Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Ghostse]

It's arguably built into the implied setting. See here.

4e's setting is explicitly post-Cataclysmic despite not having any domain play baked in. Or really, reasonably accessible. Sort of like vanilla pathfinder, its fantasy supersheroes. You might have the Hall of Justice Murderhobo but no realm.

But also, this is the most zoomer take I've ever seen. There isn't a need to things to be post-apocalyptic because the world isn't fully discovered or occupied. There's no live streamed 8K video of the globe 24/7, probably 90+% of the world is "Here there be dragons (literally the guy trying to map was eaten by a dragon)" so there is significant wilderness areas on the borders for the players to wander into and say "This is mine now".
Or, I know everyone is a complete pussy, that area might be claimed by someone but you literally do not give a fuck, you want it and its your's now. There is no ICC or WTO court to settle these things, you settle these disputes with the sword (or with magic missile as the case may be).

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Bit random complaint out of nowhere, but; I think what I kinda hate the most about DnD 5e's race selection - aside from most of the choices being extremely dull - is the lack of proper balancing.

Case in point: the Aarakocra. Was considering making them my new main race, but the built-in Flight results in them getting banned from a lot of tables. What's spectacularly shitty is that it would be fairly easy to balance if WOTC really gave a shit: make Flight only usable once every long rest, or do what my group does and make the ability only available at a later level. You know, make it something that you have to earn/work for; just getting handed an overpowered ability tends to take away the actual "fun" aspect, having some restrictions or making it something that you get to work towards is where the real entertainment value is.

 

[Ghostse]

Bit random complaint out of nowhere, but; I think what I kinda hate the most about DnD 5e's race selection - aside from most of the choices being extremely dull - is the lack of proper balancing.

Case in point: the Aarakocra. Was considering making them my new main race, but the built-in Flight results in them getting banned from a lot of tables. What's spectacularly shitty is that it would be fairly easy to balance if WOTC really gave a shit: make Flight only usable once every long rest, or do what my group does and make the ability only available at a later level. You know, make it something that you have to earn/work for; just getting handed an overpowered ability tends to take away the actual "fun" aspect, having some restrictions or making it something that you get to work towards is where the real entertainment value is.

3e woud have taken care of that with ECL.

That or a massive, MASSIVE STR (and I'd say CON) penalty and worse tables for carrying capacity. Them hollow bones have combat issues.

 

[Judge Dredd]

*Just occurred to me that this may be more of a knock-on effect of very few people having access to printers at home

Me!

A friend has a printer, but is technologically illiterate. I used to have one, but the ink kept drying out because I only used it now and then. Now modern printers have DRM and subscription bullshit built into them. When the recommendation is "put a pen on a CnC machine" you know you're fucked.

Supposedly lots of places have printers and will let you use them if you ask. No luck so far. There's a stationary place that allows you to print things, but it's £3 per document + 88p per page, and you have to bring your own paper. Depending on how strict they define that. It could be £15 just for a set of blank character sheets. Haven't checked the library yet. The local one shut down a while ago, and the nearest other one I've not found open since COVID.

Case in point: the Aarakocra. Was considering making them my new main race, but the built-in Flight results in them getting banned from a lot of tables.

Them hollow bones have combat issues.

For what it's worth, wouldn't be banned at my table. In 5e, flight is nothing.

In my last campaign, a guy was playing a tangu (or whatever name Nimble gives to bird people). Every combat outside, it was the same move. Fly 25ft in the air, and start shooting. Until one kobold (I think it was using a bow, but might have been throwing rocks) got a lucky crit. High damage. Hollow bones meant he took double that. Instant KO. Fell 25ft taking 5d6 damage on top of that. I don't remember how, but the character survived, but was basically hospitalized with major injuries as close to death as the game allowed.

the lack of proper balancing.

I'm fine with it. This obsession with balance (okay, mainly it was to not offend twitter crazies) was part of the reason we got the completely flavourless races that don't differ in any way.

Speaking of which, I'm thinking of getting Tales of the Valiant, simply because it's 5e cleaned up a bit. Nimble still isn't available physically (I think, not checked) so it might be worth it as a 5e alternate.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

3e woud have taken care of that with ECL.

That or a massive, MASSIVE STR (and I'd say CON) penalty and worse tables for carrying capacity. Them hollow bones have combat issues.

That's something else I like to run with them as well; logically speaking, the birds would have less strength and be able to take less of a hit simply because they need to be lightweight in order to fly. Good for scouting and/or stealth, but not for, say, a frontline tank.

For what it's worth, wouldn't be banned at my table. In 5e, flight is nothing.

I'm fine with it. This obsession with balance (okay, mainly it was to not offend twitter crazies) was part of the reason we got the completely flavourless races that don't differ in any way.

Tell that to some of the other DMs out there; like you guys were saying, a lot of 'em want every race to be on the same playing field because it's "easier and more fun to balance" and they don't want to put in the effort. Even earlier in this thread we got people banning the Aarakocra because of Flight.

But yeah, I was mostly griping about DMs banning the race instead of wanting to put in the effort to actually balance shit. In my defense, I'm being semi-forced into choosing either Aarakocra or Tabaxi for my main character, and I'd rather pick the one that's got a few more interesting ideas than the furry... even though the catfolk has a few ideas as well, sadly.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Break out the furry tails and goth makeup, it's time to look at Monsterhearts! The game all about roleplaying as teenage monsters that fuck!

 

[p1138]

*Just occurred to me that this may be more of a knock-on effect of very few people having access to printers at home or being total cucks afraid to print their Chad imaginary game sheets at the office to impress their co-workers.

Realistically, hardly anyone owns a printer at home these days and half the time they'll have bought an inkjet that gets used once maybe every 6-12 months so the print head will have dried up making it unusable or some other nonsense with it. Of course that still doesn't stop people from spending a whole 50 cents or however much it is at some place like a fedex store with a printer to get it done.

 

[Ghostse]

A friend has a printer, but is technologically illiterate. I used to have one, but the ink kept drying out because I only used it now and then.

I had the same problem, but there is a solution:
Get a desktop laser printer. Its more expensive than an inkjet and unless you go really crazy will only print B&W but for me its worth the upcharge to have it fire up when I need it and not need to buy $30 of ink.

I'll also tell you the truth:
I have actually only bought one LP, and that one I gave to my roommate when I moved out. Every other one I've had I've gotten for free at the garbage drop off at my complex. Just hang around by the local uni in may, and you can probably get one for free. Or lurk the used ads for college students moving out.

I actually grabbed a super nice Brother left by the dumpster that I gave away when I moved out and I still regret it. That was a solid printer with wifi and ethernet and a LPR daemon.

Actually the current place I live while I sourced a free move-out special, they have a business center with a printer and I just use that because they have free paper.
I usually use the printer at work, but cannot do so currently. Basically because we are dealing with healthcare information, and every print job is audited to make sure you aren't exfiltrating confidential data, so personal use would actually be noticed. A less regulate employer though zero fucks given.

There's a stationary place that allows you to print things, but it's £3 per document + 88p per page, and you have to bring your own paper.

Jesus christ. I knew the UK was fucked but damn.

But yeah, I was mostly griping about DMs banning the race instead of wanting to put in the effort to actually balance shit. In my defense, I'm being semi-forced into choosing either Aarakocra or Tabaxi for my main character, and I'd rather pick the one that's got a few more interesting ideas than the furry... even though the catfolk has a few ideas as well, sadly.

Mean I'd ban them because at my table we suffer not the furry to live. The horrible balance would be secondary.

My take on balance is this:
Not everything needs to be absolutely 1:1, but no race should be better than a human in every situation. There is not a damn thing wrong with Drow being better than humans in the underdark, there is nothing wrong with Elves being better at magic. But there should always be trade offs and compromises - not simple a lack of benefits, there should be consequences and they should matter.

or I guess to be frank: If your system doesn't give players a reason to play a normal human adventurer I think your system sucks. This doesn't mean it needs to dirt farming simulator, but if you have a non-human race playing as that race with its advantages and drawbacks should be baked in.

 

[Henri Barbusse]

Break out the furry tails and goth makeup, it's time to look at Monsterhearts! The game all about roleplaying as teenage monsters that fuck!

Monsterhearts 1 or 2? Because even as admitted Monsterhearts liker, I will say that 2 is crap. It has actual settings to play in, but they're written by the biggest stars of indie RPGs in 2016, such as Anna Anthropy and Zoe Quinn... And asexuality rules are just completely counter to the basic idea of the game.

 

[Overly Serious]

I bought a colour laser printer a decade ago (not that much more expensive than a black and white these days, actually). The ink is expensive but it comes in such quantities and doesn't try up like an inkjet that it works out great. Sure, if you hardly ever print anything there's no reason to buy a printer over just going to a print shop (if you have one). But if you do buy a printer, get a laser. It's a little more expensive and it's more complex. But in every aspect of use it is better.

Not everything needs to be absolutely 1:1, but no race should be better than a human in every situation. There is not a damn thing wrong with Drow being better than humans in the underdark, there is nothing wrong with Elves being better at magic. But there should always be trade offs and compromises - not simple a lack of benefits, there should be consequences and they should matter.

See I have a different take. Same problem, different solution - I just think not all races should be playable. Or if they are, not from the same levels. The old BXCMI series had "monster races" which either had juvenile versions (play a baby troll) as kind of negative levels, or simply don't make them available until the party had reached the appropriate character level. E.g. Troll level 1 was equivalent to normal PCs level 6. (Numbers illustrative rather than accurate).

I just don't like the flavour of taking something that is supposed to be better than humans and introducing nerfed aspects for balance. Like @Judge Dredd I have learned to hate balance. Not trying to make this thread eternally the Shadowrun thread but the metahuman races in that WERE better than humans (mostly) but they had a Build Point cost meaning you had less left to spend on contacts, gear, etc. It's one of the things I dislike about Cubicle 7's Wrath and Glory game which is set in WH40K. It's not wholly like this and something a GM can work around, but it has Eldar Corsairs as a Tier 1 archetype so that GMs can run a starting game with eldar party members if they want. Eldar are the archetypal "just better than you" race. Obnoxiously so. Making nerfed versions for balance rubs me up the wrong way. Sure, there are humans that can fight them and rival them. But those humans are heroes, elites, etc. Shouldn't be Joe Guardsman 1v1'ing an Eldar corsair.

 

[Ghostse]

See I have a different take. Same problem, different solution - I just think not all races should be playable. Or if they are, not from the same levels. The old BXCMI series had "monster races" which either had juvenile versions (play a baby troll) as kind of negative levels, or simply don't make them available until the party had reached the appropriate character level. E.g. Troll level 1 was equivalent to normal PCs level 6. (Numbers illustrative rather than accurate).

completely agree: some races just have no business being Playable Races. this is why I usually keep characters to "PHB only".

I just don't like the flavour of taking something that is supposed to be better than humans and introducing nerfed aspects for balance. Like @Judge Dredd I have learned to hate balance. Not trying to make this thread eternally the Shadowrun thread but the metahuman races in that WERE better than humans (mostly) but they had a Build Point cost meaning you had less left to spend on contacts, gear, etc.

This is what I mean by "In every situation" and "If your system doesn't give players a reason to play a normal human adventurer I think your system sucks". Its fine if other races have better stats, as in your example, the trade off is less gear and less contacts. Nothing wrong with properly tuned ECL either.

And also, as you point out, it leads to BS like trying to Nerf eldaar down to the level of a lvl 1 human and that doesn't work with the lore. But if someone rolls and Eldaar it should be because they want to play an Eldaar, not because of min-max meta.

I handle this in my B/X games with starting characters being standard race only, but there is the option to bring unique races into the party by recruiting NPCs.

 

[Overly Serious]

But if someone rolls an Eldaar it should be because they want to play an Eldaar, not because of min-max meta can do the single most patronising, condescending, disdainful tone you have ever heard.

*ahem*

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Because even as admitted Monsterhearts liker

What makes you like Monsterhearts? I ask because it seems like the game's themes of monsters dealing with messy relationships is just replicated better in the World of Darkness games.

 

[The Ugly One]

Fly 25ft in the air, and start shooting. Until one kobold (I think it was using a bow, but might have been throwing rocks) got a lucky crit. High damage. Hollow bones meant he took double that.

"Hollow bones" is a house rule, not RAW. You have your house rule, I have mine. My house rule just happens to be no monster races. No, you can't be an orc, either, orcs are chaotic slaves of the god of destruction, and if you show up with a backstory written for why your orc is special, my response is, "I said no orcs, rewrite it." By the way, WotC banned Aarakocra from the Adventurer's League, too.

Tell that to some of the other DMs out there; like you guys were saying, a lot of 'em want every race to be on the same playing field because it's "easier and more fun to balance" and they don't want to put in the effort. Even earlier in this thread we got people banning the Aarakocra because of Flight.

No, it's not about putting every race on the same playing field, it's about not breaking shit that wasn't written under the assumption of at-will fly existing. There's a reason no classic adventure puts a Ring of Fly in the first room of a first-level dungeon. E.g. I ran a large dungeon that centers around a large elevator shaft that isn't traversable at low level. It was originally written for AD&D, and I ran it in 5e. There are things in the shaft that are supposed to be rewards for surviving the dungeons harrowing encounters, not writing "Aarakocra" at the top of your sheet at level 1. I know the standard responses, and here are my ripostes:

1. "You should rewrite the dungeon so the 1st-level Aarakocra isn't getting epic loot." No.
2. "Rule of cool, bro! Who cares if the 1st-level party finds a cache of valuable loot right away!" No.
3. "You should reward players for being creative." No, and writing "Aarakocra" on your sheet isn't creative.

But yeah, I was mostly griping about DMs banning the race instead of wanting to put in the effort to actually balance shit.

Here's what Volo's Guide to Monsters has to say about it:

If you're a player, consult with your DM before using any of the races here. Many DMs like to consider the implications for their world before adding a new race. Your DM may say yes or no to you using a race or may modify it in some way.

Right there in the text, you have no expectation that the DM will allow any race in that book. On top of that, any player who thinks they're entitled to demand I write house rules, revise dungeons, or alter settings for them can fuck right off with that attitude. I'm not kidding, players who have tried to tell me what I'm obligated to do with the setting or mountains of content just because they found something they liked in a WotC splat have had a private chat with me where I told them this wasn't the right game for them, and that's exactly the talk you and I would have after you cried about how I'm just lazy if I won't rewrite Greyhawk Ruins so birdman players don't break it.

I have found that ignoring player entitlement is a great way of get rid of trannies, too.

 

[Allied-Mastercomputer]

"I said no orcs, rewrite it." By the way, WotC banned Aarakocra from the Adventurer's League, too.

Bro all you have to do is watch the movie they put out with Chris Pines, Honor Among Thieves. Even then they think Aarakocra are bullshit and they were the ones writing the movie.

 

[Ghostse]

There are things in the shaft that are supposed to be rewards for surviving the dungeons harrowing encounters, not writing "Aarakocra" at the top of your sheet at level 1. I know the standard responses, and here are my ripostes:

1. "You should rewrite the dungeon so the 1st-level Aarakocra isn't getting epic loot." No.
2. "Rule of cool, bro! Who cares if the 1st-level party finds a cache of valuable loot right away!" No.
3. "You should reward players for being creative." No, and writing "Aarakocra" on your sheet isn't creative.

Preach.

 

[Lurkey Turkey]

Looks like White Wolf being reinstated isn't going to improve much.

 

[Corn Flakes]

View attachment 7647915

Looks like White Wolf being reinstated isn't going to improve much.

Literally, who?

Oh. It's the former VP of D&D at WotC.

Yep, this is gonna go grrrrrrrreat.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

No, it's not about putting every race on the same playing field, it's about not breaking shit that wasn't written under the assumption of at-will fly existing. There's a reason no classic adventure puts a Ring of Fly in the first room of a first-level dungeon. E.g. I ran a large dungeon that centers around a large elevator shaft that isn't traversable at low level. It was originally written for AD&D, and I ran it in 5e.

Oh, hey, you ran the same dungeon I had in mind! And yeah, I fully get it; certain races break the flow of the dungeon in half, and it ruins the natural progress of how things tend to go. It's why I actually like to "gimp" my characters; as I said previously, I myself wish that Flight for Aarakocra was unlocked at a later level, or otherwise limit Flight in various ways to help not break party comp; even something like an curse that prevents/limits flying sounds like fun.

I.e., I want to modify the race to where it makes the game harder for myself, and therefore more fun. A glass cannon build where the only really useful racial ability for it doesn't unlock until it's likely the adventure is almost/already over? Sounds like fun, as long as it doesn't fuck over the rest of the party. Something to work towards, unlike what WOTC pushes out. Hell, only reason why I'm even considering the Aarakocra in the first place is because I'm basically forced to use the damn thing for a build idea.

 

[The Ugly One]

View attachment 7647915

Looks like White Wolf being reinstated isn't going to improve much.

a) Why don't they just cut to the chase and shut down WW?
b) THUMBNAIL YOUR SHIT