Tabletop Community Watch

[The tired cat]

It reminds me of of people pirating games and talking how it's actually good for gaming. It's just a blatant lie to make yourself feel good about doing something that, if enough people do it, will kill your hobby.

Like those people should at least be honest.

I've never heard anyone say that piraiting was good for gaming. I think you're confusing it with that "piraiting doesn't do as much damage to gaming", which one could debate on that whole concept, especially when it's games that aren't possible to obtain on digital storefronts, while copies on Ebay cost an arm'n'leg.

 

[p1138]

I've never heard anyone say that piraiting was good for gaming. I think you're confusing it with that "piraiting doesn't do as much damage to gaming", which one could debate on that whole concept, especially when it's games that aren't possible to obtain on digital storefronts, while copies on Ebay cost an arm'n'leg.

I've seen it brought up regarding cracking Denuvo for people closer to the middle of the road or lower end of specs on PC because there is a performance hit from Denuvo. Of course the numbers of people that bother to pirate games because of that are incredibly small, even smaller just for the performance gains that aren't always to be had but actually bought it.

The Warhammer community (or, at least, the parts that actually play the game more than once an edition) are by and large pretty happy with quarterly updates, but that's a big game with a constant stream of tournament data. It seems either optimistic to assume that Trench Crusade will see enough play to really warrant that or, as you said, betrays a complete lack of confidence in their ruleset.

It absolutely shouldn't have needed it considering some of the factions are only just recently even playable by their larger whales, with some still not having their shit yet or only just recently due to FF's dumb shipping schedule. As far as I'm aware they haven't even held a narrative event or anything at a convention yet either, so they've got basically no data other than demo games and people posting on discord or reddit about shit.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I've never heard anyone say that piraiting was good for gaming. I think you're confusing it with that "piraiting doesn't do as much damage to gaming", which one could debate on that whole concept, especially when it's games that aren't possible to obtain on digital storefronts, while copies on Ebay cost an arm'n'leg.

The argument is that people use pirating as a demo and then buy the game if it's good, which is completely nonsensical, especially once Steam started with their refund policy.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Just in my mind, for a mini wargame, I would have factions with a list of set formations (i.e. Dwarven armies always have 5 units of hammertroops and 1 units of crossbowmen), and then - borrowing from real life - a list of mercenary units your commander might hire to make it so your army is different and give some options for more varied play.
So the main armies would be changed rarely if ever, and if changed it'd be more like "here is a dwarven army with more ranged units", but the mercenary units would see more regular shakeups and additions.

This is basically how I see it as well. If you're dwarves you want some shield and hammer guys with a cannon. If you're a wood elf player you want your archers and dryads. You sub in a bolt thrower or a dragon depending on the points size. But your core stays the same and you want the rules to stay the same. Having to recheck your sheet every time you do something bogs the game down.

The Warhammer community (or, at least, the parts that actually play the game more than once an edition) are by and large pretty happy with quarterly updates, but that's a big game with a constant stream of tournament data. It seems either optimistic to assume that Trench Crusade will see enough play to really warrant that or, as you said, betrays a complete lack of confidence in their ruleset.

I've seen a lot of people quit GW games and go back to older editions because the rules change too much. They can't keep up with all the changes and get tired of gotcha moments.

I've never heard anyone say that piraiting was good for gaming. I think you're confusing it with that "piraiting doesn't do as much damage to gaming", which one could debate on that whole concept, especially when it's games that aren't possible to obtain on digital storefronts, while copies on Ebay cost an arm'n'leg.

Pirating isn't a major money loss for the gaming industry. When you're selling 10 billion copies of CoD a year there's not a lot of care for piracy.

The argument is that people use pirating as a demo and then buy the game if it's good, which is completely nonsensical, especially once Steam started with their refund policy.

It's not nonsensical. It's something I do as well. Steam refund policy isn't air tight. You can get told no. The game can not shut down properly and you go over the 2 hour limit. You might want to buy from a (legal) key seller because they're cheaper than Steam and then you can't refund.

I do use piracy as a demo. I buy games I think are worth buying. Last month I bought 2 games I pirated because I wanted the cloud saves to change between devices. I wouldn't have bought either if I didn't get to pirate them.

 

[Martys_not_smarty]

Pirating isn't a major money loss for the gaming industry. When you're selling 10 billion copies of CoD a year there's not a lot of care for piracy.

There's a reason why whole regions of the world have the retail cost of some games at next to nothing like in Russia, $70 dollar games here are like $15 cause of piracy.

 

[Ghostse]

This is basically how I see it as well. If you're dwarves you want some shield and hammer guys with a cannon. If you're a wood elf player you want your archers and dryads. You sub in a bolt thrower or a dragon depending on the points size. But your core stays the same and you want the rules to stay the same. Having to recheck your sheet every time you do something bogs the game down.

In my mindgame, its not just "Dwarves have 4 melee units and 1 ranged", the standardized army would be "this many hammer units, and one cross bow unit", so some of your "mercenaries" would be pike-dwarves.

It would be like a Roman Legion. The usual legion is going to have a standard load out of Legionaires, and then auxilaries and mercenaries to fill out things like cavalry.

 

[CrunkLord420]

Intellectual property isn't real. Miniatures and paints are being sold at scam prices. Games Workshop, and pretty much the rest of the industry hates you. It's just sloppa consumerism and you're a bunch of sloppy pigs to them.

Download a PDF and order "proxies" off AliExpress. Oh no, Games Workshop will have to lay off their bloated staff. It'll take 20 years to move the plot forward instead of 10! What about 11th edition? 12, 13? THE STREAMLINING AND SLOPPAFICTATION MUST CONTINUE. People will have to burn their armies as the Astronomican at Games Workshop goes dim from lack of paypigs being sacrificed to the ESG Throne.

The fans own Warhammer 40k as much as anyone at Games Workshop at this point. Enter the "extended universe". Not even Games Workshop is confident enough in their writing to call anything canon, they're basically writing their own fan fiction.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

In some interesting news. GW are adding femcodes to the miniature game. And using They/Them pronouns for Eldar (About time the Eldar players got representation on the table).

But in actual good news. P3 paints are coming back and they're in dropped bottles. They had some great colours and we can replace our old dried out ones now.. If we can find a shop that stops Warmachine. And doesn't already have 4 different brands of paint for sale.

 

[Sunflower Samurai]

Intellectual property isn't real. Miniatures and paints are being sold at scam prices. Games Workshop, and pretty much the rest of the industry hates you. It's just sloppa consumerism and you're a bunch of sloppy pigs to them.

Download a PDF and order "proxies" off AliExpress. Oh no, Games Workshop will have to lay off their bloated staff. It'll take 20 years to move the plot forward instead of 10! What about 11th edition? 12, 13? THE STREAMLINING AND SLOPPAFICTATION MUST CONTINUE. People will have to burn their armies as the Astronomican at Games Workshop goes dim from lack of paypigs being sacrificed to the ESG Throne.

The fans own Warhammer 40k as much as anyone at Games Workshop at this point. Enter the "extended universe". Not even Games Workshop is confident enough in their writing to call anything canon, they're basically writing their own fan fiction.

Preach my nigga, I've taken the piracy and recast pill for anything GW and at best supported OPR (once) just because I was too lazy to find their books on scribd, maybe I'll just go for historicals, warlord and perry minis are decently priced and plentiful.

 

[Ghostse]

The argument is that people use pirating as a demo and then buy the game if it's good, which is completely nonsensical, especially once Steam started with their refund policy.

You are missing the MP3 argument.

Despite the music industry kicking and screaming about Napster, while it was in business with free downloadable music Music industry profits rose more than other time since its founding. The reason was by making the product free, they attracted the largest potential audience and allowed people to discover bands outside of the Top 40 that might be their jam.
This translated into increased ticket sales and increased album sales, because it was learned that while a minority might abuse the system for free shit, most people are willing to buy things they like to support them.

You also have a "Coke on campus" effect; Coca-cola will do everything possible to be the only product on college campuses, giving out large payments and nearly subsidizing the product to be as cheap as possible. The reasoning is that college students are poor schlubs NOW, but in the future they will have jobs and be high earners. If you can capture their brainstem NOW and give them the product free for 4 years, you'll have them as a customer for the next 40.

In games, if you give people a low cost, low risk way to get into the game they'll take it. I would have had much more difficulty recruiting for my 3.5 games if the 3.5 Hypertext SRD didn't exist. One of the biggest issues I have recruiting new people for 4e is no playable SRD exists. 5e, the latest audience D&D edition, has an SRD that puts the 3.5 SRD to shame in completeness.

The problem Tranch Crusade has is it is missing a critical piece: the ability for easily monetize fans and give fans the opportunity to show their support. You can't buy official minis in store easily.

GW's problem is the high barrier to entry. Sure they have army starters, but its like $150. They have Kill Team but that's still $50. The stores are generally absolute bastards aout proxies or other company's models; I don't get kicked out of a concert because I'm wearing another band's shirt.

You need to give an experience as good or better than the pirates give.

Going to videogames, the issue with game piracy is pirates have a better experience. No retarded DRM, no need to depend on the company's servers, and you also have a core of people you have pissed off so badly they'll do anything to not give game companies money.
Personally, I know a lot of people who - especially for smaller studios - will buy games after they pirate them to have them on steam.

 

[MazonLabs Recruitment Rep]

GW's problem is the high barrier to entry. Sure they have army starters, but its like $150. They have Kill Team but that's still $50. The stores are generally absolute bastards aout proxies or other company's models; I don't get kicked out of a concert because I'm wearing another band's shirt.

I've had a fantasy of walking into a GW store event with a trenchcoat lined with Army Painter brushes and craft paints, open it up and scream "OH YEA! THIS IS HAPPENING! YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE CHANNEL!"

 

[Sunflower Samurai]

I've had a fantasy of walking into a GW store event with a trenchcoat lined with Army Painter brushes and craft paints, open it up and scream "OH YEA! THIS IS HAPPENING! YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE CHANNEL!"

Go to your local guard fag and show them the WGA sci fi models, their choice of not-conscripts, not-cadians, not-vostroyans or not-Steel Legion and more at like a buck fifty a model instead of 5+

 

[p1138]

Going to videogames, the issue with game piracy is pirates have a better experience. No retarded DRM, no need to depend on the company's servers, and you also have a core of people you have pissed off so badly they'll do anything to not give game companies money.

As Gabe Newell pointed out, often times piracy is a service issue. Sure game piracy exists, but Steam does just fine because they provide a service for the mainstream that isn't shit. Yes music piracy still exists but nowhere near as many people bother today as they did in the days of Napster and other services because they can use Spotify for a few bucks a month and get access to 90% of the shit out there.

Movies and TV have gone backwards. Previously between Amazon and Netflix you could get 90% of the content out there with 2 subscriptions that were cheaper than cable. Now there's still an absolute fuck ton of movie and TV piracy because all of the production companies wanted to make all of the money instead of licensing content to another company. So instead of Netflix and Amazon we wound up with them plus Hulu, Vudu, Qubi, HBOmax, Disney+, ESPN, Peacock, etc. all asking $10-15 a month so suddenly it's not significantly cheaper than cable TV anymore.

GW manages to pull that last bit off entirely on their own by not simply having a high cost barrier to entry, but also requiring a $60 codex purchase per army in addition to the app subscription. They've seen increased subscriber numbers every year, but it's still a fraction of the customers buying shit from their retail website. Plenty of people would pay the sub if they could easily just look up their opponent's rules(or even have a way to share lists) within the app. The app seemed like it was going to replace the core rulebook, codex, 3 errata and FAQ docs, 2 narrative books, and 3 issues of White Dwarf you'd need to carry around for your army rules, but as a service it's still shit and that's why waha, newrecruit, 39k, etc. can all still exist.

 

[MazonLabs Recruitment Rep]

Go to your local guard fag and show them the WGA sci fi models, their choice of not-conscripts, not-cadians, not-vostroyans or not-Steel Legion and more at like a buck fifty a model instead of 5+

"MUWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Check it out, GW bootlicker! All female penal legion, and I can still afford to eat something other than cheddar cheese ramen! Put that in your codex an' smoke it"
(For real though, WGA's zombie apoc survivors and soldiers are next when I can convince myself I need to feed the plastic crack habit again)

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Personally, I know a lot of people who - especially for smaller studios - will buy games after they pirate them to have them on steam.

Indie games are often supported more because word of mouth through piracy. Someone recommended me a game last month, I don't like survival sims so I pirated it. Found out I could turn all the survival crap off and turn it into a open world version of Half-life 1. I had a great time playing it and bought it on Steam soon after.

GW fans will never turn to WGA until they completely give up on GW. They like that it's an expensive and premium brand. They're like niggers with shoes or women with handbags. It being expensive is part of the charm to them. They feel like they're getting a luxury. I was in the 40k thread and they genuinely couldn't understand that 28mm miniatures shouldn't have building instructions for basic infantry. Sprues needing numbers on them and printed instructions because they've cut to be difficult to sell as bits not to be fun to build. Trying to explain that a model should have all of it's parts together on the sprue or have all the same weapon types together so you have an "archer" bit or "command" bit fell on death ears. Apparently you're just retarded if you don't want to have to constantly check the sprue to make sure you get Leg 32B instead of Leg 33A when building models. Which will be next to each other while Leg 32A and 33B will be at opposite corners of the sprue.

 

[Enward Cullen]

I was in the 40k thread and they genuinely couldn't understand that 28mm miniatures shouldn't have building instructions for basic infantry. Sprues needing numbers on them and printed instructions because they've cut to be difficult to sell as bits not to be fun to build. Trying to explain that a model should have all of it's parts together on the sprue or have all the same weapon types together so you have an "archer" bit or "command" bit fell on death ears. Apparently you're just retarded if you don't want to have to constantly check the sprue to make sure you get Leg 32B instead of Leg 33A when building models. Which will be next to each other while Leg 32A and 33B will be at opposite corners of the sprue.

I refuse to believe that anyone enjoys assembling modern GW plastics. Compare the new and old Warriors of Rohan sculpts, for a modest improvement in sculpt quality you're going to end up spending more time assembling each individual warrior than painting them. Twenty years apart and yet still monopose with next to no options.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Why do they have face plates and helmets as single pieces? You're just going to end up losing one of the face plates on the carpet and take an hour to find the damn thing. Why are they like this? Why do they hate their customers so much they introduce problems for them?

 

[Big Nasty]

The new sprue is clearly optimized for the production process.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

The new sprue is clearly optimized for the production process.

That's not even true though. Look at how thick GW's sprues are compared to other companies and the parts aren't even that thick. They're not optimized because they don't need the "brick" injection paths no other company uses.

And look at the space between 68 and 69. What possible usage does that channel have on the sprue? You could take out 3 channels in that corner alone and still have full flow to the corner. Like every other company does.

 

[Brubby Two]

Don't know if this was talked about anywhere but Archon had an AmA for Starcraft today. They do show some new stuff off.