get more ridiculous each time. And of course it happened because OC donut steel... but even that only seems to have occurred due to little thought put into the setting and the worst way to distribute lore due to everything just being shit tacked onto what is still clearly just another art project with no thought behind it other than some vague themes for the art itself and then a mediocre game system stapled ontop of that.

While it held my interest, TC was a wild ride. Any enthusiasm I had for it has completely evaporated now.

Its just too much of a clusterfuck. Every single aspect of it has been mismanaged. I received an email earlier in the month to say that the book has now been delayed. They're putting an extra 100 pages in there. How much of this is going to be errata, Satanichu additions from the "community" or making the lore make sense is anyone's guess.

Inclusivity shouldn't be extended to the design/fundamentals. They should have just told everyone that isn't directly involved in the project to fuck off. These are the same kind of cunts that want Xenos in 30K. Just fuck off and play 7th. Nobody wants your OC.

A lot of the problems with TC, from shit the STLs to discord drama, could have been solved if they just nutted up and ignored the people who weren't in the team (including the 28Fag hangers on).

 

[Henri Barbusse]

Aztec apologia is so fucking weird because their descendants are indirectly on the side of the colonists. So were the competing city states with a 10% different religion. Imagine being angry on behalf of the Jews for the extinction of the Amalekites.

The descendants of Montezuma are still members of the highest Spanish nobility.

Which COULD actually be turned into a pretty cool concept Re: Aztecs where they DO realize their Gods are the shittiest sort of demons and overthrow them. So you could have "reformed aztecs" worshipping whatever bullshit the apollogics believe they worshipped sending troops to help the Spainish, and then Aztecs who doubled down even harder on being sadistic cannibal pieces of shit in the demonic armies.

My personal take would be that the Aztecs find out that all the blood sacrifices did not actually appease their gods, so now they have to fight the gods. They would fight the demons, while all their subject city states etc. where they drew most of the sacrifices from would be fighting with the demons against the Aztecs. Maybe all the former Aztec subjects would now be the ones perfoming sacrifices, since they empower the demons. It's basic, but workable enough if you're allowed to have natives fight each other.

 

[Adamska]

if you're allowed to have natives fight each other.

That's the problem; these fucktarded cry babies do not tolerate the concept of not having solidarity due to their retarded takes on race where they all have to get along due to not looking white.

They try to as hard as humanly possible doublethink and deny that tribes hated and competed with each other as often as they traded or got along to form confederations. Which is all performative anyway given the knives they love to pull out to stab each other the moment they have a cassus belli of social ruination in their heads ready to go.

 

[Buckaroo]

Oh you can have some fun flame wars discussing whether Islam is "christian adjacent" or not - whether they truly worship YHWH or whether Muhammad was deceived by Satan is hotly debated online. But it's not uncommon for it to be lumped in under the Abrahamic umbrella.

That's fair, I just personally think the difference between how they represent the Christian factions and the Iron Sultanate to be weird and not make a lot of sense with the lore that was available when I last looked into the setting.

I at least don't see any sign of pagan factions glancing at the earlier wiki link. If faith in like Thor can protect you in that world, that would be as you describe and not the case of specifically joining YHWH's team.

By the time TC diverges from real world history, the Nordic countries had already converted to Christianity so it's unlikely TC will ever officially get that unless they retcon things.

Edit: To clarify what I mean about the differences between the Christians and Muslims and it not making sense, the two just seem completely incompatible if they're supposed to be worshiping the same God but are both still blessed. Plus the Jesus clones existing strongly implies Islam is wrong.

 

[Ghostse]

The real core issue I'm seeing with TC is they are promising "Warhammer 40K but WWI and instead of allegory with the God Emperor just straight up actual blasphmey (but nothing with mohammed because we don't want to die)" but they have both gone too hard into the "Crusade" part instead of the "Trench" and their lore is just wholly unworkable.

Honestly I think just a more traditional, if expanded, traditional WWI scenario but where both sides have gone all-in on zealotry would have met the promises of the concept art better. And since all sides are going full zealot, it lets. you hold up that dark mirror of "Who is actually the agent of evil"?
It would also let you expand into things like Pagan Cults and other religions instead of just constant "THE JEWS...DEO-CHRISTIAN", which is what you'd need to do unless you're just going to full "World-wide everyone converts to some type of Christianity or they are literally on the side of the devil"


Or I guess:
You can totally set up a theological standoff in a gnostic sense where Lucifer truly is The Light Bringer and while the demons look horrifying they are only suffering unjust punishments inflicted on them by The One God for trying to elevate humans to enlightment instead of an existence of simply worshippers, and a lot of the negative effects visited by them on those who worship them aren't any different than what true-form Archangels do to mortals. But you can't do that and have the moral grey that makes 40K attract so much attention.

 

[Buckaroo]

This is why I prefer how A War Transformed approaches this kind of setting. The various nations are pretty much just band wagoning on the old god worship to win the war and Your Dudes have a lot of wiggle room for how ok they are with it.

Unless you're a Freikorps player, they're pretty much all in on it since they think it's the only way to uncuck Germany.

 

[harbringer883]

Aztec apologia is so fucking weird because their descendants are indirectly on the side of the colonists. So were the competing city states with a 10% different religion. Imagine being angry on behalf of the Jews for the extinction of the Amalekites.

brown people = good

The real core issue I'm seeing with TC is they are promising "Warhammer 40K but WWI and instead of allegory with the God Emperor just straight up actual blasphmey (but nothing with mohammed because we don't want to die)" but they have both gone too hard into the "Crusade" part instead of the "Trench" and their lore is just wholly unworkable.

Cucks couldent even destroy mecca in their own setting so they had to invent some "magic sandstorm" around the city.

 

[Flexo]

That's fair, I just personally think the difference between how they represent the Christian factions and the Iron Sultanate to be weird and not make a lot of sense with the lore that was available when I last looked into the setting.

Ah I gotcha.

By the time TC diverges from real world history, the Nordic countries had already converted to Christianity so it's unlikely TC will ever officially get that unless they retcon things.

Edit: To clarify what I mean about the differences between the Christians and Muslims and it not making sense, the two just seem completely incompatible if they're supposed to be worshiping the same God but are both still blessed. Plus the Jesus clones existing strongly implies Islam is wrong.

Hmm... actually Jesus clones would be more proof of Islam than Christianity since Muslims believe Jesus to be just a man and prophet while Christians believe He is the distinct, unique and uncreated son of The God. Being able to clone Him would open up so many can of worms theologically while the Muslims would be able to claim "see? told you he was super prophet."

Though now you and something @Ghostse said make me think a kind of primitive Trench Crusade, where we went REALLY old school and had armies across time clashing where each is backed by some horrible and frightening pagan god would be... interesting. Then you could have the Aztecs natives vs the Ba'al arabs vs the Odin whites... all engaging in bronze-punk warfare across the earth...

That would be pretty metal.

 

[Ghostse]

This is why I prefer how A War Transformed approaches this kind of setting. The various nations are pretty much just band wagoning on the old god worship to win the war and Your Dudes have a lot of wiggle room for how ok they are with it.

Doing a quick skim,that's more the shit they should have gone for with Trench Crusade. Like you say, its Old God worship and pretty much 100% transactional - doesn't matter if you believe, those runes painted on your armor in virgin's blood do stop bullets so get to sacrificing and painting.

The idea of the wargame you are playing being either close urban/ruins warfare or when the order is given to go "over the top" also squares the circle of "why melee when guns & artillery exist?". Plus leans much harder into the WWI aesthetic which is both airplanes and calvary are viable on the battlefield.

Though now you and something @Ghostse said make me think a kind of primitive Trench Crusade, where we went REALLY old school and had armies across time clashing where each is backed by some horrible and frightening pagan god would be... interesting. Then you could have the Aztecs natives vs the Ba'al arabs vs the Odin whites... all engaging in bronze-punk warfare across the earth...

Leaning into that even harder, usually each city had its own local deity.
So theres no real "univeral good/evil" there is just a bunch of supernatural deities in a slapfight to be top-dog.

 

[Flexo]

Leaning into that even harder, usually each city had its own local deity.
So theres no real "univeral good/evil" there is just a bunch of supernatural deities in a slapfight to be top-dog.

Exactly! And like a gritty warhammer it's more like, "you join with someone or get run over by those who have." You could get into some real obscure history in it.

Heck even among the pagans in the real world there was sometimes an effort at unity. "Oh you call your storm god Ba'al? We call him Zeus. Let us say he is the same and combine our worship." Flip that on its head in your fiction and like... make it clear they are NOT the same. Instead they're all fighting it out to see who gets to be top storm god. (or god of death or whatever) Given each city/faction its own deity and you'd be able to milk lore out of that for years.

 

[Buckaroo]

Hmm... actually Jesus clones would be more proof of Islam than Christianity since Muslims believe Jesus to be just a man and prophet while Christians believe He is the distinct, unique and uncreated son of The God. Being able to clone Him would open up so many can of worms theologically while the Muslims would be able to claim "see? told you he was super prophet."

You're giving them too much credit, the TC's idea of Christianity is about on par with Ethan Ralph's, just shout "God is kang!" and you're a Christian.

Doing a quick skim,that's more the shit they should have gone for with Trench Crusade. Like you say, its Old God worship and pretty much 100% transactional - doesn't matter if you believe, those runes painted on your armor in virgin's blood do stop bullets so get to sacrificing and painting.

The idea of the wargame you are playing being either close urban/ruins warfare or when the order is given to go "over the top" also squares the circle of "why melee when guns & artillery exist?". Plus leans much harder into the WWI aesthetic which is both airplanes and calvary are viable on the battlefield.

Yeah, I really like it since the book outright says a lot of soldiers aren't really crazy about ritually sacrificing captured enemies but it gets results. Again, unless you're the Freikorps which is basically AWT's equivalent of Chaos warbands.

Another thing that helps it is the moon shattering and the tides changing set everyone behind in producing equipment so vehicles and real artillery is rarer. Plus bloodshed causes supernaturally thick forests to grow thanks to the old gods.

 

[Flexo]

You're giving them too much credit, the TC's idea of Christianity is about on par with Ethan Ralph's, just shout "God is kang!" and you're a Christian.

That is not surprising yet still disappointing.

They don't have to totally nerd out and propose some alt history where the East/West divide never happened or have like a "filioque" troop or anything, but things like wars and conflicts tend to make institutions stronger, not weaker.

Luthor is probably not going to be nailing his thesis to a door when the building is getting bombed by Hell forces.

 

[Adamska]

That is not surprising yet still disappointing.

It's just more evidence that it as a product was done purely off of art and vibes first and no thinking beyond the bare minimum to get it slopped out. You could do all sorts of neat fucking ideas if you actually played with the idea of there being a hell that leeches in and corrupts a world due to the excesses of the Templars and Sack of Jerusalem.

Like for example, can you envision the rise of movements like the many Franciscan groups that would become deemed heretical due to their obsession over poverty in that setting? They could argue they have a point in it. Same with the Cathars. You could also have the Hussites and other Protestant equivalents form due to the desire to combat corruption and sin and inturn be captured.

Like imagine the Anabaptists in their early years; who were fanatic and could be warlike as shit.

And that's just in Christianity. There's also the massive changes in Islam too; like for example the rise of Millenarian Shi'ite movements in Persia. Imagine a world where one of the tolerated bulwarks to fight the Devil requires you to pay heed to the Shahenshah of Persia, who was one of those.

Then you can also have this hell get explored with Naraka as a concept.

But that's too much effort. Just make Sisters Penitence Booba art and pretend you're better than Warhams. That be the fucking ticket.

Though now you and something @Ghostse said make me think a kind of primitive Trench Crusade, where we went REALLY old school and had armies across time clashing where each is backed by some horrible and frightening pagan god would be... interesting. Then you could have the Aztecs natives vs the Ba'al arabs vs the Odin whites... all engaging in bronze-punk warfare across the earth...

You have no idea how much you could do with Hellenistic era cultures and deities. Dionysus alone would make people cringe at what his cult do, and that's not even getting into the Sybillines. Also there's some historical extent you could do with a Sword and Sandal setting involving the gods.

For example, Carthage's Sacred Band were the rare native Carthaginian unit that didn't suck and who actually fought on a professional level, since unlike most they were devotees to Ba'al Hammon, and pledged to fight for him, the chief god of their city.