Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[robobobo]

Are there any 5e compatibles you'd recommend?

I get that getting people to learn a new system is potentially a hard sell, but I still recommend that you try. 5e is the very opposite of a universal game system; it is actively bad at handling setups where skill use is a high priority and its combat relies on spells or special abilities to provide any flavor whatsoever as the basic 'I swing my axe' combat actions are boring as fuck. It is entirely balanced around a fantasy dungeon crawly setup. Shoehorning a different genre onto 5e ruleset is just a recipe for sadness.

 

[Overly Serious]

Very much this. The plastic standees are really good and you can get whole kits on amazon.

Hell, just get little paper labels and write PC and NPC names on. That's what I've typically done when I need a visual layout. Quick, gets me back to the game and doesn't irritate me when I don't have just the right token/miniature for something. I'm the sort that likes to get everything right and it's a lot easier to do that with a bunch of written labels than expensive minis. And functionally they're the same.

If I wanted to roll dice with a bunch of unwashed nerds on a college campus, I can do it for a lot less than $3000.

Holy Hell! I could hire a few good looking escorts for that and have them play RPGs with me all night! $3,000 for what I guarantee has at least one seminar on making your players feel "safe".

 

[Requine.]

I get that getting people to learn a new system is potentially a hard sell, but I still recommend that you try. 5e is the very opposite of a universal game system; it is actively bad at handling setups where skill use is a high priority and its combat relies on spells or special abilities to provide any flavor whatsoever as the basic 'I swing my axe' combat actions are boring as fuck. It is entirely balanced around a fantasy dungeon crawly setup. Shoehorning a different genre onto 5e ruleset is just a recipe for sadness.

Doubling this. warhammer fantasy 2e or a modded 4e is my go to for fantasy stuff. I really like how your character can grow naturally because it has a career and trapping system, that feels more natural to flow into instead of a level and class system. Plus magic system is very risk vs reward and actually engaging.

The thing I hate most about DnD is that the magic system is just, "I have a list that resets every 24 hours. And I'm going to misconstrue all of the spell descriptions unless we spend 15 minutes in the middle of battle arguing about it. Ohh, *Fake yawn* I don't got the right shit for this wow, my character is so sleepy let's just stop the gameplay and rest guys."

I can't believe people put up with that shit.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

I run pulp/spy themed games, and the PCs being captured comes up occasionally. Things like drugged food, sleeping gas, and other methods I just narrate. It works even better as a session starter since you don't have to justify or roll for anything.

Had a Netrunner game start that way with all of us waking up in a hospital basement with no idea who we were. I pointed out that I was playing an android and the GM shrugged. I then grabbed a labcoat and proclaimed myself Dr Fisto and proceeded to ignore all my actual stat investitures and skills and dedicate myself to bullshittery. By the end of the campaign this had escalated to Dr. Fisto, attorney at law, private investigator, antique dealer, and black belt of the 5th dan in krav maga. I was supposed to be a technician/engineer and never used a single one of those skills ever. It was great.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Had a Netrunner game start that way with all of us waking up in a hospital basement with no idea who we were.

There's a "classic" Savage Worlds adventure (basically a single page outline) where it's basically silent hill. You wake up tied to a hospital bed with no idea how you got there.

One campaign starter I liked, but never got to use, is the PCs are recovering from an explosion and some mage screaming that they're fools. They blew up some magic object, and the explosion has wiped their memories, at least for a while.

 

[The Ugly One]

The thing I hate most about DnD is that the magic system is just, "I have a list that resets every 24 hours. And I'm going to misconstrue all of the spell descriptions unless we spend 15 minutes in the middle of battle arguing about it. Ohh, *Fake yawn* I don't got the right shit for this wow, my character is so sleepy let's just stop the gameplay and rest guys."

5e ameliorated this quite a bit by combining a bunch of spells, eliminating weird niche spells like Rocks to Mud, and then revising the spell slot system so you don't have to choose exactly how many times you can cast Magic Missile that day. ACKS gets rid of spell prep completely. Your repertoire is what you can cast, period, use any appropriate-level slot you have.

You will never stop rules lolyers from trying to argue they can turn some low-level summon spell into Power Word: Kill by summoning it inside their enemy's throat when he opens his mouth.

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

Have any of you tried printing and binding your RPG pdfs to make your own books? If so, how heavy is the paper you use? Most things I'm seeing suggest something like 28-32 lb (105-120 gsm) paper, but it seems like industry standard is something heavier? I'm not shooting for industry standard exactly, but I do want the art in the books to print right.

I'm going to start spiral binding books so I have extras at the table for players to use and I can print stuff I've pirated that I don't want to buy.

 

[Ghostse]

Hell, just get little paper labels and write PC and NPC names on. That's what I've typically done when I need a visual layout. Quick, gets me back to the game and doesn't irritate me when I don't have just the right token/miniature for something. I'm the sort that likes to get everything right and it's a lot easier to do that with a bunch of written labels than expensive minis. And functionally they're the same.

When I do in-person usually I'll have sufficient time to either A) prep the minis I'll need and/or B) reskin any enemies that I don't have minis for into enemies I DO have minis for.

I have the entire run of D&D Adventure system games, which has three of every type of mook n them (plus bosses but its rate I use the bosses) and the 6(?) games cover a wide variety of enemies.
I also have a solid collection of the 4e cardboard tokens so if I'm lacking a mini I usually have a cardboard token.

If all of those inventory checks still fail me (I.e. 5 enemies but I only have 3 minis), I have a dice pouch full of the flattened glas beads in Red/Green/Blue/White/Clear and those make acceptable proxies.

If I didn't have all this stuff, I'd go the Standee route.

That's wonderful. That's just beautifully evil. Almost Paranoia level mindfuck.

No, the paranoia mind fuck is when Friend Computer continues to send kill bots to hunt them down until they give up the traitor.
The first death, when their clone activates, have them draw a new card from the all-black deck. Now they aren't sure if the traitor has actually spawned or not.

Have any of you tried printing and binding your RPG pdfs to make your own books? If so, how heavy is the paper you use? Most things I'm seeing suggest something like 28-32 lb (105-120 gsm) paper, but it seems like industry standard is something heavier? I'm not shooting for industry standard exactly, but I do want the art in the books to print right.

I'm going to start spiral binding books so I have extras at the table for players to use and I can print stuff I've pirated that I don't want to buy.

Yes, sort of, but probably not in a way relevant to your question.

I have one of these:

https://raysonstapler.com/wire-binder/td-1500b34.html

Which I use to ring-bind or spiral bind... things. Dungeons, subsets of rules, tables, campaign trackers, etc. I've done it for handouts but only rarely; usually if there is enough information to make a handout worth binding it's better in searchable digital. And if its just a page or two, if you're concered about it remaining intact just having them put in a school folder is better.

I will print off LEGALLY ACQUIRED PDFs of splats I own so the originals don't get fucked up in my bag, or so that I can write notes/etc without destroying the originals (usually comboed with index cards for enemies, unless its 4e and that has been done for me). These are almost always in just B&W so I'm not overly concerned about the art. These are not meant to be bookshelf-permanent, usually designed to last no more than a couple months, so I just use "good quality printer paper" with a plastic cover for anything that I want to last more than a session.

Edit: For example, WMPRPG 4e has wonderful typesetting but god-awful chapter ordering, with Skills separate from Combat Actions for some unknown reason. So have a custom PDF from the PHB PDF of just those pages, and I have a couple copies I'll put on the table when doing a 4e game. When one gets a little fucked up I'll toss it and print a new one.

I also have Reavers of The Harkenwold combined into a single document, and I will put in some blank pages after the towns and the more important fights so I can write notes. But its completely disposable.

Double Edit: And I guess that doesn't count using Lulu for Basic Fantasy or DTRPG's PoD service for my 1e/2e books.

 

[Overly Serious]

Have any of you tried printing and binding your RPG pdfs to make your own books? If so, how heavy is the paper you use? Most things I'm seeing suggest something like 28-32 lb (105-120 gsm) paper, but it seems like industry standard is something heavier? I'm not shooting for industry standard exactly, but I do want the art in the books to print right.

I'm going to start spiral binding books so I have extras at the table for players to use and I can print stuff I've pirated that I don't want to buy.

Just used fairly standard printer paper and hole-punched them and put them into a binder. Ended up much thicker than the books. Not as good but serviceable. Most hard-copies I see these days include a PDF version in the price. So been a while since I've gone the reverse route.

 

[The Ugly One]

Hell, just get little paper labels and write PC and NPC names on. That's what I've typically done when I need a visual layout. Quick, gets me back to the game and doesn't irritate me when I don't have just the right token/miniature for something. I'm the sort that likes to get everything right and it's a lot easier to do that with a bunch of written labels than expensive minis. And functionally they're the same.

I have painted a lot of minis. However, the only things I have 6 or more than are orcs, skeletons, goblins, and kobolds. So it turns out that, no matter what they're fighting, they always seem to look like skeletons. It's become something of a running joke that all the monsters are anorexic. The one time I painted an aboleth in preparation for a major encounter, I left it at home...so I used a skeleton.

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

Just used fairly standard printer paper and hole-punched them and put them into a binder. Ended up much thicker than the books. Not as good but serviceable. Most hard-copies I see these days include a PDF version in the price. So been a while since I've gone the reverse route.

Right, but there's a handful of systems where I'm the only guy that owns the book, and I'd rather have a nice, spiral-bound copy or two for the players to use while I use my copy. In addition to stuff I have pdfs of that I either don't want to buy the physical copy or the physical copies are out of print.

I know it's pretty easy to hole-punch and put them in a binder, but I always find those 1. don't look that great and 2. are unwieldy at the table. I'm hoping some high-quality spiral binds will solve both problems.

 

[Ghostse]

Right, but there's a handful of systems where I'm the only guy that owns the book, and I'd rather have a nice, spiral-bound copy or two for the players to use while I use my copy. In addition to stuff I have pdfs of that I either don't want to buy the physical copy or the physical copies are out of print.

I know it's pretty easy to hole-punch and put them in a binder, but I always find those 1. don't look that great and 2. are unwieldy at the table. I'm hoping some high-quality spiral binds will solve both problems.

Let me lay some cold hard truth on you:
Unless you are breaking into the printshop ninja style, or otherwise aren't paying for anything involved in said printing, you are going to be paying more than a used book. Even just a discounted book, when you are paying consumer rates for prints let alone color print, let along the binding, is still pretty financially favorable.
And unless we're talking sub-100 page booklets here, you are going to have problems you never knew existed.

Additionally: *deep breath* paper is heavier than you realize. There is a reason most spiral binds are for sub-35 pages. When you are spiral binding a 100+ page RPG book, that shit is going to age like milk. And unless people are treating it kindly (hint: they wont) expect pages to tear loose and you have print the whole MF'er again because good luck getting a fresh page into that bullshit.

the only reason to custom print is because what you are making brings value to the table.
In my case, printing modules on wires lets them lie flat and as I said, I can write/draw/highlight with no fucks given. Or in the case of my 4e rules excerpt, because I did editing so it wasn't available to buy.

I will say my Rayson was sub-$200 and even when we take into account the $5 Staples charges to open a binding job, if we ignore the paper I claimed via squatters rights from work, I'm not even close to above water.
The only thing that saves me is the Madness at Gardmore Abbey megasplat wasn't available outside of a box set with dungeon tiles, tokens, and a Deck of Many Things, so not having to source those via ebay has helped the financial calculus.
(what I get from my Rayson is time and effort; I don't have to head to the local staples when is open and work with the wagie to get the settings right. I have the guard and pins set and just punch away when I have time and want to make a booklet)

tl;dr: Just buy some used books you utter mong.

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

tl;dr: Just buy some used books you utter mong.

Aside from initial investment in stuff like the spiral bind hole puncher, cost for me is just the paper and the spiral; I'm using a good color printer at work which I can use as much as I like so long as I provide my own paper. I'm also not trying to spiral bind massive 500 page tomes or whatever, most of my stuff is between 100-200 pages, which decent quality spirals indicate that they're capable of handling. I have many 100+ page booklets from programs and conferences I've attended that attest to the possibility. And some of the things I'm looking to print are either not available or still going for $75-80 apiece + S&H, when a 500 sheet package of 32lb paper is $17.50.

I am a financially literate adult and capable of determining if something is way more expensive than just buying a book, thanks. Your cold hard truth is decidedly lukewarm and flaccid.

 

[Overly Serious]

Aside from initial investment in stuff like the spiral bind hole puncher, cost for me is just the paper and the spiral; I'm using a good color printer at work which I can use as much as I like so long as I provide my own paper.

Somebody at your work does NOT understand printer economics.

I am a financially literate adult and capable of determining if something is way more expensive than just buying a book, thanks. Your cold hard truth is decidedly lukewarm and flaccid.

Hey, you didn't tell any of us that printer ink and use was free for you. His advice was pretty solid and well-meaning. Also, I can say he's right about the weight. I printed out some purchased PDFs mainly as backups to prevent wear on my print copies and it was notably thicker and heavier than the original book. (And yes, I printed on both sides).

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

Somebody at your work does NOT understand printer economics.

Lol, as I understand it, the reason for the laxity is that we're a pretty big place on one of those professional printer contracts, so they replace the ink and toner every so often and while we need these printers, we don't have the print volume to use all the ink and toner. If I print 500 pages a day and we run out early, this permission would obviously be revoked. Just need to use it judiciously.

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

Hey, you didn't tell any of us that printer ink and use was free for you. His advice was pretty solid and well-meaning.

I was just asking about paper weight, I didn't think I needed to outline my whole operation.

They're an office and they use inkjets instead of laser? Now I think they understand printer economics even less.

Not certain, tbqh, my prior description was mostly a guess. It's not my department, I just know that so long as my personal use of the color printer doesn't cause problems for anyone, I'm in the clear.

 

[Ghostse]

I am a financially literate adult and capable of determining if something is way more expensive than just buying a book, thanks. Your cold hard truth is decidedly lukewarm and flaccid.

X to doubt on that since you aren't valuing your time collating/binding them.

But you have been informed the stove is hot; take the rated page capacity of whatever you're buying to hold your product together and multiply by .75 to .5 to get the actual rating of anything you want to last more than a couple sessions, and good luck have fun.

Lol, as I understand it, the reason for the laxity is that we're a pretty big place on one of those professional printer contracts, so they replace the ink and toner every so often and while we need these printers, we don't have the print volume to use all the ink and toner. If I print 500 pages a day and we run out early, this permission would obviously be revoked. Just need to use it judiciously.

Yeah that's not the case. Laser printer toner, unless environmentally compromised (read: wet) is recyclable/reclaimable. (actually even wet toner is reclaimable as part of the processing is a bake-and-grind, but its usually not done) The toner tubes on commercially serviced printers will report empty at about 10-20% (so there is sufficient toner to print; you don't want your toner to go 'farting ketchup bottle' on you and fuck up a print job), and the company will just send them back to the manufacturer who will just open them up, send the toner back into the "grinder", then clean and refill the tube. Even if the company is just having a guy come through on a regular basis to change the tubes, that isn't wasted toner and if run down repeatedly would affect your contract rate.

Its more likely you're big enough they just don't care about infrequent personal use, like most companies I've worked for, and an extra $100/month or w/e in personal print jobs is well worth the employee morale as a "perk".

Repeated 200-page print jobs may change that policy. I would advise you clear the scale of your print jobs with whoever gave you the green light, but you do you.

I printed out some purchased PDFs mainly as backups to prevent wear on my print copies and it was notably thicker and heavier than the original book.

tl;dr is that commerical printers are able to print on better paper with better ink than you can at home because of how ink is transferred - they don't just print but the in a very real sense "bake" the ink onto the paper with heat and pressure, which allows them to use treated paper that is both thinner and more durable than what you buy at the office supply store to run through your inkjet.

Inkjets rely on exposed fibers to soak up ink but it does so, when you go real close, in an inconsistent manner. Its like the difference between drawing with chalk on a blackboard and drawing on the sidewalk.
Laser jets rely on paper to hold a static charge and then dump and fuse toner, but laser toner is essentially "glued" to the paper not soaked in so it can wear off.
The other issue is that since inkjets require exposed fibers to absorb ink, and Laserprinters don't give a fuck as long as it can melt toner to it, the common denominator is exposed-fiber laser jet paper. This means those exposed wood fibers will soak up everything: liquids, human oils, and small little particulates you don't even realize are there.

The best printers you'll find for home use are the "photo printers" that take the expensive ass photo paper, and even then the longevity is often not great.

Printshops don't use the giant ass multi-ton print units because they think they look nice.

Somebody at your work does NOT understand printer economics.

Yeah our contract, BYO paper, was something like 8 to 10 cents per page for color? It might have been 25 cents, but i think that was what we billed back to departments and I think included paper.
Anyway, even a 200-page job would be $20-50 which is going to be a rounding error on a the average printer contract.

But if he got permission, the PPC isn't his problem. I think maybe telling the person who gave him the go-ahead he's planning multiple 100+ page print jobs would be wise but he says he is a financially literate adult so I would assume did that already.

 

[The Ugly One]

The stuff I have printed at Office Depot is all crumbling to dust with age now, and typically not cheap to buy used anyway.

 

[Snekposter]

All that mattered was they were prisoners (or slaves) in a wagon being taken somewhere.

"Hey you, you're finally awake."

 

[AnOminous]

You will never stop rules lolyers from trying to argue they can turn some low-level summon spell into Power Word: Kill by summoning it inside their enemy's throat when he opens his mouth.

I had a very simple rule for that and it is that you could never use a low level spell to do something that a higher level spell was designed to do. So no "I cast magic missile but instead of anywhere else I cast it in his brain and his head explodes." Lmao no. Not how it works.

I know most lolyers were not that brazenly stupid, but that isn't rules lawyering, that's just trying to get the GM to help you cheat. Try that shit, give it up or get kicked out.

No, the paranoia mind fuck is when Friend Computer continues to send kill bots to hunt them down until they give up the traitor.
The first death, when their clone activates, have them draw a new card from the all-black deck. Now they aren't sure if the traitor has actually spawned or not.

I generally had a rule that the Computer was so goddamn dumb that even if the entire party got themselves killed shooting at each other after they all exposed themselves as mutants and traitors in secret societies, the Computer literally didn't even remember that about the next batch of clones.

All the players now knew exactly what secret societies and mutations the other party members had. But the Computer would demand new evidence, having completely forgotten the previous incarnations of the parties.

I mean, duh, the Computer is your FRIEND. Would the Computer assume you're the same mutant enemy as your previous clone, just because you're exactly the same person?