Tabletop Community Watch

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
I wonder if the Tranch devs were always suicidally overconfident or their fanbase spurred them into buying their own hype.

It's not like GW started massive, it spent years building itself up from a small hobby to being in the big leagues. Only the logistic side is a massive nightmare (which is common to many Kickstarter failures), but they also try to have lore, rules and open models (sheer insanity for a studio without real profit yet).

Why not just do a video game? Far easier as a proof of concept, no logistics and far easier testing for mechanics.
 
I wonder if the Tranch devs were always suicidally overconfident or their fanbase spurred them into buying their own hype.

It's not like GW started massive, it spent years building itself up from a small hobby to being in the big leagues. Only the logistic side is a massive nightmare (which is common to many Kickstarter failures), but they also try to have lore, rules and open models (sheer insanity for a studio without real profit yet).

Why not just do a video game? Far easier as a proof of concept, no logistics and far easier testing for mechanics.
On paper what they asked for wasn't a big deal, the rules were always going to be free and for what it was worth, the STL lines were already done, the rules were close to complete and in a perfectly serviceable beta. And OnlyGames while always unreliable, probably would've handled a userbase of their initial asking goal (66k). Perfectly suitable for a print run and boutique minis that could later be made to order instead. All of their issues stem from an unprecedented rise in popularity and the resulting funding. Coupled with the extreme incompetence of people who just seemingly can't handle the sheer scale of it now
 
On paper what they asked for wasn't a big deal, the rules were always going to be free and for what it was worth, the STL lines were already done, the rules were close to complete and in a perfectly serviceable beta. And OnlyGames while always unreliable, probably would've handled a userbase of their initial asking goal (66k). Perfectly suitable for a print run and boutique minis that could later be made to order instead. All of their issues stem from an unprecedented rise in popularity and the resulting funding. Coupled with the extreme incompetence of people who just seemingly can't handle the sheer scale of it now
As long as they planned to compete with GW they were doomed to fail, it's the equivalent of launching an IP with the intention of it being multimedia rather than giving it a foothold in some niche and expanding it from there.

Going with both 3D model support and logistics is the worst of both worlds since now the whales will print their models while they need to sort up the logistics for randos dipping in.

There are 20+ warbands in the game, why not start it with more manageable 4 unique ones and slowly add more once you see how the meta evolves?

Why have any sort of social media presence when it will inevitably fall into political cannibalisation? Also why the fuck go against right wingers when the whole Crusade shtick is their meme?

Also from what I read the plot is shit, grimderp that even worse than 40k, since it at least had the scale to back up the ridiculousness.
 
As long as they planned to compete with GW they were doomed to fail, it's the equivalent of launching an IP with the intention of it being multimedia rather than giving it a foothold in some niche and expanding it from there.

Going with both 3D model support and logistics is the worst of both worlds since now the whales will print their models while they need to sort up the logistics for randos dipping in.

There are 20+ warbands in the game, why not start it with more manageable 4 unique ones and slowly add more once you see how the meta evolves?

Why have any sort of social media presence when it will inevitably fall into political cannibalisation? Also why the fuck go against right wingers when the whole Crusade shtick is their meme?

Also from what I read the plot is shit, grimderp that even worse than 40k, since it at least had the scale to back up the ridiculousness.
Mantic, unless I'm mistaken, didn't make a big show of it, even though they basically are trying to profit in the same niche. They just offered a more affordable product with a decent ruleset and some good models. They aren't snorting coke off of hookers like GW does, but they're able to stay in the game and hey, even scored the Halo IP. Totally Not a Shill.
 
Why have any sort of social media presence when it will inevitably fall into political cannibalisation? Also why the fuck go against right wingers when the whole Crusade shtick is their meme?
Social media is essential marketing these days. You keep it neutral and make sure your community manager isn't a sperg.
Mantic, unless I'm mistaken, didn't make a big show of it, even though they basically are trying to profit in the same niche. They just offered a more affordable product with a decent ruleset and some good models. They aren't snorting coke off of hookers like GW does, but they're able to stay in the game and hey, even scored the Halo IP. Totally Not a Shill.
Mantic is GW. So are Warlord games and every other major miniature company around Nottingham. They're all part of the same boys club and trade staff around with each other constantly. Rick Priestly and Alessio Cavatore have designed every major wargame in the industry between them. Kings of War (AC), LOTR (both), Warhammer (RP) and Bolt action (both).

A lot of companies get created once they get frustrated with how big GW is and how much stress it is to run something at that scale. They spin off into smaller off shoots with a few other ex-GW staff and keep on doing more or less the same thing. Mantic was ex-GW staff making affordable GW alternatives, then putting their own system over it (how the original warhammer came about). Mantic got lucky when GW killed Old world and picked up the ex-GW fanbase. Making Mantic ex-GW games played by ex-GW fans run by ex-GW designers and staff.

Not saying that's a bad thing. It's just very strange to call them GW competitiors when it's the same people doing the same things under slightly differet banners.
 
Social media is essential marketing these days. You keep it neutral and make sure your community manager isn't a sperg.

Mantic is GW. So are Warlord games and every other major miniature company around Nottingham. They're all part of the same boys club and trade staff around with each other constantly. Rick Priestly and Alessio Cavatore have designed every major wargame in the industry between them. Kings of War (AC), LOTR (both), Warhammer (RP) and Bolt action (both).

A lot of companies get created once they get frustrated with how big GW is and how much stress it is to run something at that scale. They spin off into smaller off shoots with a few other ex-GW staff and keep on doing more or less the same thing. Mantic was ex-GW staff making affordable GW alternatives, then putting their own system over it (how the original warhammer came about). Mantic got lucky when GW killed Old world and picked up the ex-GW fanbase. Making Mantic ex-GW games played by ex-GW fans run by ex-GW designers and staff.

Not saying that's a bad thing. It's just very strange to call them GW competitiors when it's the same people doing the same things under slightly differet banners.
A cartel then? That's...depressing to think about. :(
 
Not really a cartel. It's just the industry isn't very big and a lot of essential resources are in Nottingham. There's loads of smaller companies making good models in their garages and you can easily buy from them but they aren't mass producing plastics.
I know. Hell, even built two decent killteams out of garage printer dealers. The ogryns I got have more personality than GW's, I dare say.
 
Also from what I read the plot is shit, grimderp that even worse than 40k, since it at least had the scale to back up the ridiculousness.
I do believe the grimderp lore was one of the biggest selling points. Basically "Hey! Hate how much 40k aint grimderp anymore? Well, we got this cool setting for ya! When 40k used to be grimderp and awesome!"
 
As long as they planned to compete with GW they were doomed to fail, it's the equivalent of launching an IP with the intention of it being multimedia rather than giving it a foothold in some niche and expanding it from there.

Going with both 3D model support and logistics is the worst of both worlds since now the whales will print their models while they need to sort up the logistics for randos dipping in.

There are 20+ warbands in the game, why not start it with more manageable 4 unique ones and slowly add more once you see how the meta evolves?

Why have any sort of social media presence when it will inevitably fall into political cannibalisation? Also why the fuck go against right wingers when the whole Crusade shtick is their meme?

Also from what I read the plot is shit, grimderp that even worse than 40k, since it at least had the scale to back up the ridiculousness.
It would also make sense to start as a rpg or small skirmish game and slowly build up. Games Workshop started out as making minis for D&D. They made their own game but increased the scale to incentivize sales. A war game would need more models than a rpg so the evolution was natural.

A lot of the other companies aren’t directly competing with Games Workshop but fill a niche they won’t or can’t. Mantic makes cheap miniatures and intentionally aims at horde armies to shake things up or to provide cannon fodder. Mantic also aims at games or armies that were once supported but aren’t currently and they’ll pick up a lot of well known ips that can’t be bothered to make their own tabletop games like Halo, Walking Dead, Mars Attacks!, etc.

Wargames Atlantic covers a lot of niche fantasy and Sci-fi units. Wanting some catachan but don’t like the ancient sculpts because you have no taste? They got you. Need some Imperial Ogres? They have you covered. They sell minis that could fit into an existing Warhammer collection without standing out too much.

Max Mini provides a lot of value in a single box. If you’re looking to get an army of halflings in fantasy, ratings in sci-fi, or just need more orcs or goblins, you can just buy one of their army boxes and you are good to go. They don’t sell individual units but they provide a large coverage of minis for cheap and a lot of their sculpts are similar, hence they have multiple variations of halfling armies.

A lot of smaller mini producers focus on legacy armies that GW doesn’t support. The aforementioned Mantic did the space dwarves before squats were unsquatted. Victoria miniatures focuses on imperial guard factions that aren’t supported fully and likely never will. There’s too many regiments and realistically games workshop can’t do all of them. A lot of creators on Etsy focus on bits, redesigning unpopular molds, or factions that aren’t fully supported.

Trench Crusade bit off more than they could chew. Hype and marketing can only take you so far. It can’t will an IP into existence. Without project management, without proper supply chains, it was doomed. They likely know the phrase “amateurs talk tactics, but professionals study logistics” but it’s easier said than done. In some ways starting out as a project that got hyped made it harder to get the little things they needed to do first correctly. They might have been better off not getting as much excitement and hype and starting out as a small group of dedicated autists that slowly grew the IP, the infrastructure, and the hobby. Either as a small skirmish game or an rpg. I can’t help but see some of the parallels in other movements that spontaneously popped into existence but fizzled out. In another time and era these are the kinds of autists that would’ve ended up getting their asses handed to them in the Pauper’s Crusade or a peasant revolt that went nowhere. There are multiple miniature producing companies that specialize in working in other ips and for smaller companies in the US, UK, etc.
 
Last edited:
I do believe the grimderp lore was one of the biggest selling points. Basically "Hey! Hate how much 40k aint grimderp anymore? Well, we got this cool setting for ya! When 40k used to be grimderp and awesome!"
Issue it's marketed towards Reddit Edgy - "God doesn't exist, everything is suffering, millions die daily for the war effort (despite the war going for centuries, and Hell didn't advance in any way) but don't you dare have rape or say mean things about Aztecs or Muslims".

In another time and era these are the kinds of autists that would’ve ended up getting their asses handed to them in the Pauper’s Crusade or a peasant revolt that went nowhere. There are multiple miniature producing companies that specialize in working in other ips and for smaller companies in the US, UK, etc.
Cooperating with a small company for model production is another insane act. They can always limit it to few years so they can take over production once they get a foothold.
 
There are 20+ warbands in the game, why not start it with more manageable 4 unique ones and slowly add more once you see how the meta evolves?
They copied Mordheim, simple as, the base human faction on it had 3 warband archetypes at the start, all flavours of the mercs. While warbands with archetypes were seemingly uncommon at a glance (the only other are the not Spanish who are also just humans with nations) On paper its also an easy way to setup unique conversions since all you would need are creative use of bits of upgrade sprues with the same base sculpts
Then they threw all that out the window to get the super speciul snowflake Maximilian Prussians with their hag female captain with an executioner sword. Guess they didn't want the Marcher guys to hog the Prussian special snowflake Dieselpunk market
 
Last edited:
Cooperating with a small company for model production is another insane act. They can always limit it to few years so they can take over production once they get a foothold.
There’s some b2b model kit companies that specialize in producing miniatures for smaller ips. That’s what I meant by small, I phrased it poorly. Trenchworx was the company I was thinking of specifically:

There’s this other video I thought was fascinating:

But basically they should’ve invested in getting professionals to do the sculpts as others have said. They were too chaotic and it was inevitably going to crash.
 
There’s some b2b model kit companies that specialize in producing miniatures for smaller ips. That’s what I meant by small, I phrased it poorly. Trenchworx was the company I was thinking of specifically:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wDlbH3T91Nk
There’s this other video I thought was fascinating:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_wUyehmXkfs
But basically they should’ve invested in getting professionals to do the sculpts as others have said. They were too chaotic and it was inevitably going to crash.
I did a typo, I meant Not Cooperating was insane.

They probably should have made a Tabletop Simulator esque game using their 3D model sculpts built in into it. That way any need to deal with logistics is limited to kickstarter whales.
 
I did a typo, I meant Not Cooperating was insane.

They probably should have made a Tabletop Simulator esque game using their 3D model sculpts built in into it. That way any need to deal with logistics is limited to kickstarter whales.
I think literal tabletop sims don't seem to have much traction, it maybe would've worked since a vidya would be less investment for virtue signaling instead of actual physical minis you have to paint.
But give it a year or two and there's provably a dime a dozen games who would've been proud to say that they were inspired by it but probably won't reveal it for various reasons, the lazy grimdark ala Scorn sounds ripe for ripoffs
 
I think literal tabletop sims don't seem to have much traction, it maybe would've worked since a vidya would be less investment for virtue signaling instead of actual physical minis you have to paint.
But give it a year or two and there's provably a dime a dozen games who would've been proud to say that they were inspired by it but probably won't reveal it for various reasons, the lazy grimdark ala Scorn sounds ripe for ripoffs
The easiest thing would be to develop a browser game or app game. Not like you need a lot to do an xcom clone. Even Privateer press managed to do that (despite the game sucking balls and not being like the original reveal trailer).


What we got.

These are both for the tactics game. I can't find the original 3rd person action game where you played as Stryker. Names too generic.
 
These are both for the tactics game. I can't find the original 3rd person action game where you played as Stryker. Names too generic.
You sure you aren't thinking of the original game that the E3 trailer you linked was for? There was a much longer gameplay video of it from Gencon the year before(absolutely shit quality, but what can you do)

Changing to be a halfassed tactics/x-com/rts thing that wasn't a 1:1 clone of the tabletop game was fucking stupid. At least with a third person action game if it was "mid" people could at least see that it visually looked interesting and was tied to an existing IP and games. And being a 1:1 clone risks cannibalizing tabletop sales. By PP not doing a 1:1 game, they had what was a clunky to control mess(shit you can do on tabletop by moving your hands and just picking shit up takes multiple clicks, multiple interfaces, etc.), and of course having people complain about the differences from the tabletop in addition to simply being a shitty game.

TC trying to go that route to start risks the same cannibalization of tabletop sales, risks it's initial launch being a shit videogame, with no existing narrative to work with(at least warmachine had that), and wouldn't have a decent tabletop game to fall back on(like warmachine did at the time).

Palladium?
Maybe? They were at least smart enough to make sure their contract for TMNT allowed future publishing of the content after the license itself to make new content for it had lapsed. But I guess you do have to wonder how the hell they've managed to continue being a company for the past 20+ years.

edit:
So these guys comment that it's interesting their prior video talking about trench crusade(and still expressing opinions about TC that they've had since the launch of their channel) got so many more views(something like 6x their norm), but this is a general video about "that one guy in the shop 3d printing stuff for everyone" and how that person needs to get the boot because they're a non-customer just showing up to occupy space and occasionally buy some low margin snacks or sodas. Basically the same type of people that the trench crusade crowd are.

It's always been kind of funny seeing people in the "3d printing community" talk about how it benefits the local stores because you're printing minis and then... something? But these guys just point out in plain English how they aren't really a benefit and can be a drain and as a business how to talk to them to get them to quit their shit or just leave. Once again hammering the point that you can't jusy rely on kickstarters and 3d printing to sell product if you want to actually grow because the places where people play need a reason to be willing to promote it and not just find a way to discourage it or even just kick people out of their community.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom