The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

So you're pro-life until they're born, then fuck them, right?

This is probably bait, but I don't think they should be killed with impunity anytime after they're born, so no.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

This is probably bait, but I don't think they should be killed with impunity anytime after they're born, so no.

But you don't seem to mind if they starve out on the street or die to lack of access to healthcare though. That sounds a lot worse to me than a quick death via abortion

 

[Tomboy Respecter]

It's not a child yet, dude. You can't get it through your skull that some people don't view it as murder because they don't view it as life yet.

And welfare has a lot to do with the child. Children are expensive, you even said it yourself. If you're going to force women to bear a child, you damn well better also be prepared to help pay for their doctor visits (universal healthcare) and be fine with social welfare programs. Otherwise you are pro-life until the baby is born, then you don't give a shit about them anymore. Your community idea is a pipe dream; it doesn't work that way in the real world

A fetus is a human being and a young one at that. That is literally the definition of a child. Even then it is the result of the sexual congress so, by definition it is someone's child (It's also the reason why the fetus is very obviously human at conception. If it weren't, we'd have a case where two people conceived (not generated like sperm or egg cells are, conceived) something non-human, which makes zero sense). Just because you have views that you can't defend with logical argumentation doesn't mean they are true. In fact, it would seem that they are little more than your opinions instead of fact based off of empirical observation and rational thought. Just because some people don't view something as true doesn't make it untrue. Some people think the Earth is flat, so does that make the Earth flat?

Also, you don't need social programs and all that shit in order to raise a child. You need to be a responsible parent with a job that can have the kid fed and well taken care of in terms of their more basic needs (along with things like their education) and learn how to sacrifice for your child. You basically have to be money smart and spend money on the things your child absolutely needs. If you can't do that, then don't have kids (inb4 the rape example. Most abortions are the result of consensual sex between a man and a woman who don't want kids. Like 99.5% IIRC). Also, yes you need a community to help raise the child because no man is an island and you want the best possible people to instill good virtues into the child as he/she grows up. Just because you live in a liberal upper-class white, suburban white-picket fence farm where everyone barely interacts with anyone else doesn't mean everyone else can or really does. Literally, that's how humans lived for the past 2 million years. Your insular mindset is the abnormality in the flow of human history. How do you think a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are ignorant of the situation barring the basic details of it could do a better job raising a child than people that live around the child and know it on an infinitely more intimate and meaningful level? It's like saying you know some person just because you read a Wikipedia article versus talking to them and getting to know them on a deeper level.

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

But you don't seem to mind if they starve out on the street or die to lack of access to healthcare though. That sounds a lot worse to me than a quick death via abortion

Not everyone born in America dies due to a lack of access to healthcare and very few people in the first world actually starve to death. Just because I don't think that it is permissible to kill someone with impunity doesn't mean that I'm a hypocrite just because I didn't do everything in my power to protect them from every possible misfortune that could possibly befall them. Going back to what I said before, this is like me saying that, since you didn't support some laws or government programs that might have prevented me from dying in a car accident or drowning in a lake, you think I'm not a person and people should be allowed to kill me with impunity.

Healthcare and and other social welfare programs are separate from the issue of whether or not fetuses are people.

 

[Tomboy Respecter]

But you don't seem to mind if they starve out on the street or die to lack of access to healthcare though. That sounds a lot worse to me than a quick death via abortion

That is a case so unequivocally extreme and unlikely to occur (people are literally hardwired to find children cute, so a child in need will have anything and everything done for them typically. Even mothers that abandon their kids typically do so where they know or at least perceive them to be safe), that you cannot possibly be arguing in good faith. Plus that's not actually what we're talking about. We're talking about whether the fetus is a kid.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

A fetus is a human being and a young one at that. That is literally the definition of a child. Even then it is the result of the sexual congress so, by definition it is someone's child (It's also the reason why the fetus is very obviously human at conception. If it weren't, we'd have a case where two people conceived (not generated like sperm or egg cells are, conceived) something non-human, which makes zero sense). Just because you have views that you can't defend with logical argumentation doesn't mean they are true. In fact, it would seem that they are little more than your opinions instead of fact based off of empirical observation and rational thought. Just because some people don't view something as true doesn't make it untrue. Some people think the Earth is flat, so does that make the Earth flat?

Also, you don't need social programs and all that shit in order to raise a child. You need to be a responsible parent with a job that can have the kid fed and well taken care of in terms of their more basic needs (along with things like their education) and learn how to sacrifice for your child. You basically have to be money smart and spend money on the things your child absolutely needs. If you can't do that, then don't have kids (inb4 the rape example. Most abortions are the result of consensual sex between a man and a woman who don't want kids. Like 99.5% IIRC). Also, yes you need a community to help raise the child because no man is an island and you want the best possible people to instill good virtues into the child as he/she grows up. Just because you live in a liberal upper-class white, suburban white-picket fence farm where everyone barely interacts with anyone else doesn't mean everyone else can or really does. Literally, that's how humans lived for the past 2 million years. Your insular mindset is the abnormality in the flow of human history. How do you think a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are ignorant of the situation barring the basic details of it could do a better job raising a child than people that live around the child and know it on an infinitely more intimate and meaningful level? It's like saying you know some person just because you read a Wikipedia article versus talking to them and getting to know them on a deeper level.

Citation needed on it being a child and not a fetus.

How the hell do you think a single 16 year old girl is going to get a job to support her child? How do you think she is going to pay for healthcare? Since you don't give a shit about the kid after it's born, it's obvious you're just a hypocrite.

 

[Tomboy Respecter]

Citation needed on it being a child and not a fetus.

How the hell do you think a single 16 year old girl is going to get a job to support her child? How do you think she is going to pay for healthcare? Since you don't give a shit about the kid after it's born, it's obvious you're just a hypocrite.

Literally just read Aristotle's theory of act-potency and you can get the basic gist of how you can work that out via observation and reason. You don't even need to read anything else. Just that.

Chances are she has parents that can raise the child. I have seen many 16 year old girls have their parents raise their child. If her parents are shitty parents, there's adoption, either by a family friend or by an agency. Yes, I understand that the adoption agencies (which is why I prefer a family friend or non nuclear family member adopt the child)in the US aren't exactly good, but if it's a choice between living in squalor and not being alive, the former is certainly better. The most fundamental instinct of all animals is self-preservation. An animal will do whatever it takes to survive, even if it's ultimately futile. That's why I believe that all human life has value at all times: if it didn't, then there would be no need to struggle to survive even in the darkest of circumstances. Just because I'm not able to do absolutely everything to help a person that I probably will never meet with a problem I don't know doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'd say you are a hypocrite for putting value on the lives on some people but not the lives of those in the womb since they are the most vulnerable out of all the people in the world and yet you don't even think they're human but profess to be a philanthropist because you believe in "MUH WOMAN'S RIGHTS". Where do you think these imagined rights rest upon? The basic tenant that all human life has value at all times and that we as human beings have a right to have the potential to reach life, liberty and happiness. If there is no right to life, then why all of a sudden do other rights matter? They all rest upon the intrinsic worth of human life from conception to natural death. That's why murder, rape , robbery, etc. are all crimes: they presuppose that human life has and always has some sort of value. So please, stop it with that over dramatic, retarded drivel and actually get a clue as to why people may not only think abortion is an affront to the child being aborted, but it's a contradiction in and of itself when it comes down to it.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Literally just read Aristotle's theory of act-potency and you can get the basic gist of how you can work that out via observation and reason. You don't even need to read anything else. Just that.

Chances are she has parents that can raise the child. I have seen many 16 year old girls have their parents raise their child. If her parents are shitty parents, there's adoption, either by a family friend or by an agency. Yes, I understand that the adoption agencies (which is why I prefer a family friend or non nuclear family member adopt the child)in the US aren't exactly good, but if it's a choice between living in squalor and not being alive, the former is certainly better. The most fundamental instinct of all animals is self-preservation. An animal will do whatever it takes to survive, even if it's ultimately futile. That's why I believe that all human life has value at all times: if it didn't, then there would be no need to struggle to survive even in the darkest of circumstances. Just because I'm not able to do absolutely everything to help a person that I probably will never meet with a problem I don't know doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'd say you are a hypocrite for putting value on the lives on some people but not the lives of those in the womb since they are the most vulnerable out of all the people in the world and yet you don't even think they're human but profess to be a philanthropist because you believe in "MUH WOMAN'S RIGHTS". Where do you think these imagined rights rest upon? The basic tenant that all human life has value at all times and that we as human beings have a right to have the potential to reach life, liberty and happiness. If there is no right to life, then why all of a sudden do other rights matter? They all rest upon the intrinsic worth of human life from conception to natural death. That's why murder, rape , robbery, etc. are all crimes: they presuppose that human life has and always has some sort of value. So please, stop it with that over dramatic, retarded drivel and actually get a clue as to why people may not only think abortion is an affront to the child being aborted, but it's a contradiction in and of itself when it comes down to it.

That's still fucked up. You want to force a woman to have the baby, but are against social services that could help her. Like I said, you're pro-life until the baby is born, then don't give a shit about it. You just don't want your tax dollars to have to pay for it, but you're fine if other people have to pay for it.

If a baby is going to be born into a life of pain, like harlequin ichthyosis (don't google that), you still think they should be forced to be born into a life of pain instead of allowing the mercy of abortion. You're pro-torture, dude

 

[Zero Day Defense]

It's not a child yet, dude. You can't get it through your skull that some people don't view it as murder because they don't view it as life yet.

The views of these "some people" are wrong, so who gives a crap?

Literally just read Aristotle's theory of act-potency and you can get the basic gist of how you can wok that out via observation and reason. You don't even need to read anything else. Just that.

Do we? Last I checked, Aristotle had a rather mystical belief about fetuses having vegetable souls before being animated.

My rationale boils down to "the fetus has human DNA and it grows into a fully formed human being; also, its progenitors are all human so it can't be anything else since an organism cannot give birth to anything but its own kind".

That's still fucked up.

That's a separate concern you're pitching, though. It has nothing to do with the humanity of the fetus.

 

[Tomboy Respecter]

Do we? Last I checked, Aristotle had a rather mystical belief about fetuses having vegetable souls before being animated.

My rationale boils down to "the fetus has human DNA and it grows into a fully formed human being; also, its progenitors are all human so it can't be anything else since an organism cannot give birth to anything but its own kind".

I mean that works too. I'm just saying that while Aristotle has some weird and frankly unjustified beliefs about the world, his best theories like the reconciliation of Paramenides with Heraclitus in the act-potency thesis still hold up. Although yeah, it has human DNA and given time, based on said DNA will develop into a grown human adult based on the DNA which is the instructions for making the features for that individual. It stands to reason that the fetus in question is human.

That's still fucked up. You want to force a woman to have the baby, but are against social services that could help her. Like I said, you're pro-life until the baby is born, then don't give a shit about it. You just don't want your tax dollars to have to pay for it, but you're fine if other people have to pay for it.

If a baby is going to be born into a life of pain, like harlequin ichthyosis (don't google that), you still think they should be forced to be born into a life of pain instead of allowing the mercy of abortion. You're pro-torture, dude

I think you are just a naive utilitarian who doesn't understand what it means for something to have intrinsic worth frankly. It is contradictory to believe some people have rights and others don't just based on whether they look phenotypically human or not. At least the Romans and Greeks justified their infanticide by saying "might makes right" and not pretending it was anything but a eugenics program against their unwanted children. Cruel and inhumane, but coldly consistent.

 

[ChikN10der]

So you are fine with forcing a poor girl to bear her rapists baby and then put the burdon of raising it on her relatives? That's really shitty.

Are you also fine with expanding access to welfare and foodstamps to help pay for the rape baby?

Are you against murdering hobos?
Then you must be for giving all hobos mansions and piles of free money!
Otherwise what are people supposed to do with all those unmurdered hobos?

A fetus is not analogous to a brick because a person isn't made of fetuses. A cell is analogous to a brick. By the time there's a fetus we've progressed past cells into an organism.

 

[Eris!]

By your logic slavery should be legal because you aren't forcing anyone to be a slave

Yes you are lmao.

Yeah, I am still waiting on @Erischan to tell me what a pregnant woman can do besides abort it and have the baby. He said he isn't for forcing her to have the baby, but he is against her getting an abortion too.

I already answered, you are just too stupid to understand the answer.

A collection of bricks, put in the right arrangement, is a house. A collection of cells, put in the right arrangement, is a person. A fetus isn't there yet, just how a brick isn't there yet.

Most Americans don't find abortion to be murder. It seems only the fundie evangelicals do. We have separation of church and state in America, so keep your laws off of women's bodies.

Why are all your posts so absurdly low effort? Is this the best you can do?
A collection of WHAT KIND OF CELLS?
Goat?
Mustard?
Mastadon?

Human.
It. Is. A. Human. Sentience is irrelevant. Shape is irrelevant. All that matters is its ontology. Its ontology is, at all points in time, human. It is never not a human.
I doubt you know what ontology even means.

1. It has a lot to do with it. There is separation of church and state. Just because fundies think something is wrong and the majority of people don't doesn't mean it should be.

The person you are responding to did not use a fundie argument, and yet your autistic trump derangement syndrome demands that you ree about fundies anyway.

We're talking about the actual state of affairs of whether a fetus is a child, not what people think about it.

I hate to break it to you but none of the pro-choicers in this thread can understand the concept of truth actually objectively existing, independent of their opinions.
We spent ten pages on this. They still don't get it.

They are literally infants since that word means (from the Latin) that they are young humans that don't have the capacity for speech yet, which they are.

Exactly.

And why should a child be punished for the crimes of another person? It's not the child's fault that they were born in such unfortunate circumstances, it's the rapists'.

Exactly.

Abortion is a metaphysical entity which exists throughout space and time. Saying that a brick isn't a house is correct. But you have to realize that we don't just live in the third dimension, we live in all dimensions; a complete world. By killing a fetus you're messing with other alternate realities where the fetus becomes human. This is what hulk hogan doesn't understand.

The 4th dimension is the time dimension. What you have to understand is that abortion is not a crime in the 3rd dimension, but is a crime in the 4th dimension because they know what that fetus will turn into so you're actually killing a fully grown person. When mothers who committed abortions reincarnate in the 4th dimension they will be put in jail.

Autistically (probably ironically) phrased, but correct. A thing's natural future is an inherent part of it, and you can rob a thing of its natural future. That's precisely what murder is, taking someone's natural future from them.

So you are fine with forcing a poor girl to bear her rapists baby and then put the burdon of raising it on her relatives? That's really shitty.

We're literally not forcing her I'm actually shocked that you can't understand this.
Her rapist forced her, not us.

It's not a child yet, dude. You can't get it through your skull that some people don't view it as murder because they don't view it as life yet.

We can get it through our head that some people don't view it is murder. The problem is that all their reasons for it not being murder are absurd, illogical, irrational, and not something we can consider a valid position. You are incorrect. It is murder. There is no coherent argument to the contrary.

If you want to argue for pro-choice, you need to first acknowledge it is murder. If you can't do that, you can't have a good faith argument with us.
This is not a matter of opinion, it is objective fact.

And welfare has a lot to do with the child. Children are expensive, you even said it yourself. If you're going to force women to bear a child, you damn well better also be prepared to help pay for their doctor visits (universal healthcare) and be fine with social welfare programs.

Tell that to her rapist, who forced her. We didn't force her to do anything.
It's her child, not ours. We bear no responsibility for its wellbeing.

Your community idea is a pipe dream; it doesn't work that way in the real world

It did until leftists like you destroyed it.

So you're pro-life until they're born, then fuck them, right?

Nothing changes after they are born. It's just as wrong to murder them after they are born.

But you don't seem to mind if they starve out on the street or die to lack of access to healthcare though. That sounds a lot worse to me than a quick death via abortion

Why would we care? That's not an injustice, it's just someone failing to support themselves.
Feed yourself, retard, it's not hard. You don't need a government to do it for you.

Not everyone born in America dies due to a lack of access to healthcare and very few people in the first world actually starve to death. Just because I don't think that it is permissible to kill someone with impunity doesn't mean that I'm a hypocrite just because I didn't do everything in my power to protect them from every possible misfortune that could possibly befall them. Going back to what I said before, this is like me saying that, since you didn't support some laws or government programs that might have prevented me from dying in a car accident or drowning in a lake, you think I'm not a person and people should be allowed to kill me with impunity.

Healthcare and and other social welfare programs are separate from the issue of whether or not fetuses are people.

He loves to call people hypocrites for being inconsistent with his strawmen.

How the hell do you think a single 16 year old girl is going to get a job to support her child? How do you think she is going to pay for healthcare?

Those are her personal problems. Why should anyone care about them but her?

forced to be born

That would be a c-section. You genuinely don't seem to understand what the word forced means.

My rationale boils down to "the fetus has human DNA and it grows into a fully formed human being; also, its progenitors are all human so it can't be anything else since an organism cannot give birth to anything but its own kind".

When asked "Does it exist?" the unequivocal answer is yes. It has physical matter and a physical location, obviously it is a thing that exists.
If it is a thing that exists, it must be some kind of thing. What kind of thing is it? The unequivocal answer is human. It has a unique human genome, and two human parents. It is their human offspring. It is human.
I genuinely see no alternative position to these two inarguable conclusions.

That's a separate concern you're pitching, though.

I think he can't grasp the idea that the issues are separate and totally unrelated to one another. I think he's actually too dumb for rhetorical structuring like that.

it's obvious you're just a hypocrite.

Step 1: Assert that someone believes X (they don't)
Step 2: Point out that X is not consistent with their views
Step 3: Call them a hypocrite

 

[Lemmingwise]

There's a reason that I never contribute to any of the circumcision threads. I don't have a dick, so I really shouldn't be telling men how to feel about their foreskins or lack thereof.

This is dumb reasoning.

That would mean that women who have never been pregnant would not be allowed to discuss abortion either.

Besides there is a wealth of discussion that doesn't stem from personal experience. Are only burglars allowed to discuss laws on breaking and entering? Only cops are allowed to discuss the way policing works?

It's just nonsense. You don't need personal experience to research a topic, voice your thoughts about a topic, build arguments.

It's just part of the feminist strategy of the "personal is political" to leverage the protective tendencies towards women in order to shut people up.

That's why "my body, my choice" and such. But there is no reason at all to shut men from that conversation any more than women from circumcision. Unless either would be completely incapable of conceptualising the topics being discussed.

And since it's a feels based argument I'm responding to, also unless you think that either sex is incapable of empathy towards the other.

 

[Eris!]

This dumb reasoning.

That would mean that women who have never been pregnant would not be allowed to discuss abortion either.

Besides there is a wealth of discussion that doesn't stem from personal experience. Are only burglars allowed to discuss laws on breaking and entering? Only cops are allowed to discuss the way policing works?

It's just nonsense. You don't need personal experience to research a topic, voice your thoughts about a topic, build arguments.

It's just part of the feminist strategy of the "personal is political" to leverage the protective tendencies towards women in order to shut people up.

That's why "my body, my choice" and such. But there is no reason at all to shut men from that conversation any more than women from circumcision. Unless either would be completely incapable of conceptualising the topics being discussed.

And since it's a feels based argument I'm responding to, if you think that either sex is incapable of empathy towards the other.

Imagine unironically thinking that the truth depends on who you are.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Imagine unironically thinking that the truth depends on who you are.

I am still waiting for you to explain, in non-autistic phrasing, how one can think abortion should be illegal but yet you wouldn't force a person to have a baby conceived via rape (c-sections are still having the baby, btw). Remember, we aren't autistic like you. Explain it to us in a way that us normies can understand it.

I think you legit don't understand what a c-section is

 

[Eris!]

I am still waiting for you to explain, in non-autistic phrasing, how one can think abortion should be illegal but yet you wouldn't force a person to have a baby conceived via rape (c-sections are still having the baby, btw). Remember, we aren't autistic like you. Explain it to us in a way that us normies can understand it.

Imagine this:

You are dying of thirst in a desert. You crawl through the sands to my water store. You barge in and demand water. I say "No, not unless you pay, this is a store." You leave my store and crawl back out into the desert where you die.

I did not force you to die. I had no hand in your death. The desert killed you. I did nothing to you.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

Very odd that everyone against abortion here has an anime profile picture. Imagine thinking to yourself "wow, this anime girl is literally me!" Hogan is the epitome of masculinity. Yes, I'm using ad hominems

I mean that works too. I'm just saying that while Aristotle has some weird and frankly unjustified beliefs about the world, his best theories like the reconciliation of Paramenides with Heraclitus in the act-potency thesis still hold up. Although yeah, it has human DNA and given time, based on said DNA will develop into a grown human adult based on the DNA which is the instructions for making the features for that individual. It stands to reason that the fetus in question is human.

Aristotle's beliefs are highly intelligent. He advocated for slavery because he knew, like we know today, that some people are just too dumb and lazy to pursue their own goals and what's good for them. It's better that we put them in chains and make them work for the greater good of society.
I was trying to make the slavery thing funny, but as I was writing it I realized that Aristotle is right and I unironically agree with him.

Simply, I'm for abortion because the people who are getting abortions are not the people you want to be having children. And on the same note we should make abortion more available to the poor. Otherwise, I don't really fear being reincarnated into the 4th dimension.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Imagine this:

You are dying of thirst in a desert. You crawl through the sands to my water store. You barge in and demand water. I say "No, not unless you pay, this is a store." You leave my store and crawl back out into the desert where you die.

I did not force you to die. I had no hand in your death. The desert killed you. I did nothing to you.

You still didn't answer my question. When a woman is pregnant, what option is there other than aborting it or having the baby?

I know you're autistic, but seriously. Answer the damn question

 

[Eris!]

When a woman is pregnant, what option is there other than aborting it or having the baby?

Answer the damn question

My answer is "Who cares?"

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

My answer is "Who cares?"

You said there was another option. I am waiting for you to tell us what it is.