- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
Yes. Not even an argument.
Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)
- Thread starter Surtur
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2016
My autism is laser focused on mechanics, not on whether encouraging his players to play a gypsy that is hated everywhere because of a spicy mix of larceny and autism about when it is and isn't a good time to steal from people is a good idea (although it absolutely isn't).
Another point on the single target vs. multitarget front is that it doesn't make sense for an ability that isn't magical in nature. If I'm in a fight with a worg and a goblin and I say some zinger to piss them off and make them focus me it's unlikely that any one thing I say would piss off both the worg and his rider. Or a knight and a peasant soldier. Or a Drow Matron and male Drow Wizard.
FR Drow are usually played as Drizzt clone Mary Sues which is a separate problem then encouraging gypsyhoboing. And didn't Pathfinder 2e at least make some effort to move goblins away from being gremlins from Gremlins? Also why don't people like 5e Firbolg players, they've always struck me as a vanilla and boring race that people only pick when they want to abuse weight/size limits.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
Of this list, only the Drow would possibly able to be exploitable by rules lawyering "She only looks 5" chemos; and at least when That Guy playing the Drow gets up to 'lol my character is chaotic alligned' nonsense, there is a 1-in-6 chance they poison themselves
Which of course means Kender are an even tie with PF2e Goblins as worst fantasy races.
Its cool. Sometimes you just need to focus on harm reduction instead of getting them to kick their addiction.
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- Joined
- Dec 17, 2017
Fair enough. But if, say, an angry mob of villagers tried to burn the warlock for witchcraft, it would make sense for the Kender to be able to insult the entire mob. I guess I could leave it to DM fiat, since its not like I'm doing Adventurer's League with this.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
Since you trying to die on this hill, I'm just going to say the following elements:
1. Small races universally move at 25 ft per round in 5e, not 30.
2. It's ridiculous you get free thieves tools, despite no races getting free items like that. You get those in the Background or Class.
3. 1d10 turns is too big a die for a status effect dice, they usually are 1d4 for duration.
3b. It's always once a day for abilities.
3c. The angry person should get a +2 to hit the thing that got them mad, it actually would introduce balance.
3d. Extraordinary abilities don't target multiple people really.
4. You call them halfling in the taunt description, so I guess you're assuming they're a subbranch.
5. No clarification on disadvantages with attention spans. No clarification by noting skills like Investigation, or Perception.
6. They culturally don't believe they are thieves, and you have them with thieves tools. What.
I mean, you can keep trying to argue on this, but no.
1. Small races universally move at 25 ft per round in 5e, not 30.
2. It's ridiculous you get free thieves tools, despite no races getting free items like that. You get those in the Background or Class.
3. 1d10 turns is too big a die for a status effect dice, they usually are 1d4 for duration.
3b. It's always once a day for abilities.
3c. The angry person should get a +2 to hit the thing that got them mad, it actually would introduce balance.
3d. Extraordinary abilities don't target multiple people really.
4. You call them halfling in the taunt description, so I guess you're assuming they're a subbranch.
5. No clarification on disadvantages with attention spans. No clarification by noting skills like Investigation, or Perception.
6. They culturally don't believe they are thieves, and you have them with thieves tools. What.
I mean, you can keep trying to argue on this, but no.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2017
Fair enough points, though I disagree on a few points.
1. I was going off of the 3e stats, where Kender end up with a speed of 30 ft compared to the halfling and gnome's 20 ft.
3c. I only mention this because I absolutely love this idea, and I wish I thought of it
3d. Some races get spellcasting, and some of those (looking squarely at Tieflings) get AoE spells. Though a lot of people seem opposed to it, so yeah, I'll stick to one person.
4. Nah, that's just a typo. Kender are their own race.
5. My issue is that I can't think of every skill check where staying focused is important. All I can think of atm are Concentration checks and keeping watch. Hence the (admittedly awkward in hindsight) wording.
I took @Oddjob OTP and @Adamska's advice and made some changes to the Kender race.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2016
Goblins/Kobolds are an exception they get 30ft, as are small members of the special snowflake race and they small-or-medium ravenloft races other then dampir who gets 35ft because why not. It's actually just gnomes and halflings that get fucked.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
That sounds like a them problem, and on top of that the expansions tend to be more poisonous anyway. Either way, it's super dumb they didn't just chuck out the movement difference if they were going to with the earliest splats.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2017
Somebody mentioned earlier that The Trove is down. Well, that seems to still be the case, No idea if that is permanent. Unfortunately, the site's only partially available on the Wayback Machine (yes, this includes maybe a few PDFs), so go check it out and see what you can grab. Otherwise, /tg/ still maintains its own constantly updated Trove archive, the "original" trove as it were (now commonly referred to as Da Archive), here. Refer back to this page every once and awhile, as this is where the PDF sharing posts are always stored and its constantly updated.
Agent of Z.O.G.
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2016
/tg/ found a new SJW game: A retrofuture cyberpunk book called Hard Wire Island
I didn't look at the actual system but to everyone's shock it's not PBTA
though it does have advantage/disadvantage mechanics.
The last one I found myself when skimming the book (fuck reading dat shit nyuhgga)
Here's a temporary link that will expire in a day since I'm too lazy to reupload to a proper site.
(Also how do I use image links without them breaking)
Here's a link to the /tg/ thread archive
I didn't look at the actual system but to everyone's shock it's not PBTA
though it does have advantage/disadvantage mechanics.
The last one I found myself when skimming the book (fuck reading dat shit nyuhgga)
Here's a temporary link that will expire in a day since I'm too lazy to reupload to a proper site.
(Also how do I use image links without them breaking)
Here's a link to the /tg/ thread archive
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Shitassdeaddude
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2018
Look, I can take the performative wokeness of this "Thirsty Sword Lesbians" (funny how the face of the studio is a white guy with a goatee) but are you seriously fucking telling me Whedon quips are a game mechanic?
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2015
@Adamska
Could you do a Dice Scum or at least a quick rundown here why PBTA rules mechanics sucks ass?
Could you do a Dice Scum or at least a quick rundown here why PBTA rules mechanics sucks ass?
Fictional Character
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2020
/tg/ found a new SJW game: A retrofuture cyberpunk book called Hard Wire Island
I didn't look at the actual system but to everyone's shock it's not PBTA
though it does have advantage/disadvantage mechanics.
View attachment 2281339
The last one I found myself when skimming the book (fuck reading dat shit nyuhgga)
Here's a temporary link that will expire in a day since I'm too lazy to reupload to a proper site.
(Also how do I use image links without them breaking)
Here's a link to the /tg/ thread archive
This game was mentioned in the rpg.net thread when the devs whined that people thought them asking 30 dollars for the game was too much. It's also written by the insufferable woketard and former Something Awful mod Ettin, so I'm downloading the pdf on principle even though I'll never read it.
Not him, but the main issue is that system is too simple to adapt and modify. That leads to dozens of low-effort shit games using it like Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Meatpunks and so much more.
A separate issue is that the way the resolution mechanic works (roll high: you succeed, roll ok: you succeed at a price, roll bad: the GM can fuck with you) is absolutely unsuitable for things like prolonged combat scenarios, but games like, again, Thirsty Sword Lesbians and Meatpunks, try to make it work that way.
You can do PbTA right, but it's actually hard work. Monsterhearts is a good game using PbTA because the moves you can do are all designed in a way that makes the mechanics push characters towards being horrible fuckheads, which is perfect for a game about playing horrible fuckhead teens. But that requires actually thinking about how the system works and having a good idea of what limited scope goals you want to accomplish in it. Thirsty Sword Lesbians could probably work if it was a game to play Xena with the serial numbers filed off, but they had to make it "You can play sword lesbians anywhere! Even without swords! Or even if they're male!"
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
TBH whenever we legit cover Thirsty Sword Lesbians, that'll be when we really go over that since it's such a cash grab game designed to trick gay people into buying it for that man's fetish. But in short @Fictional Character covered the worst aspects. I'd also add in that you don't have a lot of choice on how to act or perform as the character since it's all done like a routine.
And yes, you almost never full on succeed no matter how well you roll. It's something like you need boxcars to succeed.
Monsterhearts customized it quite a bit too though. That's a thing you have to take into mind as well; the games that use it that don't suck (rare as hen's teeth) usually customize the system somewhat to make it work.
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2018
Once the free government money slows down there might be a reckoning for the people that pump out this shit. Then "ah, no white dude, this ain't for you" will slowly morph into "please white dude, you need to buy this".
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2019
Didn't that already happen for some Hollywood movie? I can't wait to be called racist for not buying something that was marketed as not for me.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2019
racebait shit still sells well enough so they don't have to pulls that excuse, but it's only a matter of time after they already did it with sexism for ghostbusters 2016 and the charlie's angels reboot lot of people didn't even notice. they even tried it with star wars when the cognitive dissonance during tlj became too much, but star wars is an even bigger game of thrones these days, so most forgot about that.
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- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
Its been covered by @Fictional Character but:
Firstly the PBTA ruleset isn't as bad as the minimal-effort offshoots would have you believe. Its not great, but its not complete shit either. What makes it complete shit is people just slapping "PBTA!" on a PDF that involves talking and rolling 2d6s.
Secondly, I will preface this by saying I personally fucking hate "Narrative" games, and I really hate the ones with shitty resolution mechanics, but I can respect that are people out there who like them and think that's fine. I will combo that by saying I absolutely loathe "follow these 12 steps to make a creative story!" creativity guides.
PBTA is an unholy combination of all three, and for a traditional game sesssion, sucks at both mechanics and narrative.
We'll start with Mechanics.
Look at the base resolution mechanic; Roll 2d6. 1-6, you fail. 7-9, you succeed "at a cost". 10-12, you succeed exactly as you say - its on the GM to tell you before you roll if what you're saying you do is impossible. On a personal note, I dislike systems that directly put the GM on a confrontational stance with the players with no basis to arbitrate against player arguments other than "cause I said so", especially when the subject matter is weird lands or people with extraordinary abilities, since you don't have "reality" to fall back on. Those debates usually just turns into unfun arguments and players feeling shutdown by GM fiat if they don't get their way, or feel like the GM is being spiteful when something goes wrong for them later on. Maybe you have a group of people who just say "Oh, OK, GM said so, that's fair" - in which case I want their names and contact info so I can verify, and also steal your elfgame friends.
Also I dislike the "happens as a you say" resolution- If your bard walks up to the King and you use your diplomacy to tell him you want him to suck your dick, rolling a 20 does not get you royal blowie, it gets you the King not immediately ordering your arrest and execution.
Lets look at a 2d6 probability table (formatting is probably going to get fucked up and I'm too lazy to tablize properly so it won't get fucked up;just google one if you really care and want to follow along)
# = =< >=
2 2.77 2.77 100
3 5.55 8.33 97.22
4 8.33 16.66 91.66
5 11.11 27.77 83.33
6 13.88 41.66 72.22
7 16.66 58.33 58.33
8 13.88 72.22 41.66
9 11.11 83.33 27.77
10 8.33 91.66 16.66
11 5.55 97.22 8.33
12 2.77 100.00 2.77
So from the table, you have about a 17% chance of your action doing off without a hitch (For d20 purists, roughly rolling 18 or better). You've got a 58% (~9 or better) of your action succeeding in general. Only a 42% of complete failure (~8 or below) and the GM gets to fuck with you.
You also usually have Stats of some kind offering a bonus/penalty usually -1 to +2, and often some abilities will give you a +1 for a future roll. That means if you are using something you've got a strong stat in you're looking at 83% odds of success (~3 or better ) and if you line up a +1 bonus from an ability, you're looking at 92% odds of success (~2 or better). If you can scupper an extra +1 from somewhere, like relationships, you're at 97% odds of success, so even better than "Don't roll a one" in d20 land.
On the other side, if you have a -2, your odds of unmitigated success are 3% (So worse than needing to roll a 20) and complete failure rises to 72%. (~14 or better)
Most of the PBTA spawn also include an advantage/disadvantage mechanic, and I'm not even going to bother with the probability there.
This is a long winded autistic way to say that PBTA, like a lot of bell-curve systems, when things go bad they go bad in a big way.
Unlike other 2d6 systems I've seen, PBTA-spawn lean heavily on using pluses and minuses, and constantly adding or removing them. Its got probability scale issues and usually no warning to GMs about how much more powerful a +2 vs. a +1 is (or how much more harmful a -2 vs -1 is)
Because PBTA is primarily a narrative game, it uses a lot of open-ended descriptions for when things apply, including the 'healing' mechanic. In PBTA-spawn, you usually don't have hitpoints, you take damage to your abilities as negative status. You take all the damage check boxes, and you are defeated. So you can relieve your character of these status effects by performing narrative actions; i.e. Remove Fearful condition by being brave in the face of danger.
Again, no real distinction on "Brave" or "Danger" and limited guidelines. This is ripe for arguments and slap fights, and the arguments come down to the GM deciding if they felt that was brave or not.
Its a horrible implementation of Narrative interacting with the Mechanics.
On that note, now lets go over how they fuck with the narrative side of the house.
PBTA-spawn is driven by "moves", both players and GM. There are usually base moves, "Talk to someone" "fight someone" "interact with something" - and then moves based on class. Some of the moves have a "pick from this list" as a result - i.e. if you have a "Punch a dude in th dick move" you might have on 10+ select two from the following list. 7-9 pick one.
- Pisses blood for next week
- Voice becomes high pitched until
- Gets a boner
- Takes -1 to all penis-related moves
You're limited by the choices, some of them leave a lot to interpretation, and not all to the choices are equal, some are clearly better than others. It'd better to just give the Move the best options and say "you can also swap out for this".
On the GM side, the GM "moves" are basically just creative writing prompts "Take their resources", "reveal an uncomfortable truth", etc. Its like one of those books that purports to teach a structured approach to creative writing.
PBTA-spawn don't have turns. Its based heavily on "narrative interuption"; i.e. the GM says what's happening and the players jump in to change the story. Players go when they shout they do a thing, so if you've got shy players (or a particularly enthusiastic player) you can have people getting shut out because they aren't quick enough on the draw.
tl;dr You're getting the worst of both unbalanced mechanics and poorly thought through narrative.
I'll give PBTA some damning praise. I appreciate the way it encourages (read:forces) player character interaction and places a lot of mechanical emphasis on character (and usually NPC) interaction. Narrative games are not my jam, but I appreciate the way the docs (at least of the main line releases) directly encourage the GM to engage with players and encourage them to drive the action. I do like their "Damage manifests as increasing penalties" system, but feel it not properly balanced and leads too quickly to failure cascades.
In short, if you don't care about the fucky mechanics and just want to do a story telling game with your group that involves rolling dice, there is a PBTA-spawn called 'Simple World' which is the closest thing I've seen to a "SRD" for PBTA, and you can just roll your own Lesbian Warrior adventure without needing to give money to some soy-faced feminist ally for his fetish material.
If you want combat to come down to a "and here is how I killed all the monsters", PBTA excels here (and to be clear, I'm not being facetious. Sometimes you want combat with a little crunch ,to exist but for it to be quick and secondary to the narrative).
If you want a traditional hack-cast-slash, PBTA is terrible. And if you try to bring up Dungeon World I will judge you.
I'll now turn it over to @Adamska to re-say most of what I just typed, but competently.
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- Joined
- Sep 7, 2019
preface: have neither read the rules nor played a session, but been following some of the discussion about ptba out of curiosity (always want to take a look at it at some point but put it off for one reason or another).
remember reading a /tg/ thread that wasn't complete shitposting with both good arguments for and against pbta, where some some of the design ideas behind it were discussed - and I gotta add as someone who likes genesys which usually gets dismissed outright because MUH DICE, you gotta take feedback with a boulder of salt. like you said some people like narrative games, and after that it depends what they bring to the table. it's similar how I'm not the biggest fan of d20, but it can work even if there is a lot of shit out there. the same probably applies to ptba, if not more since it gets heavily abused by woketards and it's apparently easy to misunderstand what it's for which makes the impression people have of it quite bad.
having dozens of different versions of it doesn't help where no one knows what's a good or a bad one, especially when the worst ones get meme'd up and down because they're attached to wokeshit.
just imagine what people's first encounter with it will be, just pick any of those retarded KS projects, then imagine who runs those games and who plays them. any average mentally well adjusted person would want to blow it's brain out at some point just to forget the rancid taste (and probably smell) it left behind.
shame I don't remember which ones people recommended to get into it and forgot to make a note at the time...
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robobobo
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2014
The reason PbtA is shit is that when you're working with 2d6 as a task resolution, there is no way to have a subtle impact on odds. +1 or -1 is taking a sledgehammer to the overall probabilities. For D20, +/- 1 is a minor adjustment to difficulty. Fantasy Flight's system, add or remove or upgrade or downgrade dice types, again, minor adjustments. Warhammer Fantasy/40K, percentile-based so you can literally adjust difficulties to an exact percent. It lets the GM work out a very precise reflection of how challenging a given opponent/scenario is supposed to be, and how that fits with a character's expertise.
PbtA on the other hand gives basically no fucks about any of that because what it's aiming for is to force people into shitty half-successes. There's a reason that a big swath of the result probability is, "Well you kinda succeeded, but also your dick just exploded." It gives a semblance of depth because oh haha the GM won't say no but now you have to negotiate how some shitty thing happened to you too, isn't that just so interesting? And I brought up genesys for a reason, because on the surface the whole advantage/threat mechanic's the same, right? But in genesys the players have tools on hand to try to decrease the odds of getting threats on their rolls. In PbtA, there's basically nothing. You could stack every possible advantage, but whoops!, Einstein rolled that 4, so while technically he was able to solve that basic math problem, his dick exploded.
PbtA on the other hand gives basically no fucks about any of that because what it's aiming for is to force people into shitty half-successes. There's a reason that a big swath of the result probability is, "Well you kinda succeeded, but also your dick just exploded." It gives a semblance of depth because oh haha the GM won't say no but now you have to negotiate how some shitty thing happened to you too, isn't that just so interesting? And I brought up genesys for a reason, because on the surface the whole advantage/threat mechanic's the same, right? But in genesys the players have tools on hand to try to decrease the odds of getting threats on their rolls. In PbtA, there's basically nothing. You could stack every possible advantage, but whoops!, Einstein rolled that 4, so while technically he was able to solve that basic math problem, his dick exploded.