The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

The problem with making something "illegal" is it doesn't actually prevent people from trying to do it, it just makes it a bit harder. Even if we made abortion 100% illegal except when medically necessary, all that would happen is we go back to the old ways of back alley abortions. People would try to find loopholes to get abortions by making themselves sick. Banning abortion would be as effective as trying to ban guns in the US, or trying to ban knives in the UK. Or trying to ban drugs. None of those worked. It doesn't work. Banning stuff doesn't make it go away, it just drives it underground.

I mean, you can make the exact argument about every other crime in existence. As I've said before, the law doesn't stop people from committing crimes, it just allows us to punish people for them. Banning abortions would probably be infinitely easier than banning guns because, with that, getting abortions would be much more difficult, not to mention, more dangerous, which, by itself, would make people avoid getting them just because of the personal risk involved, while banning guns would be a lesson in pain because so many people in America already have them and would rise up in unison if anyone tried to take them, and banning them wouldn't get rid of the millions of them already in the country. Plus buying a gun on the black market would be much easier than having a very dangerous procedure done on your body without proper protocols.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

Just got here and I can already feel the bubbling rage that's undoubtedly roaring through this thread.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Even if we made abortion 100% illegal except when medically necessary, all that would happen is we go back to the old ways of back alley abortions

This is one of those fairy tales that led to roe v wade and a constant reminder that atheist / humanist type people are no less superstitious and that they just as easily believe stories with little evidence for them.

Not that they never happened, but they weren't anywhere near as common as we're being led to believe. Again you look at where the myths come from, again you come back to Kinsey and his research that, yes, included child rape, as well as his piss poor sampling, where 40% of the "married women" in his average sample of women were prostitutes cohabiting with their pimp.

You could literally read kinsey this week instead of fucking around on this forum and become more knowledgable on what these myths are based on.

Here then is a question that's both appropriate to the situation and one I've been thinking about: who here is part of the 45% that believes there shouldn't be more restraints on abortion?

Since the only argument I seem to remember against non-rape, non-defect non-danger abortion is economic status, would you support abortion restraints that target middle and upper class? Why?

And here is a question to people on boths sides:
Would you financially support a charity that targets specifically those that want abortion for economic reasons and offers them the kind of support to make it less of a burden if they don't do it? Why?

And finally, let me know if there are other reasons why killing of the unborn is acceptable?

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

Just a reminder to you alt-right types out there, nobody gets abortions as much as black people do, so if you're anti-abortion, you're pro-white replacement.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Just a reminder to you alt-right types out there, nobody gets abortions as much as black people do, so if you're anti-abortion, you're pro-white replacement.

Reminder to the black lives matter crowd.... oh never mind, you can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[Muh Vagina]

Since the only argument I seem to remember against non-rape, non-defect non-danger abortion is economic status, would you support abortion restraints that target middle and upper class? Why?

No, because I support bodily autonomy. And the pregnant woman's rights, both legally and morally, trump those of the embryo.

Is there a pro-lifer in this thread who doesn't have a penis, however small it might be?

 

[Alex Krycek]

Reading through this as someone who is on a personal and ethical level pro-life I have to say my camp is being the less reasonable camp. I don’t even think the pro-choice camp has been making great arguments and they haven’t swayed me an iota. My stance is that people should be more civil when discussing a heated issue like this. I can’t bring myself to negrate a lot of Pro-Choicers because at least when they say some things I disagree with here, well most things are disagreeable they’re still being the more reasonable side.

You don’t sway people by shrieking like a moron or calling them names. This is a subject that I don’t think a forum dedicated to laughing at crazy people is a place you’re going to change any minds on this issue, and that’s why I stay out of these kinds of threads typically.

 

[KEKleon]

I skimmed this thread due to the sheer autism from a lot of posts so idk if anyone ever discusses the effects on a child who was never wanted. I don't see it frequently brought up which is a shame because that should be the most important as that's the final product of all this.
There are many outcomes for an unwanted child, most are not great (abuse, neglect, unmet needs), and some are shit (put in the system) There are exceptions like overcoming all that, but those aren't frequent. And though they may be fine when it wasn't great, it could have been better if their parent(s) were prepared and gave a shit.
Some people really should not have kids, and it's frustrating when those same people refuse to use contraceptives (I literally know someone who has 3 fucking oopsie babies and I feel bad for her children). However, aborting would be the best option for the child to prevent a shit life they never asked for and carry that weight for the rest of their lives. Of course, it's their choice to do so, but it's irresponsible to give a child a poor quality of life if you cannot provide for them.

I know adoption is a thing and all that, but generally people only adopt the babies and the process is difficult (so I've heard). I'm fairly confident they all don't get adopted anyway and will have the fun experience of growing up in the system which is the worst option and literally stunt them emotionally/mentally.

Again, I think aborting would save a child needless emotional pain, given they were never wanted and cannot be provided for.

Literally think of the children lmao

 

[Lemmingwise]

I skimmed this thread due to the sheer autism from a lot of posts so idk if anyone ever discusses the effects on a child who was never wanted. I don't see it frequently brought up which is a shame because that should be the most important as that's the final product of all this.
There are many outcomes for an unwanted child, most are not great (abuse, neglect, unmet needs), and some are shit (put in the system) There are exceptions like overcoming all that, but those aren't frequent. And though they may be fine when it wasn't great, it could have been better if their parent(s) were prepared and gave a shit.
Some people really should not have kids, and it's frustrating when those same people refuse to use contraceptives (I literally know someone who has 3 fucking oopsie babies and I feel bad for her children). However, aborting would be the best option for the child to prevent a shit life they never asked for and carry that weight for the rest of their lives. Of course, it's their choice to do so, but it's irresponsible to give a child a poor quality of life if you cannot provide for them.

I know adoption is a thing and all that, but generally people only adopt the babies and the process is difficult (so I've heard). I'm fairly confident they all don't get adopted anyway and will have the fun experience of growing up in the system which is the worst option and literally stunt them emotionally/mentally.

Again, I think aborting would save a child needless emotional pain, given they were never wanted and cannot be provided for.

Literally think of the children lmao

Why does only a tiny percentage of these children end up killing themselves somewhere in their life? And rather comparable to wanted children?

Is it really a mercy killing if it isn't what they'd choose for themselves, even as they grow up and live as adults?

 

[KEKleon]

Why does only a tiny percentage of these children end up killing themselves somewhere in their life? And rather comparable to wanted children?

Is it really a mercy killing if it isn't what they'd choose for themselves, even as they grow up and live as adults?

People generally don't want to kill themselves otherwise we wouldn't have a homeless population or so many people in poverty that just tolerate, hate, and bitch about it.

Idk what you really mean by your other question? Are you saying that even though they didn't have a good life and aren't so deeply depressed they'd off themselves that it's okay? I'm genuinely confused lol

 

[Lemmingwise]

People generally don't want to kill themselves otherwise we wouldn't have a homeless population or so many people in poverty that just tolerate, hate, and bitch about it.

Idk what you really mean by your other question? Are you saying that even though they didn't have a good life and aren't so deeply depressed they'd off themselves that it's okay? I'm genuinely confused lol

If it's not what they choose for themselves, why would it be mercy for you to choose it for them?

 

[Alex Krycek]

You can at the very least give the kid a chance. That’s always been my stance when it comes to adoption over abortion. The times I see abortion as acceptable is that the kid will be born with such a life threatening ailment or will die in childbirth as will the mother that the entire thing will end up a giant tragedy. I do not just base this on my faith but also on ethics. I just can’t understand why someone would voluntarily remove their own child from the world rather than giving them a shot even if it’s without knowing them. This does not make Pro-Choice people bad people to me. We all do fucked up shit in our lives. However I think the ethical route, not just based on Christian but also Confucian Ethics is to go about it by at least giving the kid a shot at life. I’ve known many people who were adopted and generally they live stable lives. Now does it mean the system is perfect? Certainly not. There’s things we should fix in this society for sure but to me at least that’s no reason to eliminate your own offspring.

I want to also just say that even before my conversion to Christianity (I was raised Agnostic Deist more or less) I had some apprehension towards the idea because it always just sounded very wrong. I’ve known several people who have had abortions and even given reasonable explanations for them, and then went on to later have families when they knew they were ready if they could. I’ve known other people that have treated abortions like they’re no big deal and it indicates to me at least that this is symptomatic of a society that no longer values life because we’ve become very desensitized to even the concept of the death or removal of something we are not immediately familiar with. This goes for people on the Right just rejecting immigrants because they’re immigrants. Or Rich people eschewing the poor. I see problems on both sides of aisle.

On a Spiritual basis I cannot myself compromise on the issue of it at all except in extreme cases. Just as I don’t support the Death Penalty except in extreme cases. However I’m willing to compromise on the First Trimester for ethical reasons within a secular society, provided the person isn’t just a complete whore that goes out and gets one a few times a year. I’m not saying all life is precious. There’s definitely people I personally do not think should be around (Nick Bate anyone?) but that’s also not my call to make. I’m not sure this post will go over well for either side of the argument. I know I’m probably not making any friends here. These are just my thoughts without devolving into insults or total cynicism like I’ve seen throughout this thread. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind and my mind will not be changed on this.

 

[KEKleon]

If it's not what they choose for themselves, why would it be mercy for you to choose it for them?

Because I think it's best to not just gamble on a child's life and think "well maybe they'll be ok with things". They very well could be ok with things, but 9/10 times they'll be upset about it and hold onto whatever things happened to them because they could not be cared for properly. Bad things always happen to people, but knowingly setting a child up for failure just leads to a broken adult and a cycle of broken adults happen.

A lot of why I feel this way is nearly half of all the girls I knew from highschool had oopsie babies (from a very small religious town), and literally are not equipped emotionally and financially to care for them. They could have gotten an abortion as their last resort, but now they're going to purposefully ruin a child's life and strip them of almost all opportunity except for the pell grant and maybe medicaid due to their inability to better themselves. Many of them had fucked up childhoods and now their children get the opportunity of one too.

I think it's merciful to abort if there's no guarantee of a better path for the kid, which most people will not put the time into.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Because I think it's best to not just gamble on a child's life and think "well maybe they'll be ok with things". They very well could be ok with things, but 9/10 times they'll be upset about it and hold onto whatever things happened to them because they could not be cared for properly. Bad things always happen to people, but knowingly setting a child up for failure just leads to a broken adult and a cycle of broken adults happen.

A lot of why I feel this way is nearly half of all the girls I knew from highschool had oopsie babies (from a very small religious town), and literally are not equipped emotionally and financially to care for them. They could have gotten an abortion as their last resort, but now they're going to purposefully ruin a child's life and strip them of almost all opportunity except for the pell grant and maybe medicaid due to their inability to better themselves. Many of them had fucked up childhoods and now their children get the opportunity of one too.

I think it's merciful to abort if there's no guarantee of a better path for the kid, which most people will not put the time into.

Why not apply the same reasoning to kids that have been born?

To quote a 2011 article: "After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?"
https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

 

[KEKleon]

Why not apply the same reasoning to kids that have been born?

To quote a 2011 article: "After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?"
https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

Because by then I feel it's too late. I don't like the idea of "putting down" a newborn as much as I'd hate to put down my pet when that time comes, but circumstances between those two are wildly different. There's no good answer for this really, and it all comes down to personal morals. I just really don't like seeing good kids grow up in bad environments, and allowing someone the choice to avoid all of that for the child and even themselves should do so before it's too late. We already have enough kids in the system, yet they get glossed over and literally ignored.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Because by then I feel it's too late. I don't like the idea of "putting down" a newborn as much as I'd hate to put down my pet when that time comes, but circumstances between those two are wildly different. There's no good answer for this really, and it all comes down to personal morals. I just really don't like seeing good kids grow up in bad environments, and allowing someone the choice to avoid all of that for the child and even themselves should do so before it's too late. We already have enough kids in the system, yet they get glossed over and literally ignored.

Would you have a different position if there were either sufficient people looking to adopt or sufficient resources and loving workers at the various institutions?

 

[KEKleon]

Would you have a different position if there were either sufficient people looking to adopt or sufficient resources and loving workers at the various institutions?

Probably. I think if you were dumb enough to not use contraceptives given/available to you (excluding a freak accident) AND if that situation you said were true, an elective abortion would be pointless, but that also would have to mean the person pregnant is okay with carrying to term with all the ugly effects and a lot of people don't want to live with stretch marks and the fat.

However, enough people trying to adopt won't happen as most want their own babies and try literally anything before adoption, and people who work for systems to care for others are always hostile and cold because it's just an entry-level min wage job to them.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

No, because I support bodily autonomy.

You support feticide.

I'd like to point out that @Muh Vagina, when presented with a case of a woman exercising her right of bodily autonomy to resist pressure to get an abortion at the behest of the couple who commissioned her for surrogacy, actually tried to argue that the surrogate mother was in the wrong because she put the couple through a lawsuit where they spent time and money fighting for parental rights (for a child they didn't even want) and provided a loving family for the child when she wouldn't step up to the plate herself.

Don't pay attention to her guilt-tripping (that ignores that a man generally supports the woman as she deals with all those bodily changes), and don't pay attention to her uterus-based gatekeeping. She's not pro-choice, and that aside, her participation in this thread will likely still lower the bar of standards.

 

[Shield Breaker]

This is why women shouldn't be allowed to discuss abortion. Never really contribute to discussion. Only attempts at mockery and reputation destruction. Never willing to answer questions or clarify what they say.

By that logic, men shouldn't be allowed to discuss false rape allegations.

Is there a pro-lifer in this thread who doesn't have a penis, however small it might be?

This is as retarded as Lemmingwise. A little less than half of us support pro-life. Pro-life doesn't even mean full-on making it illegal, BTW. I'm considered pro-life because I think abortion is overused and normalized, and the progressive left is pushing for insane shit like abortion up to the time of birth.

 

[Lemmingwise]

This is as retarded as Lemmingwise

Literally only reason I made the hyperbolic non-serious point. Pages of "men shouldn't have a say about this". I wanted to see what would happen if I made a case for the opposite side (because people were avoiding both arguments and questions). Immediately they felt a need to link it elsewhere on the site.

My point was to point out the double standard and it succeeded in doing so.

By that logic, men shouldn't be allowed to discuss false rape allegations

As I said, I wasn't serious with that point.

but that also would have to mean the person pregnant is okay with carrying to term with all the ugly effects and a lot of people don't want to live with stretch marks and the fat.

Thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts. It's been informative.

I am stunned by the vanity to be honest. "Even though this baby would grow up in loving family, I'd rather kill it, because I won't look as attractive".