Tabletop Community Watch

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You sure you aren't thinking of the original game that the E3 trailer you linked was for? There was a much longer gameplay video of it from Gencon the year before(absolutely shit quality, but what can you do)
That's it. Thank you. I'm still sad we never got it.
So these guys comment that it's interesting their prior video talking about trench crusade(and still expressing opinions about TC that they've had since the launch of their channel) got so many more views(something like 6x their norm), but this is a general video about "that one guy in the shop 3d printing stuff for everyone" and how that person needs to get the boot because they're a non-customer just showing up to occupy space and occasionally buy some low margin snacks or sodas. Basically the same type of people that the trench crusade crowd are.
Usually a group will have 1 3D print guy who supplies everyone around them. It will harm sales in some ways but help in others. People who have a lot of models need a lot of paint, basing material etc. So there is ways to make money from 3d printers.
It's always been kind of funny seeing people in the "3d printing community" talk about how it benefits the local stores because you're printing minis and then... something? But these guys just point out in plain English how they aren't really a benefit and can be a drain and as a business how to talk to them to get them to quit their shit or just leave. Once again hammering the point that you can't jusy rely on kickstarters and 3d printing to sell product if you want to actually grow because the places where people play need a reason to be willing to promote it and not just find a way to discourage it or even just kick people out of their community.
You're right on Trench crusade needing to be in shops to prosper but GW is so big it's hard to fit anything else. GW shelf sizes are just crazy and always full with more coming. I hope OPR gets some proper store space but I think it will get shoved into the board games and GW will have the full wall of new releases in front of it.

Youtube has fully turned on Tranny Crusade. I don't watch anything TC related and I have had 4 anti-TC videos recommended to me in the last 48 hours.
 
Usually a group will have 1 3D print guy who supplies everyone around them. It will harm sales in some ways but help in others. People who have a lot of models need a lot of paint, basing material etc. So there is ways to make money from 3d printers.
I know of some people like that at local stores. Most of the time it's usually just printing bits(helmeted heads, different looking weapons, effect bits, crap like that) rather than "hey, I'll print you a whole army for a bottle of resin"(also running events for the store in at least one case helps with this as well, including being someone who volunteers to do demo games for people). And yes some people will still buy hobby supplies at the store, but not all of them do in the first place. There's a difference, and store owners/staff can spot that among regular customers especially with POS systems where they can just look it up.

Youtube has fully turned on Tranny Crusade. I don't watch anything TC related and I have had 4 anti-TC videos recommended to me in the last 48 hours.
I don't watch TC shit either positive or negative, but it's certainly refreshing to see people waking the fuck up about it and having a realistic perspective on what it actually is rather than some nonsense hopes and dreams.
 
https://www.trenchcrusade.com/news/...hqAp-7xJvP6InMJK2__aem_Eikt46_elo6r1PKWE4JXZQ they just post this just now. The living rules where every April and October they'll hold a rules review for Trench Crusade.
Ok, that's both interesting and hilarious. People bitch about GW actually updating rules because they only play maybe once a year, and now TC wants to update the rules semi-annually like how GW was doing it in 9th? That's some funny shit. have to wait a few hours for the TC fans to wake up at noon and post on reddit to see what they really think about it though.
 
Ok, that's both interesting and hilarious. People bitch about GW actually updating rules because they only play maybe once a year, and now TC wants to update the rules semi-annually like how GW was doing it in 9th? That's some funny shit. have to wait a few hours for the TC fans to wake up at noon and post on reddit to see what they really think about it though.
>the rulebook people were hyping was already terribly made, and with long ass delivery times
>now it will be Errata-ed to fuck atleast twice a year
Lol, Lmao. But at the rate TC is going, I'll give it like 4 errata updates before it suffers a catastrophic collapse because FF ordered a gigantic trans rights heretic legionaire resin print from Only games for 2 million dollars (it came with half its body fused into its asshole)
 
Ok, that's both interesting and hilarious. People bitch about GW actually updating rules because they only play maybe once a year, and now TC wants to update the rules semi-annually like how GW was doing it in 9th? That's some funny shit. have to wait a few hours for the TC fans to wake up at noon and post on reddit to see what they really think about it though.
People are getting sick of living rulebooks because our hobby takes time. How fast can you paint a new unit or army? If you invest a month, or two to paint a really nice unit and it gets nerfed why did you bother? It's not just that they don't play often, it's that units come and go almost weekly. By the time you get to play the army you want a rule change has happened and it's no longer the legal points limit.

Mantic got it right with their Clash of kings book system. Every year a new army is introduced and the old armies get rebalanced. You had a full year to work with and the balance changes were never that big. The worst was making a until no longer unlock special units, but that was the cure for under costed spam more than trying to ruin a list.
 
>the rulebook people were hyping was already terribly made, and with long ass delivery times
>now it will be Errata-ed to fuck atleast twice a year
Lol, Lmao. But at the rate TC is going, I'll give it like 4 errata updates before it suffers a catastrophic collapse because FF ordered a gigantic trans rights heretic legionaire resin print from Only games for 2 million dollars (it came with half its body fused into its asshole)
They already did a version update for the rules making the printed book irrelevant before people even got their hands on it. I said as much before, but the core book should have been left to be the stable version for at least a year before a major revision to at least get some people playing the game.

People are getting sick of living rulebooks because our hobby takes time. How fast can you paint a new unit or army? If you invest a month, or two to paint a really nice unit and it gets nerfed why did you bother? It's not just that they don't play often, it's that units come and go almost weekly. By the time you get to play the army you want a rule change has happened and it's no longer the legal points limit.

Mantic got it right with their Clash of kings book system. Every year a new army is introduced and the old armies get rebalanced. You had a full year to work with and the balance changes were never that big. The worst was making a until no longer unlock special units, but that was the cure for under costed spam more than trying to ruin a list.
If you've already got an army and want to get a couple new units, it's not the same as replacing an entire army. In the case of TC, it's a couple of individual models so even less of an issue. If you're replacing your entire army because it's top tournament meta win rate went from 56% to 43%, you'd be a fool and probably weren't even part of the top level of players where that would matter anyway. Not having updates at all for a player vs player game where otherwise your chance at victory is based entirely on which army you threw money at for a game is fucking cancer and previous editions were full of that with zero attempt to stop it sometimes going years at a time before armies would even get looked at for anything resembling a decent play experience without relying on a bunch of gentleman's agreements and house rules to keep someone from bringing some unit combo of total cancer to the game store for years at a time.

The book thing I find hilarious because it's yet another fuck up on the part of Factory Fortress regarding managing their game. Updating things is one thing, making the physical book that people wanted for... reasons, and then invalidating it before they even get it assuming it even showed up without being destroyed during shipping or left the publisher without issues(pages upside down, stuck together, backwards, etc.) is insane.
 
If you've already got an army and want to get a couple new units, it's not the same as replacing an entire army.
Small rule changes can invalidate an army. Even small points cost changes can make your list unusable. If your core units go up 10 points you're now 50 points over what you should be at. And maybe you need those core units to get your other units and it snowballs.

It's not about tournament play. Those guys will just buy a new army, speed paint it in a week and be done. It's usually more casual players who keep getting rug pulled when they build for January's rules and February's rules fuck them over.

Mantic got it right with once a year universal updates and a new edition every 4 to 5 years. Every army got rebalanced at the same time. So no one is left behind unless intentionally left before (side lists the new edition rolled into the main list).
Wait, people actually paint thier minis and don't just talk about it? Yeah right.
No. I was being sarcastic.
 
Wait, people actually paint thier minis and don't just talk about it? Yeah right.
to be slightly fair, its not like TC is an army wide game where you paint 10-20 dudes for a very small part of the army, you can get away with under 10 human sized models that are simpler to paint, even the reddit showcases competent (but still very overrated) paintjobs that could indicate an okay amount of interest in it. It helps that people just take shortcuts like speedpaints and grimdark tub washes for the desired looks the TC fandom often overvalues (i.e just dunking their minis in a home-made or even bought tub wash from AP or vallejo)
 
It's always been kind of funny seeing people in the "3d printing community" talk about how it benefits the local stores because you're printing minis and then... something?
It reminds me of of people pirating games and talking how it's actually good for gaming. It's just a blatant lie to make yourself feel good about doing something that, if enough people do it, will kill your hobby.

Like those people should at least be honest.
 
Small rule changes can invalidate an army. Even small points cost changes can make your list unusable. If your core units go up 10 points you're now 50 points over what you should be at. And maybe you need those core units to get your other units and it snowballs.

It's not about tournament play. Those guys will just buy a new army, speed paint it in a week and be done. It's usually more casual players who keep getting rug pulled when they build for January's rules and February's rules fuck them over.
You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with tournament play.

Do you really only ever build "an army" of exactly whatever the points cap is? That's weird, and boring. You build a 2000 point army for 40k and never intend to change anything? 1000 points for a star wars legion army? Even without rules updates, just simply other players in your area changing up what they're taking can "invalidate" your army making it effectively useless. Locals decide to start taking more vehicles to games than your "I'm at the maximum cap for 1 standard army" can handle and what, you don't want to get some anti tank units to swap in and deal with it?

If you have been playing whatever game for a significant amount of time and don't fall into the weird trap of deciding to never paint another model for an army again or whatever, then as I said you'll likely only need to acquire(buy, print, whatever) and swap out a couple of units. In this case because it's individual models and well under 20 total for Trench Crusade(and most skirmish games) that's effectively a non-issue. If you know the points updates are 2 or 4 times a year, oh no you'll have to paint 1 different guy. If you've been doing this long enough, you may even already have the stuff to swap out due to edition changes, balance updates, or simply swapping things around in your list so you aren't literally playing the same set of models for years at a time.

And specific to Trench Crusade, 99% of the paintjobs I ever see in youtube thumbnails, the occasional reddit post, the few times I've glanced through their reddit, look like shit anyway. It's a couple of base coats, then a wash or AK streaking grime or whatever other acrylic or oil wash, and maybe some splatters of blood. These people spend minutes on a single mini for an army of 10 guys with the latest slap sponge chop technique or whatever and it's horrendous.

edit: I just went to the TC reddit, and like I thought most of it is just base colors and covered in grime. There's a few clean metallic paint jobs, but then no shading on the metallics just the occasional silver highlight on gold that always makes it look like fake plated jewelry that's worn down. This is one of the rare decent paintjobs, especially for being an entire warband and not just one model

Most of the people there are following the grimdark = grimedark bit where everything just needs to be covered in filth at all times.
 
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Do you really only ever build "an army" of exactly whatever the points cap is? That's weird, and boring. You build a 2000 point army for 40k and never intend to change anything? 1000 points for a star wars legion army? Even without rules updates, just simply other players in your area changing up what they're taking can "invalidate" your army making it effectively useless. Locals decide to start taking more vehicles to games than your "I'm at the maximum cap for 1 standard army" can handle and what, you don't want to get some anti tank units to swap in and deal with it?
You can have extra units and still get fucked by rules changes. Lots of systems are using Core/Battalion and then things that build off of them. If a unit goes from unlimited to 1-2 you can lose more than you have painted spare. And the spare stuff might have no synergy with what's left legal.

I've just gone through an edition change and 1 unit I used to love using doesn't exist any more. It's just gone.
 
You can have extra units and still get fucked by rules changes. Lots of systems are using Core/Battalion and then things that build off of them. If a unit goes from unlimited to 1-2 you can lose more than you have painted spare. And the spare stuff might have no synergy with what's left legal.

I've just gone through an edition change and 1 unit I used to love using doesn't exist any more. It's just gone.
I played warmachine, my entire army got deleted in the edition change to mk4, I've been there. But if we're talking a few units? Who cares? Like I said, you get a couple more and it's simply not an issue if you've been doing this any length of time unless you're an autist that decided they're going to get exactly one set of models and never change for any reason even if everyone in the local area swapped to stuff that just curb stomps your army without rules changes. It's boring.

And again, we're talking about TC. You swap 1 or 2 individual models in, big deal.
 
I played warmachine, my entire army got deleted in the edition change to mk4, I've been there. But if we're talking a few units? Who cares? Like I said, you get a couple more and it's simply not an issue if you've been doing this any length of time unless you're an autist that decided they're going to get exactly one set of models and never change for any reason even if everyone in the local area swapped to stuff that just curb stomps your army without rules changes. It's boring.

And again, we're talking about TC. You swap 1 or 2 individual models in, big deal.
Your talking skirmish. I'm talking rank and flank. One unit is the size of your entire army.

Warmachine at least brought them back. I heard it's starting to do well again but I don't know if it's just youtube bullshit or not.
 
Your talking skirmish. I'm talking rank and flank. One unit is the size of your entire army.

Warmachine at least brought them back. I heard it's starting to do well again but I don't know if it's just youtube bullshit or not.
Warmachine kind of added some armies back as their legends equivalent with no consideration for future balance, and has been just completely revamping others. Menoth is now on their upcoming list, there's maybe 3 units from Khador that carry over to the new stuff for that. SFG has at least made a decent push for retail while still doing their STL thing, and there's people trying to hype it up but I don't see it "back" yet as it does mostly but not entirely appear to be youtube bullshit, but I'm probably never going to touch it again.

Also, rank and flank doesn't matter either. Again, you just get the couple units difference if you didn't already have them due to just swapping shit around so you aren't playing the same list for years at a time. Oh no, you changed out a half dozen cavalry models for 20 archers and maybe had to tweak something else. And then years later if something needs to be changed or you're just bored.. you've still got stuff to swap around. I really do not understand the "this is my list and I'm never changing it" mentality, at best it's just boring. Usually it's just points changes or something else happens and you'll need to shuffle things around anyway. At worst... yeah you'll have to throw the whole thing out because the company folded and no one is playing a dead game a decade later and you can't just use the models in a different game for whatever reason(scale, weird theming issues, etc. assuming you couldn't just re-base them).

edit: Getting back to the original point. Factory Fortress should have just printed an artbook. It's an art project with a dice mechanic thrown at it afterall. Make something that can sit on a coffee table. Printing hard copy rulebooks in 2025(now 2026) is silly but if you're going to do it at least make sure there's some span of time for the community to actually develop before invalidating it.
 
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I wonder how expensive it would be to make an e-ink reader for your rule book and have a way to update it remotely. Just make a cheap Kindle-like device with an update method and now you can do frequent updates while not having to worry about outdated books and shit.
 
I wonder how expensive it would be to make an e-ink reader for your rule book and have a way to update it remotely. Just make a cheap Kindle-like device with an update method and now you can do frequent updates while not having to worry about outdated books and shit.
Assuming they actually update the main document and not just have a separate 20 page errata(looking at you GW) people could just get their own and load the PDF? Pick whatever size they want instead of what the vendor chooses to go with(and then has to source, distribute, find a replacement model if necessary down the road because their vendor quit making the version used, provide technical and warranty support for, and so on).
 
Assuming they actually update the main document and not just have a separate 20 page errata(looking at you GW) people could just get their own and load the PDF? Pick whatever size they want instead of what the vendor chooses to go with(and then has to source, distribute, find a replacement model if necessary down the road because their vendor quit making the version used, provide technical and warranty support for, and so on).
Yeah obviously this is possible but the e-reader idea is a random thought that came to mind just now.
 
I really do not understand the "this is my list and I'm never changing it" mentality, at best it's just boring.
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If it's good enough for Stillman, it's good enough for everyone else, apparently, regardless of ruleset and even system. Who would possibly collect more than the bare minimum?
 
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