Tabletop Community Watch

[Muad'Dick]

It's amazing how they've made something simultaneously cheap to try and appeal to everyone on a cost perspective but still managed to fail at basically everything else

It isn't cheap though. Nobody is out there pumping out cheap plastic minis for the game. Its all 3D printed. Sure you could pick up a few Wargames Atlantic kits for rank and file New Antioch or Heretic Legion, but for the rest of the units you're looking at kitbashing if you haven't got access to a 3D printer or someone who can print them for you. If we're being honest, kitbashing doesn't come cheap if you don't already have a big pile of bits you've accumulated over the years. You're buying minis just to cannibalise them. Thats the very definition of not cheap. The people selling pre-printed stuff are already milking the market because of the hype surrounding the game. If you have the gear to print the stuff yourself thats fine, but the Factory Fortress STLs aren't a million miles away from physical miniatures in terms of pricing.

I want to know how its going to get any traction as an actual game. Both of my local FLGS have dropped it as a mainstay. One through lack of interest and the other because they don't rent tables, and if there isn't an accompanying product that they can stock then whats the point? Theres nothing wrong with a bit of garagecore when it comes to gaming, but it rarely sustains a game long-term. You don't have to go down the competitive route, but at least give stores an incentive to host the game.

...And we're this far into the game and there still isn't an up to date rules/list resource on the web without resorting to Groomcord.

 

[iceteayo]

It isn't cheap though. Nobody is out there pumping out cheap plastic minis for the game. Its all 3D printed. Sure you could pick up a few Wargames Atlantic kits for rank and file New Antioch or Heretic Legion, but for the rest of the units you're looking at kitbashing if you haven't got access to a 3D printer or someone who can print them for you. If we're being honest, kitbashing doesn't come cheap if you don't already have a big pile of bits you've accumulated over the years. You're buying minis just to cannibalise them. Thats the very definition of not cheap. The people selling pre-printed stuff are already milking the market because of the hype surrounding the game. If you have the gear to print the stuff yourself thats fine, but the Factory Fortress STLs aren't a million miles away from physical miniatures in terms of pricing.

I want to know how its going to get any traction as an actual game. Both of my local FLGS have dropped it as a mainstay. One through lack of interest and the other because they don't rent tables, and if there isn't an accompanying product that they can stock then whats the point? Theres nothing wrong with a bit of garagecore when it comes to gaming, but it rarely sustains a game long-term. You don't have to go down the competitive route, but at least give stores an incentive to host the game.

...And we're this far into the game and there still isn't an up to date rules/list resource on the web without resorting to Groomcord.

I also think there are less actual 3D printer people out there than the amount who brag about it online, this entire situation is just fucked lol I do not like Arch or his copies but their online audiences do still swarm Warhammer and they were all for shilling ANYTHING that provided an alternative and inq28 didnt want chuds so this is what is happening but the issue is the chud autists at the end of the day are the true supporters of table wargames. Wargaming doesnt have the appeal to drama kids it appeals to numbers/historical/war autismos who typically always lean middle or rightwing

Games Workshop knows this and I bet they always frankly knew their primary fanbase were "problematic" but often brush the issue under the rug, and now whenever their chud fans are brought to the lime light GW has to put out yet another twitter post, say the imperium and 40k are meant to be ironic, and they go back to selling Space Marine captain goodguy fighting chaos lord evil baby eater next week. See 40k used to be ironic but ever since the 2000s its just played straight with minor tongue in cheek becasue that doesnt sell.

 

[p1138]

It isn't cheap though. Nobody is out there pumping out cheap plastic minis for the game. Its all 3D printed. Sure you could pick up a few Wargames Atlantic kits for rank and file New Antioch or Heretic Legion, but for the rest of the units you're looking at kitbashing if you haven't got access to a 3D printer or someone who can print them for you. If we're being honest, kitbashing doesn't come cheap if you don't already have a big pile of bits you've accumulated over the years. You're buying minis just to cannibalise them. Thats the very definition of not cheap. The people selling pre-printed stuff are already milking the market because of the hype surrounding the game. If you have the gear to print the stuff yourself thats fine, but the Factory Fortress STLs aren't a million miles away from physical miniatures in terms of pricing.

I want to know how its going to get any traction as an actual game. Both of my local FLGS have dropped it as a mainstay. One through lack of interest and the other because they don't rent tables, and if there isn't an accompanying product that they can stock then whats the point? Theres nothing wrong with a bit of garagecore when it comes to gaming, but it rarely sustains a game long-term. You don't have to go down the competitive route, but at least give stores an incentive to host the game.

...And we're this far into the game and there still isn't an up to date rules/list resource on the web without resorting to Groomcord.

I think part of their "thinking" is that it's really a skirmish game with what a dozen minis per side, and not a full army game with dozens. And yes, they could have hired a web developer and put together a decent site ages ago already.

I also think there are less actual 3D printer people out there than the amount who brag about it online, this entire situation is just fucked lol I do not like Arch or his copies but their online audiences do still swarm Warhammer and they were all for shilling ANYTHING that provided an alternative and inq28 didnt want chuds so this is what is happening but the issue is the chud autists at the end of the day are the true supporters of table wargames. Wargaming doesnt have the appeal to drama kids it appeals to numbers/historical/war autismos who typically always lean middle or rightwing

The 3d printing "community" is a vocal minority in basically every space they exist in, as it's expensive and still its own hobby that not everyone is interested in or has the space and time for. While the most vocal in the 3d printing community seem to just produce a mountain of plastic or resin garbage nonstop that they never actually do anything with. It almost reminds me of linux gaming in a way for basically the past 20+ years.

The drama kids aspect would probably be why as popular as TC pretends to be, you hardly see anyone actually playing the game. At the end of the day if people aren't playing a wargame and a large part of their audience hates what little lore there is, wtf is the point other than just being another thing to consoom?

 

[Sunflower Samurai]

>6 gorillion in marketing and you still have to download "beta" faction rules off a discord post (everything is technically a beta btw)

Lol
Lmao

I think TC's current offerings are also still pretty expensive for what they are, ill make an autistic comparison with its contemporaries both internet only faggotry (OPR) and established shit like Wargames Atlantic or Oathmark. Its an interesting thing to look at whenever people bitch about the cost of wargaming, because its almost always because GW is a giant wanker and people that are desperate for GW like offerings. Not because of a lack of options.

Tistic basic Analysis done, its grim

Spoiler: Pricepoints

Trench Crusade
Starter Box – None
Warband – 50 Dollars each for most basic starter, 68 to 98 USD for remaining units depending on faction

Frostgrave – Osprey Games
Starter Box - https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=18318 64.50 Pounds 2 people (81.70 USD)
28 Models, 10 Footmen, 8 wizards for leaders
2 dice, 6 tokens, rulebook

Deadzone – Mantic
Starter Box - https://www.manticgames.com/deadzone/the-fall-of-omega-vii-deadzone-2-player-set/ 120 Pounds (153.54 USD) 2 people
29 Models (two factions), all tokens needed, rulebook, terrain and playmat included

Infinity – Corvs Belli
Starter Box - https://www.miniaturemarket.com/inf...anoceania-2-player-starter-set-cvb280057.html 48.99 USD 2 player
6 Models (two factions), Mat, Scenery, Dice and Tokens

Blckout – Enemy Spotted Studios
Starter Box - https://www.blkoutgame.com/products/2-player-starter-kit 120USD 2 player
15 models (two factions), Rulebook, Tokens, Dice,

Marvel Crisis Protocol – Atomic Mass games
Starter Box - https://store.asmodee.com/products/marvel-crisis-protocol-miniatures-game-core-set 99.95 USD 2 player
10 Models (5 heroes, 5 Villians) Terrain, Tokens, Dice, Scenery, Range Tools, rulebook

Killteam Starter Set – Games Workshop
Starter Box - https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/kill-team-starter-set-2024-eng 112 USD
14 Minatures, Dice, Terrain, Game board, Rulebook

Note that Trench Crusade's miniature agnosticism and free rulebook technically would make it cheaper, but not at all affordable or viable for LGS-es selling constant churns of merchandise for it. Currently, if buying official, it is a much worse deal than even Killteam.

 

[Muad'Dick]

The 3d printing "community" is a vocal minority in basically every space they exist in, as it's expensive and still its own hobby that not everyone is interested in or has the space and time for. While the most vocal in the 3d printing community seem to just produce a mountain of plastic or resin garbage nonstop that they never actually do anything with. It almost reminds me of linux gaming in a way for basically the past 20+ years.

Yup. I print for myself and sell prints too, and even I can acknowledge that 3D printing is a niche within a niche. Its massively overstated within the hobby. Cast resin has always been good quality and 3D printing is up there with it now in terms of definition. Both resins are shit to work with because of the precautions needed either in printing and/or the prep work needed before you start slapping paint on things. Cast resin has been around since forever and the production costs are a fraction of those required for plastic, but theres a reason it never became the de facto way of producing models. The vast majority of people shouldn't be handling resin in the first place. It makes me wince when I see people on YouTube dry sanding resin without even a dust mask on. You may as well snort a line of it.

 

[Purple fur Pomeranian]

Even Onepagerules have a better price point than Trench Crusade in terms of their games. https://www.etsy.com/listing/181495...ick_sum=51087417&ref=shop_home_active_2&crt=1

 

[Sunflower Samurai]

Even Onepagerules have a better price point than Trench Crusade in terms of their games. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1814957248/the-last-stand-grimdark-future-firefight?click_key=79d566fbbd92bc2aa257798026266d3a172f8a59:1814957248&click_sum=51087417&ref=shop_home_active_2&crt=1

That listing completely slipped my mind, i actually held off on including them because their plastic kit is currently indev and i was mostly focusing on shit that was buyable now and possibly able to be stocked by an LGS

Fun fact: OPR actually switched from Onlygames to a print company in Poland because of the horrible quality

https://www.onepagerules.com/news/changes-to-our-only-games-store

Shortly after, they announced their own etsy page

https://www.onepagerules.com/news/grand-opening-of-our-etsy-store

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Games Workshop knows this and I bet they always frankly knew their primary fanbase were "problematic" but often brush the issue under the rug, and now whenever their chud fans are brought to the lime light GW has to put out yet another twitter post, say the imperium and 40k are meant to be ironic, and they go back to selling Space Marine captain goodguy fighting chaos lord evil baby eater next week. See 40k used to be ironic but ever since the 2000s its just played straight with minor tongue in cheek becasue that doesnt sell.

Here's the thing GW would make way more money if they just said yes we are a white supremacist company yes the setting glorifies fascism please go away now they would sell so many miniatures

 

[iceteayo]

Here's the thing GW would make way more money if they just said yes we are a white supremacist company yes the setting glorifies fascism please go away now they would sell so many miniatures

This would never have happened even before the culture wars

 

[Shakatherapy]

If we are talking about starter box pricing for Battletech there is the game of armored combat box with 8 minis, a rulebook, dice, and playmats for $45.

Or there is the Alpha Stike box for $80 with 13 minis, cardboard terrain, and a rulebook.

 

[p1138]

Here's the thing GW would make way more money if they just said yes we are a white supremacist company yes the setting glorifies fascism please go away now they would sell so many miniatures

This would have killed GW in the 90s or early 2000s, let alone before any culture wars. You seem to have forgotten how the city, and UK itself have propped up GW multiple times as some shining beacon of UK design and manufacturing over the decades in addition to the fact that they'd have never gotten the retail presence in the US that they currently have. It isn't like RaHoWa or even FATAL were flying off shelves in the RPG section at the local game store in the early 2000's either(they weren't there at all).

 

[Muad'Dick]

Fun fact: OPR actually switched from Onlygames to a print company in Poland because of the horrible quality

I hope with the advent of tariffs and the general state of the economy worldwide that the larger print companies go the way of the dodo. Most of them are just opportunists that have no passion for the hobby. Thats not say that the one-man bands out there are perfect, far from it, they're just as guilty as pumping out shit, but companies like OnlyGames do nothing but ultimately damage the hobby. Especially for games that are reliant on 3D models.

As I've said, resin is a pain in the ass and people need to take the precautions necessary when handling it seriously, but it is possible to get fantastic results out of it. Though if your only experience with resin is through the likes of Forge World you'd be forgiven if you thought it wasn't worth the effort. People just need to stop giving inept companies their money. There are alternatives out there.

Take this as an example. If you've bought the Forge World Belladonna model you'll know just how bad it is for flash, warping and mold slip. The mold slip in particular is almost impossible to correct because of the detail of the model. This is a recast that isn't far off half of the price of the official model, and it is better in every respect. The only clean up required for this was a soak in warm soapy water to get rid of any release agent that was left.

 

[ZMOT]

I hope with the advent of tariffs and the general state of the economy worldwide that the larger print companies go the way of the dodo. Most of them are just opportunists that have no passion for the hobby. Thats not say that the one-man bands out there are perfect, far from it, they're just as guilty as pumping out shit, but companies like OnlyGames do nothing but ultimately damage the hobby. Especially for games that are reliant on 3D models.

depends, onlygames issue is that it's tied to MMF. an independent service would be less bad, and you need a certain volume to have access to options you otherwise wouldn't get with a DLP printer. no one is buying a 200k mimaki just because, or set up a whole siocast operation for himself. it's not much different than going to a copyshop for anything >10 pages instead of buying a 4k laserjet for yourself.

someone would need to look into the price for material which might be reason for the price in the end, but I get the impression they simply want to recoup fast (or think they can ask the price), which puts them almost in GW territory, where the whole point of 3d printed models becomes moot - might as well buy GW plastic if it's only a few bucks more.

 

[p1138]

depends, onlygames issue is that it's tied to MMF. an independent service would be less bad, and you need a certain volume to have access to options you otherwise wouldn't get with a DLP printer. no one is buying a 200k mimaki just because, or set up a whole siocast operation for himself. it's not much different than going to a copyshop for anything >10 pages instead of buying a 4k laserjet for yourself.

someone would need to look into the price for material which might be reason for the price in the end, but I get the impression they simply want to recoup fast (or think they can ask the price), which puts them almost in GW territory, where the whole point of 3d printed models becomes moot - might as well buy GW plastic if it's only a few bucks more.

Materials, design time, lots of back end things can drive up the price for the consumer. But I would suspect at least a part of it is relying on GWs model prices for justification of their own.

Problem is that even TC relying on onlygames/MMF tariffs can still be an issue for materials even if the equipment has long made its money back. And of course anyone who doesn't own a printer yet and will be buying one and the materials for it may be in for some tariff related sticker shock as well soon.

And while 3d prints have gotten better, the stuff coming off of the home machines is still kinda shit. Privateer Press was doing that before getting bought by SFG and was shipping uncured parts, resin oozing, support scars that looked like someone was slashing at the model with a knife, it's ridiculous compared to just scraping a couple mold lines and nub marks from sprues.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

someone would need to look into the price for material which might be reason for the price in the end, but I get the impression they simply want to recoup fast (or think they can ask the price), which puts them almost in GW territory, where the whole point of 3d printed models becomes moot - might as well buy GW plastic if it's only a few bucks more.

gw Plobly makes 110% profit if I'd have to go on what I know about the TTR PG space off each model the fact that they constantly claim they need to raise prices is patently absurd

 

[p1138]

gw Plobly makes 110% profit if I'd have to go on what I know about the TTR PG space off each model the fact that they constantly claim they need to raise prices is patently absurd

The models cost pennies to make once the design and molds have been done, and for some of the more popular shit costs costs will have been paid off very quickly but that's no different than any other company producing plastic model kits. GW generally makes around 40% of their revenue as profit after all of their business expenses. Their paper products will have a lower cost to get to production, but the costs to produce will be higher(printed books, tokens, cards, shit like that) but again we're talking in the range of cents for shit and a few bucks for the hardback books.

The initial costs for the TC people to produce models is probably going to be lower, seeing as how they don't need to cut molds, test them, etc. But their material and production time costs per model will likely be higher than GWs due to outsourcing, but again at scale there is a lot of margin especially when they can price their sets and individual models using GWs pricing as an anchor for consumers.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

The initial costs for the TC people to produce models is probably going to be lower, seeing as how they don't need to cut molds, test them, etc. But their material and production time costs per model will likely be higher than GWs due to outsourcing, but again at scale there is a lot of margin especially when they can price their sets and individual models using GWs pricing as an anchor for consumers.

Trench Crusade is never gonna get off the ground because somehow they're more infested with posed nonsense than GW which is saying a lot man I really wish Rick Priestly would get hired back at GW and replace all of the low iq people walking now he would make war him a great again.
I actually picked up a bunch of the other game he created action gun.
Really all of the original GW guys created a bunch of other stuff that's good

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

I'm just going to say TC failure has nothing to do with the poz nature of its creator but the fact they just aren't marketing it very well. This is a brand new IP being compared to Warhammer when it should be advertised as a alt history / horror skirmish game. It doesn't help the only people doing any kind of videos for it are the larger Warhammer channels using video titles like "Warhammer Killer" etc.
If I was to compare TC to anything it would be turnip28 because they had very similar beginnings, some dudes personal art project that evolved into something more with a community that enjoyed the setting.
Adepticon was a huge opportunity to showcase the system and range as a whole but there was a couple demo tables in another hall away from the booth, a laughable presentation and the only thing they sold were fucking stickers!
I again repeat, woke didn't kill TC the incompetence of it's creators is what killed TC.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Adepticon was a huge opportunity to showcase the system and range as a whole but there was a couple demo tables in another hall away from the booth, a laughable presentation and the only thing they sold were fucking stickers!

Trying to get TTrgP designers from my experience of being part of a team to to actually try and market the product rather than talking about concepts it's like trying to herd cats

 

[Ghostse]

I'm just going to say TC failure has nothing to do with the poz nature of its creator but the fact they just aren't marketing it very well. This is a brand new IP being compared to Warhammer when it should be advertised as a alt history / horror skirmish game. It doesn't help the only people doing any kind of videos for it are the larger Warhammer channels using video titles like "Warhammer Killer" etc.
If I was to compare TC to anything it would be turnip28 because they had very similar beginnings, some dudes personal art project that evolved into something more with a community that enjoyed the setting.
Adepticon was a huge opportunity to showcase the system and range as a whole but there was a couple demo tables in another hall away from the booth, a laughable presentation and the only thing they sold were fucking stickers!
I again repeat, woke didn't kill TC the incompetence of it's creators is what killed TC.

The creator pozz is related. If the moderators were not permatriggered trannies, not everyone critical of system would have been banned for being a Nazi Chud. They might have to deal with voices telling them how badly they are fucking up and needs to get their shit together and a project manager.

Additionally if he didn't treat everyone critical of the system as some sort of Nazi Chud, libtards might also be pointing out how he's really just screwing the pooch instead of focusing on how he's got the Right Politics, guise.