TASKFORCE ∅ - This is my swamp

[Boney]

I personally subscribe to bugout preparation and dig in preparation as either once could be appropriate.

That being said, any reccs for bugout bags and supplies are appreciated.

I'll do a big write up tonight. I'm warning you though, it will be contentious for the hobbyists and not, like, a fun answer.

 

[S.C.U.D.]

shoot without headphones

As others have said this is stupid. Nobody should do this.

It used to be doctrine among "gunfighters" back in the day that you should practice without earpro because in a real gunfight you need to not flinch from the loud noises, which sounds good at first glance but then you realize in a real gunfight your adrenaline kicks in and people in gunfights get shot and don't even realize it until afterwards so mere loud noises are not a factor. A bunch of guys in the 60s and 70s destroyed their hearing for nothing.

 

[Muskie]

Thought I would share my thoughts in this thread. Based on the posts Null has made it's clear he isn’t a gun nerd so I will try to tone down the autism.

1.Handgun/ Inside the waistband holster/CC permit/Training

Handguns suck. They are hard to shoot and weak compared to rifles but they have one important characteristic that puts them at the top of the priority list, concealability. You can ALWAYS have a handgun which will always beat the rifle you don’t have with you. This way you will never be caught off guard while buying cheese. Buy a Glock 19, retarded contrarians (like me) will try and convince you their chosen wonder nine is actually the best. Just by the damn Glock. Carry hollow points. For holsters it will depend on your preferences and body type but I like my Raptor. Handguns need more practice to get good than rifles, there is no way around it you need as much practice as you can manage.

2. AR-15/Optic/Sling/Weapon light/Rig to hold mags

Your shotgun is an excellent stream prop and is definitely effective but against the troon onslaught you will need volume of fire and the ability to shoot at distance if necessary. I would recommend BCM or Daniel Defense for brands as they both have non-NFA off the shelf options that wouldn't require tinkering if you didn’t want to. A good optic is very important. Magnification is nice even for closer targets that are obscured or armored. My personal pick would be a TA02 acog with top mounted RMR. It's expensive but the best do all, for a less expensive option, Aimpoint pro. Blueforce gear sling and surefire rifle light are solid. For rigs avoid airshit Chinese stuff, gear queers here will have better recommendations. For ammo I recommend softpoint/ expanding projectiles. Out of a rifle these will have grizzly effects and conventional rifle ammo won’t go through plates anyway. On that note you have made a big deal about plates, I don’t think they are as big of a deal as you made them out to be. They only cover a relatively small area and are totally ineffective at some angles. Just keep shooting. A good way of thinking about it is that plates are like a 15-20% chance per hit to be saved from immediately dying; they don’t make you Iron Man. Also active hearing protection is a must, Walkers are cheap and good.

3. Swamp Defense/Strategy

Getting into a gunfight outnumbered is a losing proposition even with a defending advantage. Someone with experience fighting would struggle in a 4 vs. 1 fight this applies to gunfights as well. It is very easy to get overwhelmed in a situation like this. Your strategy should be to stay alive until police arrive, as soon as the troons are spotted, call them immediately . You can stay cozy in the saferoom/bunker while the troons shoot it out with the sheriffs department. Game cams and a security system that will alert you to anyone who steps onto the compound would be a great idea, and at the first sign of trouble call the cops and force them to act quickly. Protection against fire would also be great, sprinkler system? Saferoom at the end of a long hallway with a shooting port would be ideal. Any engagement should be made on your terms. I know you want rural but there can be problems with being too rural. If people can camp out near the end of your driveway undetected for days, they can just shoot you in your car on the way to buy cheese. Sometimes a nosey neighbor can be helpful.

 

[Scout Trooper]

Also active hearing protection is a must, Walkers are cheap and good.

If you use Walkers, I recommend wearing industrial-rated earplugs under them and turn up the volume to compensate for the earplugs. If you pull apart a pair of Walkers, you'll see why. Also get fuller aftermarket ear cup cushions for a better seal around the ear.

They are hard to shoot and weak compared to rifles but they have one important characteristic that puts them at the top of the priority list, concealability. You can ALWAYS have a handgun which will always beat the rifle you don’t have with you

I'd add a couple compelling points to this:
- Can be fired single-handed with relative precision (getting back on target can take longer depending on the pistol but to your point, training and strength go a long way)
- It's another weapon system that is ready to go in case of a failure that can't be cleared with immediate action

AR-15s are great for a lot of reasons.

It's also a reason they can be bad. Everyone is running 5.56. Don't get into a fair fight.

For this reason, I echo the recommendation for .308 if your application is appropriate, particularly when you are expecting to engage people in vehicles or have distances to cover and want to make every hit count. You will pay a penalty in terms of ammo weight but the sound alone can deter an opponent.

AR-10 variants are a good option. People seem to enjoy FAL variants too, and there's the old reliable M1A/M-14.

Also if you kill 2 dudes with an M1A, faggot journos and prosecutors can't pull the "scary black rifle" theatrics.

 

[Wodanaz]

I plan to buy a full bugout kit and do exercise in it once I can afford what I want. Right now I'm saving up and trying not to waste my money.

fyi the incorrectly named Benchmade Bugout is not actually suited for real bugging out. Please do your research before buying a knife for the kit.

 

[Boney]

Any talk about bugging out that doesn't start of talking about how to set up a COC can typically be ignored, or at least taken with salt. Your COC needs to exist on paper as a bunch of roles you fill out with whoever is best qualified to fill them and those roles can be invented or scratched off as the situation requires. You start very very local, preferably with neighbors and friends you can count on (even to take point if you are not inclined to responsibility or social interaction). As you get a grasp on your immediate living space you push out to any who are willing.

Like I said, you'll add or remove roles as needed, but you might want to clearly define the jobs of people associated with or in charge of:
>Coms
>PR
>Medical
>Logistics
>Inventory
>Recon
>Security
>Recovery
>Maintence
>Power
>Operations

All of these sound so formal and structured it might be hard to imagine all the Joe Schmos actually falling into the structure. These responsibilities ideally have a preassigned SME who then grabs who he needs to accomplish his mission, but you can grab just generally competent people to plug in to fill gaps. You just need to track them, so that things can get done and people know who's handling what. Operations? How about your mom who is a secretary and is good at schedule deconfliction? Recon? There is a veteran, he probably knows how to conduct a patrol and report back. Medical? A nurse practitioner probably lives on your block. What's important is that the roles and responsibilities are clearly defined and actionable.

>"Glad you made it out okay bud. You are a paramedic? Head over there and link up with Bob, he's the doctor in charge of medical. He needs someone to set up a triage station"

Flexible, and purposeful chains of command are the civilian response bread and butter. The COC itself can be the tailgate of a Landcruiser, picnic table under a popup pavilion, a building, or critical infrastructure. As long as you've got the basics covered you should be able to fill gaps and smooth out friction by running problems up the chain of command and having solutions come back down. FEMA has some incredible courses (not sure if still free) you can take to get certified in this stuff. It looks good on a resume and is directly applicable to SHTF type stuff.

I'll do kit and stuff later, I'll try to do something that is more relevant to Josh's circumstances too. Go make friends for the end of the world in the meantime.

 

[Boney]

For this reason, I echo the recommendation for .308 if your application is appropriate, particularly when you are expecting to engage people in vehicles or have distances to cover and want to make every hit count. You will pay a penalty in terms of ammo weight but the sound alone can deter an opponent.

This is not good advice. Not stupid advice, but not good advice. AR-15 in 5.56 is the answer. .308 is simply not a good recommendation until you have force multipliers on your side in a situation (like a fireteam at least for starters). He doesn't live in Idaho or Colorado where people will be taking potshots from across a valley as a primary threat consideration.

 

[Boney]

I did a big think on bug out kit for Josh, over the last few days. I decided that what would be most helpful for Josh would be a detailed description of how I would go about killing him if I was able to discover his address (and also had the inclination to do so). Then it occurred to me I would be posting for the world to see how to kill Joshua Conner Moon, the opposite of the thread topic.

Anyways, here is a camping list for you consideration. This list is making an assumption that you will actually be in a fixed place for a few days. 100% you can shorten this list and ditch a lot of it for lighter faster more rough travel, and frankly you should. But I am packing heavy because my assumption here is that a predetermined safe point has been established to bugout for a bit in a functional society where law enforcement are not the enemy. This can be carried (50-60lbs) for sure, but you might not want to take off from your suburban home wearing all this stuff, so a vehicle is at least in the picture for initial departure to the wilderness.

Camping gear:
Tarp
Rain suite, top and bottom
Sleeping system. (Sleeping mat, sleeping bag, bag liner, bivysack/one man tent)
Camping stove + fuel/terrain suitable for digging a firehole
Dehydrated meals or stripped down MREs for 5 days, 1500 calories a day minimum.
The ability to store a gallon of water
Water bottles to drink from + camel back water bottle for transporting water
Means to purify water
Mess kit
Hiking boots
X2 pairs of wool socks or thick hiking socks
550 Cord
Cold weather layers from inner underwear to outer garments. Not cotton.
1 change of clothes
Tent stakes
Carabiners
Duct tape
Multiple Bic lighters in water proof bag, or quality lighter + fuel, and flint
Map, compass, and hand-held GPS
Headlamp with red lens
Glow sticks
First aid kit
Baby wipes
Batteries
Camping knife (bowie, k-bar)
Leatherman/Gerber multitool
Backpack to fit all of above with ridged support.
Means to communicate with outside support. (HAM Radio, cell phone)

 

[Ass to Ass]

I plan to buy a full bugout kit and do exercise in it once I can afford what I want. Right now I'm saving up and trying not to waste my money.

Use gun.deals and ammoseek.com to find guns and ammo with low prices and free shipping. It will help you save money.

If you're looking for firearms that maximize utility and minimize price, look at Hi-Point carbines (surprisingly reliable), the Ruger RXM, and any AR chambered in 5.56 or 9mm by PSA. If you're rolling on a budget, "does it take Glock mags" is an insanely good criterion to keep in mind.

EDIT: The Ruger RXM makes sense for bugout because it can take all sorts of optics and Glock mags are very common and inexpensive.

 

[The Stranger]

Don't sleep on a .300 Blackout rig. It's essentially an AK-47 round but on the AR-15 platform, compatible with 5.56 magazines and lower receivers, all you need to do is swap the barrel/upper receiver and you can switch between 5.56 and .30 caliber rounds. I have one upper with a 24" 5.56 barrel and another upper with a 16" .300 Blackout barrel - I put black electrical tape on the mags with the .300 rounds so I don't get them mixed up. Swapping between the two takes less than ten seconds, it's basically like having two rifles for the weight of one.

 

[Boney]

I have one upper with a 24" 5.56 barrel and another upper with a 16" .300 Blackout barrel

After 20" of barrel length in 5.56 you actually start losing velocity. .300blk is specially designed for short barrel and suppressor use. A bit un-optimal.

 

[The Stranger]

.300blk is specially designed for short barrel and suppressor use. A bit un-optimal.

16" is as short as you can go without having to unconstitutionally register your SBR with the ATF

After 20" of barrel length in 5.56 you actually start losing velocity.

Idk where you got that from lmao

 

[888Flux]

Idk where you got that from lmao

The gain in velocity you get going from 16 to 20 is significant and IMO the 20' barrel should be the standard (as it was) for the AR platform.

 

[dick brain]

Backpack to fit all of above with ridged support.

Good list, only thing I want to add is to look out for packs that clip to an external frame so they can be worn in conjunction with a plate carrier -- i.e. frame under carrier, pack over carrier. Not a necessity, but having the option is really, really nice, and doesn't sacrifice anything in terms of cost or weight in my experience.

Edit: also, electrolytes. A commercial mix or DIY or just salt and potassium + magnesium supplements. You can go months without food depending on how fat you are, but electrolyte depletion can kill you, especially if you pick up diarrhea from imperfect water filtration/treatment; and it will make you feel like shit long before you're dead.

 

[Boney]

Idk where you got that from lmao
View attachment 7668287

Your chart is from this article: https://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/22...el-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/

Note, they are not firing from an AR-15. They are using a bolt action configuration. It is very thorough and a good read. However, we are talking Ar-15s here. The dwell time, and gas system mean that after 20" you actually start losing back pressure in an AR0-15 after 20" because the M193 and M855 rounds were engineered for full burn at 20" of barrel length. A more accurate velocity chart will look like this:

The gain in velocity you get going from 16 to 20 is significant and IMO the 20' barrel should be the standard (as it was) for the AR platform.

If the year was 1990 maybe that would be true. But we have progressed in technology to the point we don't have to rely on fragmentation and tumble for good wound channels in .223/5.56. Bonded ammo and hollow points have enabled us to have much lower velocity thresholds for reliable expansion, meaning we can have more accurate higher grain ammo moving slower to inflict more consistent terminal ballistics. 77gr TMKs are going to stay above their expansion threshold very comfortably all the way out to 300yds from an SBR, while the 20" barreled rifle will start losing the juice needed to get good fragmentation at about the same distance. For shooting at people, SBRs are the current and future meta.

Now, if we are talking about a ranch gun where you are popping yotes all day or shooting varmint, by all means your kino 20" AR is going to be an ideal tool for the job.

 

[Jotch]

You always want a bit shorter barrel than the ammo is designed for specifically, unless you are really concerned about your flash it always pays to be safe in avoiding squibs.

 

[888Flux]

Now, if we are talking about a ranch gun where you are popping yotes all day or shooting varmint, by all means your kino 20" AR is going to be an ideal tool for the job.

Standard M193 out of a 20" barrel has sufficient velocity to penetrate NIJ Level III plates at distances up to 100 yards. That alone should be the reason you run with a 20"

 

[Boney]

Standard M193 out of a 20" barrel has sufficient velocity to penetrate NIJ Level III plates at distances up to 100 yards. That alone should be the reason you run with a 20"

Hold on. M193 can penetrate AR500 (or steel armor generally) at extremely close ranges with a perfect flat on hit. Usually.

This is more of a one off phenomenon then useful capability to build your rifle around. Its also a very bad plan "A" for dealing woth armored threats. Aim for the bits that don't have armor and lay down an accurate volume of fire that is going to ensure you hit somethimg squishy.

Even cheap polyethel plates, and most cheap composite plates, the M193 even moving at 3000fps is stopped. M193 has a lot of other drawbacks, being light it is affected by wind more, and being both very fast and very light it is likely to exit the body before fraging or tumbling at further ranges as it loses velocity.

This little factoid is much more of a testament of why not to buy steel armor then it is why to use a 20" barrel or M193.

 

[888Flux]

Hold on. M193 can penetrate AR500 (or steel armor generally) at extremely close ranges with a perfect flat on hit. Usually.

This is more of a one off phenomenon then useful capability to build your rifle around. Its also a very bad plan "A" for dealing woth armored threats. Aim for the bits that don't have armor and lay down an accurate volume of fire that is going to ensure you hit somethimg squishy.

I'm confident that any plate that is NIJ certified at Level III:
"Six hits from a 7.62x51 NATO round traveling up to 2780 ft./sneed"

whether ceramic, UHMPE, or steel, M193 is going to go through assuming you are at a distance under 100 yards. It isn't the energy transfer which penetrates armor but velocity. M193 out of a 20" barrel in most cases will be above 3000 FPS which is enough to get through.

In a month or two I will set up a test. I have my poverty pony 20" and can borrow a Garmin xero.

I have a set of RMA Level III plates and I"ll set one up as close as I can get to 50 yards and the other at 100. I'll record the footage and post the results here or in the mega rad gun thread.

 

[Boney]

Very refreshimg to have this conversation with someone thinking it through and willing to put in the work to figure it out.

But you are still wrong. Haha. RMA level III Polyethel plates are advertised as rated for M193 (hilariously, listed as 5.56 M193 so maybe they are idiots who don't know wtf they are talking about. However, at least RMA seems to have confidence that they will perform).

Level III Body Armor Plate | SM-XL Multi-Curve | RMA Armament https://share.google/79NzEfbZKG0N10nFb

Your statement about velocity being the key to penetrating armor is mostly correct. But M193 also has a bit of a phenomemon going on where its dimensions and speed line up just right where the copper FMJ is acting as a sort of funnel for the lead inside the bullet to turn into a jet tipped with copper. This only happens, again, with steel plates, or shitty out of spec ones, and its why your 40gr mach-Jesus varmint rounds aren't punching the armor, nor will M855 with it's steel penetrator.

Please DO do your experiment though, assuming the plates involved are financially disposable to you, because the data would be awesome and it would be one more reference making us all smarter.