Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

"It's difficult to run full pacifist campaigns in D&D for a variety of reasons."

Bullshit; when I was in middle school, one of the HS kids we played with had his sister run a game for us, four weeks, zero battles. I kind of liked it, truth be told. It was mostly a city adventure, reaction rolls based on charisma, and other factors. If it wasn't difficult for a hippie in 1980 why is it difficult nowdays? This was in the twentieth century, before #woke, so make of that what you will.
 
So right now I’m wondering. Has anyone ever tried to pit their party against a party of evil counterparts?
 
So right now I’m wondering. Has anyone ever tried to pit their party against a party of evil counterparts?
Yes. It was a huge campaign thing.

It used the "Mirror of Opposition" but instead of being just fruitcakes who sprinted at the party screaming "DUR CUN BE UNLY WUN!" the 'clones' decided to go after their own goals, get divine support, all that good stuff.

The players liked it. As the levels went up, the bad guys took different spells and non weapon proficencies than the PCs.

But they had a good time.

I've used party of evil counterparts (or, in the case of the last game that ran 6 months, good counterparts to their evil drug smuggling mugging thieving ways) as competition and foils.

It works pretty well.
 
Given they openly admit their inspiration is Undertale, this is a desperate "How do Fellow Kids" from Wizards.
"Word play and solving riddles is the key to defeating enemies."

Let me translate that: "we'll allow players to roll to solve all the problems, because every GM knows that players will get hung-up and frustrated by the simplest puzzles".

You know, if I wanted to play a "pacifist" character, perhaps I wouldn't roll a Fighter. Or a Barbarian. Or even a Paladin. This could be good as an encounter, but it's going to get really tiresome as a whole adventure. Way to completely exclude 90% of the Player's Handbook, idiots. By the way, I can't wait to see how you guys try to spin the complete lack of replayability on that adventure as a positive thing.

By the way, for people who talk so much about "agency", removing the players' agency (the option to just bash some heads) looks really conspicuous.
I've actually run a dungeon that had no fighting. It was mainly an experiment where fights were mainly replaced by traps. It was okay, though I think a few puzzles should've been added to it as well.

They work and honestly sometimes it's nice to be able to talk down enemies, especially wild animal attacks if it's a random encounter. But sometimes you just need to beat the enemies to death too.
 
I've actually run a dungeon that had no fighting. It was mainly an experiment where fights were mainly replaced by traps. It was okay, though I think a few puzzles should've been added to it as well.

They work and honestly sometimes it's nice to be able to talk down enemies, especially wild animal attacks if it's a random encounter. But sometimes you just need to beat the enemies to death too.
Not having combat is fine. My GM and I have come up with multiple very combat-light adventures and dungeons through the years. It's usually a lot of traps and puzzles (and my GM is particularly proud of this one Myst-style puzzle dungeon he has in his portfolio), sometimes it's about getting sapient monsters to agree to let the party get through, and other times it's about sneaking/finding a safe route past threats the party knows they have no chance to beat. But the key is that if there are enemies, the players always have the option to engage. They might get their asses kicked, but that's just the consequences of their actions.

My problems with the idea of a mandatory "pacifist" dungeon are that it makes martial classes even less useful, and it breaks the internal consistency of the world. Having a clear foe in front of you but not being able to even choose to engage it because "lol, fae king said so" is stupid. And the Undertale inspiration makes it doubly stupid. I played Undertale. I also very quickly realized what it was trying to do (the design of that game is deliberately manipulative) and went for a full genocide run out of sheer spite. Why? Because while the game gave me the option to be a pacifist and considered it the "best" ending, it also gave me the option to kill things. And that's what matters. Combat is an integral part of D&D. Some enemies cannot be negotiated with. That's by design. Trying to make the game "more peaceful" helps no one, because the option to be peaceful has always been there if that's what the GM wanted to do.

Pulling the rug out from under the players is almost never a good idea. It can be good in small, localized doses in order to get the players to think laterally, but it has to be measured very carefully against their frustration about being constrained. To use a videogame example, Half-Life 1 has a section in the mid-game where you drop into an explosives warehouse that's booby-trapped with so many laser mines it looks like a goddamn Pink Floyd concert (a clear and obvious reason why you're limited). You obviously can't use any explosives and you have to be very careful where you shoot. Thankfully, there aren't a lot of enemies around. Mostly a handful of headcrabs that you have to shoot before they trip the mines and blow the entire place sky high. Since that setpiece is relatively short (it's mostly just one huge room that you have to find the exit of) and you get a new toy to play with at the end (the Hive Hand), it was memorable. Now imagine playing an entire game where you're given weapons and tight combat mechanics... but you can't actually fight anything.

I really wonder what the sales numbers for that shit are going to be. Like the wheelchair-accessible dungeon: I saw a lot of talk but not a lot of play outside of these shills who always say "I ran it for my group last weekend" even though their social media patently shows they were playing videogames from dusk till dawn. Really, I don't know anyone who buys 5e modules anymore.
 
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Not having combat is fine. My GM and I have come up with multiple very combat-light adventures and dungeons through the years. It's usually a lot of traps and puzzles (and my GM is particularly proud of this one Myst-style puzzle dungeon he has in his portfolio), sometimes it's about getting sapient monsters to agree to let the party get through, and other times it's about sneaking/finding a safe route past threats the party knows they have no chance to beat. But the key is that if there are enemies, the players always have the option to engage. They might get their asses kicked, but that's just the consequences of their actions.

My problems with the idea of a mandatory "pacifist" dungeon are that it makes martial classes even less useful, and it breaks the internal consistency of the world. Having a clear foe in front of you but not being able to even choose to engage it because "lol, fae king said so" is stupid. And the Undertale inspiration makes it doubly stupid. I played Undertale. I also very quickly realized what it was trying to do (the design of that game is deliberately manipulative) and went for a full genocide run out of sheer spite. Why? Because while the game gave me the option to be a pacifist and considered it the "best" ending, it also gave me the option to kill things. And that's what matters. Combat is an integral part of D&D. Some enemies cannot be negotiated with. That's by design. Trying to make the game "more peaceful" helps no one, because the option to be peaceful has always been there if that's what the GM wanted to do.

Pulling the rug out from under the players is almost never a good idea. It can be good in small, localized doses in order to get the players to think laterally, but it has to be measured very carefully against their frustration about being constrained. To use a videogame example, Half-Life 1 has a section in the mid-game where you drop into an explosives warehouse that's booby-trapped with so many laser mines it looks like a goddamn Pink Floyd concert (a clear and obvious reason why you're limited). You obviously can't use any explosives and you have to be very careful where you shoot. Thankfully, there aren't a lot of enemies around. Mostly a handful of headcrabs that you have to shoot before they trip the mines and blow the entire place sky high. Since that setpiece is relatively short (it's mostly just one huge room that you have to find the exit of) and you get a new toy to play with at the end (the Hive Hand), it was memorable. Now imagine playing an entire game where you're given weapons and tight combat mechanics... but you can't actually fight anything.

I really wonder what the sales numbers for that shit are going to be. Like the wheelchair-accessible dungeon: I saw a lot of talk but not a lot of play outside of these shills who always say "I ran it for my group last weekend" even though their social media patently shows they were playing videogames from dusk till dawn. Really, I don't know anyone who buys 5e modules anymore.
The numbers bought or player in any entertainment industry is a spook now. It's all fake and gay and I legit don't know how they can not die homeless at this point. I guess money also is a spook when it comes to entertainment now, at least so long as they ignore the massive amount of flops and bills due.
 
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So right now I’m wondering. Has anyone ever tried to pit their party against a party of evil counterparts?

It always ends with the party becoming friends with their evil counterparts for me. Both as GM and as player. But the evil counterparts were more like edgy counterparts in all those cases.
 
The numbers bought or player in any entertainment industry is a spook now. It's all fake and gay and I legit don't know how they can not die homeless at this point. I guess money also is a spook when it comes to entertainment now, at least so long as they ignore the massive amount of flops and bills due.
I don't think they divulge sales numbers anyway, do they? Not that it matters, as you said they would be cooked to make the financial drain D&D is starting to circle around look good.
 
You know, if I wanted to play a "pacifist" character, perhaps I wouldn't roll a Fighter. Or a Barbarian. Or even a Paladin.
A martial might work if the character was a technical pacifist (by breaking your sword arm and your kneecap, I restore peace between us/avoid killing anyone).
The numbers bought or player in any entertainment industry is a spook now. It's all fake and gay and I legit don't know how they can not die homeless at this point. I guess money also is a spook when it comes to entertainment now, at least so long as they ignore the massive amount of flops and bills due.
Unfortunately the money is very likely real. Lying to the SEC (and getting caught) is a good way to take a 2-5 year vacation at Club Fed. Hasbro has credited D&D for carrying its Gaming division for at least the last three years of 10-K filings that I looked at. But keep in mind that Hasbro Gaming is about 15% of the company's net revenue, which went up thanks to Corona-chan lockdowns. Exactly how much of that is represented by Dungeons & Dragons doesn't have to be reported. The Hasbro crown jewels remain Monopoly and Magic: the Gathering.
 
So right now I’m wondering. Has anyone ever tried to pit their party against a party of evil counterparts?
DM long enough and yea, you will be tempted to do this. It's a tad cathartic for DM's who are dealing with a party that is getting too big for their britches.

"How are we going to beat us?! We're good!"

*Snickering from behind the screen *
 
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You can do that with any adventure though. Just have all characters max out charisma and min max their Charisma based skills. WotC isn't even trying anymore. They just want their PC points. Getting to the point where one should look up all of their skeletons they got hiding in their collective closets and release the information to the public so WotC is forced to clean up shop.

Not having combat is fine. My GM and I have come up with multiple very combat-light adventures and dungeons through the years. It's usually a lot of traps and puzzles (and my GM is particularly proud of this one Myst-style puzzle dungeon he has in his portfolio), sometimes it's about getting sapient monsters to agree to let the party get through, and other times it's about sneaking/finding a safe route past threats the party knows they have no chance to beat. But the key is that if there are enemies, the players always have the option to engage. They might get their asses kicked, but that's just the consequences of their actions.

My problems with the idea of a mandatory "pacifist" dungeon are that it makes martial classes even less useful, and it breaks the internal consistency of the world. Having a clear foe in front of you but not being able to even choose to engage it because "lol, fae king said so" is stupid. And the Undertale inspiration makes it doubly stupid. I played Undertale. I also very quickly realized what it was trying to do (the design of that game is deliberately manipulative) and went for a full genocide run out of sheer spite. Why? Because while the game gave me the option to be a pacifist and considered it the "best" ending, it also gave me the option to kill things. And that's what matters. Combat is an integral part of D&D. Some enemies cannot be negotiated with. That's by design. Trying to make the game "more peaceful" helps no one, because the option to be peaceful has always been there if that's what the GM wanted to do.

Pulling the rug out from under the players is almost never a good idea. It can be good in small, localized doses in order to get the players to think laterally, but it has to be measured very carefully against their frustration about being constrained. To use a videogame example, Half-Life 1 has a section in the mid-game where you drop into an explosives warehouse that's booby-trapped with so many laser mines it looks like a goddamn Pink Floyd concert (a clear and obvious reason why you're limited). You obviously can't use any explosives and you have to be very careful where you shoot. Thankfully, there aren't a lot of enemies around. Mostly a handful of headcrabs that you have to shoot before they trip the mines and blow the entire place sky high. Since that setpiece is relatively short (it's mostly just one huge room that you have to find the exit of) and you get a new toy to play with at the end (the Hive Hand), it was memorable. Now imagine playing an entire game where you're given weapons and tight combat mechanics... but you can't actually fight anything.

I really wonder what the sales numbers for that shit are going to be. Like the wheelchair-accessible dungeon: I saw a lot of talk but not a lot of play outside of these shills who always say "I ran it for my group last weekend" even though their social media patently shows they were playing videogames from dusk till dawn. Really, I don't know anyone who buys 5e modules anymore.
Some of the best meat grinders in the 80s were all puzzle based.
 
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Want to see WoC make a game book based on fantasy college with proms, the hustle and bustle of college life and after school activities? Well, here you are.
lol this image sums up the book perfectly.

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.png


Hey how about we have a fucking gay prom night campaign instead of one where you raid dungeons and go on adventures?

The fucking mages school quest in Skyrim at least bothered to put a being of ethereal evil in there.
 
Remember when the big bad in the module of the week had to be defeated to save the kingdom/ world/ universe/ multiverse? Now it's about whether or not your balls drop, what sex you decide to have sex with, and whether or not you freeze talking to someone.
These are normal people LARPing as autists who are wizards.

Autists just want to larp as wizards. It's all ass fucking backwards.
 
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