The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Zarael]

I find it really rich when people call pro-choice individuals misanthropes, because there is nothing more malignant and dehumanizing than demanding that someone else carry a child for nine months regardless of the circumstance of that child's creation, the capability of the parent to raise the child (or find a healthy substitute) or whether or not the person in question is even able to survive the birth.

The fact you need to be this disingenuous to make your point should give you pause whether your position is actually defensible. Am I "demanding that someone else carry a child"? Are you sure? I suppose I am in the same way that I'm advocating for homeless sleeping on the street by not removing them all and sending them to gulags to be executed. You're saying because I do not find killing humans a permissible solution that I'm "forcing" someone else to carry a child which is ridiculous. What other situations do you apply this logic to? Am I forcing you to work a job because I think robbing banks is wrong?

But you need to frame it this way because if you don't your argument is non-existent. You need to frame opposition to killing as a solution as "forcing" the result of not killing. In fact I'm not. You might have a point if women could wake up randomly impregnated with no prior cause, but they can't. So there are other ways to avoid pregnancy that don't involve killing human beings. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, much the same way I'm not "forcing" you to be a parent just because I say you can't kill your child.

 

[Exigent Circumcisions]

That or a dumpster baby. The other alternative. I notice most men who claim to care ''so much'' about abortion don't give a fuck about women in general.

"If you cared about women you'd let them kill babies."
"If you cared about addicts you'd let them pawn your stuff to buy drugs."
"If you cared about pedophiles you'd let them fuck your kids."

How about:

If you cared about women and girls you'd be against abortion because the majority of sex-selective abortions kill females.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Yes I would be against it. Women should be allowed to abort at any time for any reason.

First, I can appreciate the direct answers to questions. Refreshing.
I also appreciate long posts, so good on you.

"All the prochoicers" don't agree on everything. We're as diverse as any other interest group. I think they are defendable. If prolifers disapprove of them they should not get them but they shouldn't be setting their monotheistic moral standards through the government and imposing them on everybody. Monotheism is just a single theological belief out of countless ones and people are more secular now than ever before so your religiously colored take has no bearing on them.

fyi, I don't have a religious colored take, as I'm not religious, nor come from a religious background.

..

If I thought all agreed on everything I wouldn't have been asking.

I was asking specifically if there were people on the pro-choice side of things who think there should be any controls or restrictions on late abortions, by whatever standards or metrics they themselves can specify. I have not yet encountered a pro-choice person who is in favor of any of that and at the very least in that single regard, pro-life group is not diverse in their thinking at all. Any of those type of controls (and they are different from country to country), tends to be appeasement of opposition, rather than seriously held morals, beliefs or ethics among the pro-choice group.

Have you ever met any pro-choice person who would be in favor of any type of restrictions or controls?

Of course you don't. Who cares if you use them anymore? Are you volcel virtue signaling or something? This is a population-wide issue. It's more than their entertainment, it's their ability to make reproductive choices. This kind of stance of being against birth control, even in tacit ways like: "I shouldn't have to pay for it." or fearmongering pseudoscience about how birth control is bad for you, is why people think prolifers are massive hypocrites.
You don't get to take a libertarian stance on whether birth control should be covered but deny that same libertarian right for a woman to choose when she gets pregnant and how to deal with that pregnancy. It would make more sense to be against birth control being covered and think abortion shouldn't be impeded by the government in any way. Which restrictions like limits on when abortions can be performed do.

It's absolutely silly to put "I don't want to pay for X" on the same level as "I want to forbid X".

What exactly pseudoscience are you talking about? Let's talk about the details. Let's talk about what you think is pseudoscience. I'd like to know if I get something wrong and hopefully you do too. I've only talked about two types of birth control, but if you like, I'll say that I don't think there are adverse health effects of condoms.

Women do control when they get pregnant. I'm not against that. Different countries have different restrictions on abortion. There were attempts to make abortion legal up to the moment of birth, that we talked about earlier in this thread. I think it was muhvagina who said that it was retarded and made up, but then video of the hearings were shared. Then it was defended. You would defend it too, right? As you've said at any point for any reason is acceptable. But other countries have it only legal for "any reason" up to certain number of weeks and after that only to protect the life of the mother if medically necessary.

(The activist/lawyers in the video we talked about wanted to not just medical reasons but also mental reasons)

 

[Sweetpeaa]

"If you cared about women you'd let them kill babies."
"If you cared about addicts you'd let them pawn your stuff to buy drugs."
"If you cared about pedophiles you'd let them fuck your kids."

How about:

If you cared about women and girls you'd be against abortion because the majority of sex-selective abortions kill females.

Pregnancy is not just an inconvenience. It is a medical risk and very serious. Even women in prime baby making years face life threatening complications. I wouldn't wish pregnancy (forcefully on anyone). For those who get pregnant and choose to carry to term they are making the choice to accept the risks of pregnancy.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

I see this is some new trad insult to normal women because more than one prolifer is using it in this thread

It's less an insult and more of an observation. 'Women' in this thread are behaving like shitty versions of men. They're bawdish; aggressive, ranting, demeaning, etc, etc, etc.

Feminism - modern feminism at the least - seems to be focused on making women into the same sort of shitty men that they should be opposed to, rather than trying to elevate women, as women, into the same place as men. It's just crude.

You joined like last yr. Whatever your autistic pol tard frens said kf was is wrong.

Kiwifarms is a forum for laughing at retarded people on the internet. It's autistic as fuck. You can disagree, but if you're on here, you have autism. A guy who joined at the start told me to, so you're outaged old man.

Also:

Naturalistic fallacy.

I...am genuinely at a loss as to what you're saying here? I wasn't arguing that it not being natural was a bad thing. The full context of the section you quoted was that birth control is a medicine, and that like any medicine has a risk to it as it changes the way your body functions. But that overall I don't think that it's bad. Like, this is the full quote:

I'm fine with comprehensive sex education; and of comprehensive support for birth control. Hell I'm a supporter of socialised healthcare to provide that service. I legit don't understand the dislike of birth control. Birth control doesn't seem to look like it 'causes' promiscuity. It's a safety net. I think I said so in my spergpost?

If people are going to fuck, then they're going to fuck. Sexual promiscuity is the sort of behaviour you try and address by good upbringing and making sure your sons and daughters aren't easy, and are responsible enough to go and get birth control. Unless you have a latex allergy, you shouldn't be barebacking random women, or even your girlfriend actually. Everyone knows how babies are made, everyone knows condoms stop babies being made 99% of the time.

Female hormonal birth control isn't great for you, but neither is literally any medicine. It's a substance that is tailored to mess with your body in a way that it wouldn't naturally be doing. Guys should just buy condoms and be careful. It's a failure of men to not take basic precautions.

So to reiterate:
- Birth control is medicine.
- All medicine has risks to taking it.
- Birth control is still something I support.
- Men should also be wearing condoms regardless. If they don't, that's a failure on there part if there's a pregnancy more than the womans.

It's probably safer in the immediate and mid term than taking paracetamol, it's definitely safer in the mid and short term and long term than taking ibuprofen; which erodes your stomach given time. It's safer than heart disease medicine, probably safer than ant-acids due to the dietary profiles of people who regularly take ant-acids. I am wary of all medicine because I know what goes into them, and what taking them over time can do; even when it's something as simple as an acid neutraliser.

Something being natural doesn't make it good, but by the same merit, something being manufactured doesn't make it good either.

I don't think I've ever said I was against birth control. Have you even been reading what I've been writing? Did you mix me up with someone else?

It was probably a copper IUD she had. They are non-hormonal and kills sperm on contact.

No that was my issue; I mistakenly added the IUD part. It's a three year nexplanon implant. What I get for typing when tired I suppose. If it were an IUD and she was asking us to feel it then I'd have to fist her cervix to do so.

I actually talked to her today and it just seems she got kind of a shitty nurse that didn't really go over much with her. Which is pretty routine for the NHS as is.

How can you know? You've never experienced it. Overly dramatic is just a stereotype about women. If they get real messed up due to a period is probably part of a mental illness.

Because I'm studying medicine and the characteristics of periods are pretty well understood already. Also I said if you're messed up as part of your period then you're probably A) Dramatic, or B) Ill. Mental illness was covered in that. Unless you have something wrong with you your period should not be a dramatically horrific process. If your period is particularly heavy, go see a doctor. If it's particularly painful, go see a doctor. If you are in so much discomfort you cannot function, then you need to see a doctor. These are not a normal part of your menstrual cycle, and if you have been told that being unable to function is a part of your menstrual cycle then the person that told you that is a liar.

If your period has large clots in them (typically anything larger than 2.5cm) go see a doctor, if your periods are heavy enough to bleed through to your outer clothing layer go see a doctor. If your period is painful (not something that can be dealt with via over the counter drugs like ibuprofen) then go see a doctor. If you have both a heavy and painful period then seriously go see a doctor.

I would recommend seeing a doctor every now and again for a check up regardless of how you feel actually. (Unless you're in America, with no health insurance, then you just die I guess?) The reproductive system is not a static thing, and will change. It's also pretty sensitive and like any other part of your body needs taking good care of. There are illnesses that show very few symptoms, but can be noticed in a physical. My grandfather went in for a prod and they found cancer early enough that he didn't even need chemo. If you live in the UK then you have a right to healthcare, use it.

Literally one of the stupidest anti-abortion arguments I've ever heard. You only dislike capitalism when things you disapprove of are profitable. Of course someone is going to make a useful and profitable medication.

I wasn't arguing for it? I literally said in the quote that I have no idea what he's arguing for and was trying to clarify the specific of the question. I disagree with what his argument eventually was. I think companies that exist in a state have a duty to serve the state and providing medicine would be one of those duties.

I'm a Syndicalist, love. I don't like capitalism at all; I am for socialized healthcare, for free birth control, for worker co-ops, and heavy government regulation of markets. I'd cap wealth if I could. My issue is not one of economics.

I just don't like dead babies. It's sort of a moralistic stance rather than an economic one. I did a big spergpost back that basically encapsulated most of my opinion on the entire thing. After that I sort of just started shitposting ngl. This entire thread is just people screaming at each other.

I'll reiterate them here in short hand if you can't be arsed to read my rambling, incoherent word vomit there.

- Abortion is baby killing.
- I don't like baby killing.
- Abortion comes about because of multiple failures on the part of multiple people and society at large.
- Abortion isn't anyone's 'fault' as a result of this. Least of all the womans.
- There are a hundred and one issues to fix before the topic of banning abortions ever becomes relevant.
- Once those issues are fixed there's little reason to ban abortions.
- In the mean time, the current way we go about abortions is something I can live with since the consequences of ending it would be horrific for women involved; much in the same way I disagree with lots of other horrible things but don't really see a good side to banning them entirely. Is that hypocritical? Probably, but I can live with that if the people I care about don't get their lives ruined.

I'm against abortion in principle, but I don't think that banning it outright would be a good idea; and think instead that we should focus on helping women who need abortions. Because I think that I fundamentally disagree with most of the pro-lifers here in that I don't think women are at fault for having an abortion, I don't think they do it on a whim, I don't think most of them are happy with doing it and would prefer to have just not gotten pregnant to start with. I think that we have bigger issues when it comes to womens sexual and physical health than the issue of abortion and by dealing with them; you deal with abortion.

I could go on about like, specific circumstances and whatever, but I think the grug brain take of: 'ABORTION BAD! NO ABORTION ALSO BAD! FIX PROBLEM THAT MAKE NO ABORTION BAD FIRST!'

If I haven't covered everything here then feel free to imagine a mid-40's, culturally catholic remarried mother of four that runs a DV shelter answering the question. Because me and my actual mother share basically the same view on abortion.

Also, just a slight pet peeve. But most of the women posting here are 'feminists' right? Open question, anyone feel free to chip in: What's with the sex insults? The whole 'INCEL!' and 'Have sex!' thing is both obnoxious and kinda retarded at the same time. I'm pretty sure feminism shouldn't be for men measuring their worth via the amount of women they've slept with. That's pretty demeaning to women. I get that this is a retarded thread in a retarded part of the forum; but if you're going to put up the pretense of a debate then stopping and going 'Yeah, well, you've never had sex bro!' like a fifteen year old high school boy is kinda fucking silly. You're free to do it, but it does signal pretty heavily you're not here to actually debate and just wanna shitpost. I've just been posting Hannah Gadsby and female wojacks as a response to it.

 

[Freya]

nobody is "for abortion"

it's a necessary evil

 

[Exigent Circumcisions]

Pregnancy is not just an inconvenience. It is a medical risk and very serious. Even women in prime baby making years face life threatening complications. I wouldn't wish pregnancy (forcefully on anyone).

Trying to fuck my kids is a definite risk that could lead to life threatening complications but I guess as long as the pedophile is willing to take the risk they should feel free.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

Not all women want to have children either. I know it's a shocker for some to accept, but abortions just don't occur do due poverty or ''problems in the world that need to be fixed'' like one poster above me is suggesting. Women aren't obligated to reproduce. That's hard for some to accept but it's apart of our reality.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

That or a dumpster baby. The other alternative. I notice most men who claim to care ''so much'' about abortion don't give a fuck about women in general.

They also don't give a fuck about the baby after it's born. Welfare programs? No way, they don't want that. Women should be punished for having sex with men that aren't them

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Not all women want to have children either. I know it's a shocker for some to accept, but abortions just don't occur do due poverty or ''problems in the world that need to be fixed'' like one poster above me is suggesting. Women aren't obligated to reproduce. That's hard for some to accept but it's apart of our reality.

Do you not consider a lack of contraceptives, or education about contraceptives, or easily available tube tying a problem that needs to be fixed? I do.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Holy shit you just reminded me, one of my friends got her implant (IUD) a few days back and was making us feel it (literally 'Wanna touch my tube!' "No" 'Yeah you do, touch it') and she was convinced it didn't stop her period, or alter her hormones, or do anything but magically prevent pregnancy.

That's nothing. I once woke up middle of the night to see my girlfriend kind of laying backward on the couch trying to remove hers. She'd had the copper IUD for about three weeks and didn't want to have it in for another day. It was too slippery and the angle was hard for her, so I ended up pulling it out of her.

I kinda get why she wanted it out. Ever since she got it, it completely changed her personality. I've seen less dramatic changes in people going on/off SSRI's or methylphenidate. 36 hours later she was back to her old self.

If I hadn't had two other girlfriends who had little issue with it (one said her periods were a little more painful), I'd worry that this colored my view on IUD's.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

nobody is "for abortion"

it's a necessary evil

I disagree.

Not with the necessary evil part; but the idea that nobody is 'for abortion'; if you advocate for allowing if then you 'for abortion'. I am 'for abortion' right now, but if we lived in some hypothetical utopia I'd be against it.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

Do you not consider a lack of contraceptives, or education about contraceptives, or easily available tube tying a problem that needs to be fixed? I do.

''Tube tying'' is not easy to get.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

''Tube tying'' is not easy to get.

I do not understand why you have responded with this.

I asked 'Do you NOT consider a lack of contraceptives, or education about contraceptives, or EASILY AVAILABLE TUBE TYING a problem that needs to be fixed?'

It might be me being autistic as fuck, but I do not understand why you have reiterated a small section of what I have already said; can please expand on it and answer what I have asked.

 

[Sriracha]

At least you know what an ectopic pregnancy is unlike @Zero Day Defense and most prolifers.

A missed miscarriage is not a ectopic pregnancy. A ectopic pregnancy is when the egg implants in the fallopian tubes. The only thing those things have in common is they are both non-viable. A missed miscarriage is just when conception occurs/egg is fertilised but the result is non-viable because there has been a failure in the process and it doesn't result in a growing baby with heartbeat. Usually the body expels everything but sometimes it doesn't and it's better to have a D&C. Ectopic pregnancies are non-viable because even if the baby does have a heartbeat, it won't survive till birth and neither will the mother.

It's also bizarre to me that you assume I'm pro-life. Just because I'm empathetic about baby killing doesn't mean that I think we should be torched if we decide to do it. I think most of the pro-life arguments are fucking retarded because they scream about personal responsibility yet disregard the fact that if someone lacks the capacity to afford birth control or even the self-care to use it correctly, they should still be able to take care of human life. They use retarded scare tactics against birth control despite it being the only thing to prevent pregnancies other than celibacy (which only a tiny part of the population practices) and have absolutely no solutions that are based in reality.

I would like to live in a world where women would never have to have abortions, but that will never, ever happen and has never happened in human history. Since that's impossible, I'd like for there to be less abortion and more birth control and better testing for pregnant women. I empathise with pro-lifers because I genuinely adore kids and am sad about dead babies, but I know that they don't have any of the solutions needed to even reduce abortion on a societal level let alone entirely.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

You're arguing providing birth control, abortions, manufacturing meds goes against the prolifers autonomy for being involved in any indirect way with something they disagree with?

No? I didn't invoke pro-lifer involvement at all. Why would the production of birth control/abortifacents or the performance of abortion procedures involve pro-life proponents? By their taxes? Maybe, but then, I specifically invoked a general "third-party".

That is, anyone else outside the woman and unborn child.

You realize literally no one else tries to get a privilege like that right? Only prolifers want special laws where any health provider can say no to providing birth control and abortion because they're against it for "religious reasons".

I'm assuming none of this makes sense because its premise was a staggeringly bad representation of my argument that you didn't bother to verify.

You already admitted you never fucked a woman or been in an relationship with one romantically

I admitted to not having sex. I've stated that I've been in romantic relationships.

Or are you going to tell me that I'm a liar and that it's impossible to willingly abstain from an activity that I know would bind me profoundly to a woman I can't guarantee I'll marry and will involve me risking getting her pregnant and drastically altering the courses of both our lives well before we're even fundamentally ready to rear children?

yet just believe stuff you read on reddit that every femoid has BPD.

Are you even having a conversation with me, or did you conjure some archetypal incel to do battle with? You're 0 for 3 in understanding any statement of mine that you've chosen to respond to.

At most, I accused the person I said that to of having BPD, but what I actually said was that their nuance detection levels were comparable to someone with BPD.

This is so fucking stupid. This is why raptor is telling you to read the Tard Baby General thread. Cancer cells have a human genome too but we still kill them. Most babies aborted for medical reasons have conditions incompatible with life like no brain. It's not comparable to an amputee who can feel emotions and has a consciousness like a normal human being.

1. Tumors aren't human beings by any metric. Fuck off with that brainless comparison.

2. The growth narrative of an untouched tumor isn't a human being with several organ systems-- it's a bigger tumor, or a more widespread one.

3. Babies are also aborted at the behest of predictive tests with dubious accuracy.

4. In the statement to which you respond, the discussion is of an average fetus hasn't existed enough to develop all its features in the first place because it hasn't existed for long enough. Bringing up the Tard Baby General is disingenuous and you know it-- and that's not because I have no answer for the special pleading you're trying to do.

Call it corporatism and "globalism" all you like but these things are inevitable in a capitalist economic system. If you were truly against it you'd be a socialist.

I don't have to be one or the other, and it's telling that you think I do. Most countries operate by a combination of such philosophies because it's typically understood that they're all tools with excesses that ought to be curbed-- or even more simply, they're just designing what does good by the motivations of the people in power and actual resemblances to these philosophies are incidental.

For example: classically, socialists hate traditional family structures because the family, among other things (e.g. established religious institutions such as the Church) maintain the status quo; the maintenance of the status quo prevents change (functionally speaking, it prevents in particular easy indoctrination of youth adrift in society because of broken homes that leave them neglected).

You can imagine that I would be vehemently against this.

It's less an insult and more of an observation. 'Women' in this thread are behaving like shitty versions of men. They're bawdish; aggressive, ranting, demeaning, etc, etc, etc.

You're the only person whose used the term "discountmen" in this thread, I'm 99.9% certain.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

I do not understand why you have responded with this.

I asked 'Do you NOT consider a lack of contraceptives, or education about contraceptives, or EASILY AVAILABLE TUBE TYING a problem that needs to be fixed?'

It might be me being autistic as fuck, but I do not understand why you have reiterated a small section of what I have already said; can please expand on it and answer what I have asked.

Of all of those things tubal ligation is the most difficult to access hands down. All other things can be accessed without much difficulty. That is a problem.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

A missed miscarriage is not a ectopic pregnancy. A ectopic pregnancy is when the egg implants in the fallopian tubes. The only thing those things have in common is they are both non-viable. A missed miscarriage is just when conception occurs/egg is fertilised but the result is non-viable because there has been a failure in the process and it doesn't result in a growing baby with heartbeat. Usually the body expels everything but sometimes it doesn't and it's better to have a D&C. Ectopic pregnancies are non-viable because even if the baby does have a heartbeat, it won't survive till birth and neither will the mother.

It's also bizarre to me that you assume I'm pro-life. Just because I'm empathetic about baby killing doesn't mean that I think we should be torched if we decide to do it. I think most of the pro-life arguments are fucking retarded because they scream about personal responsibility yet disregard the fact that if someone lacks the capacity to afford birth control or even the self-care to use it correctly, they should still be able to take care of human life. They use retarded scare tactics against birth control despite it being the only thing to prevent pregnancies other than celibacy (which only a tiny part of the population practices) and have absolutely no solutions that are based in reality.

I would like to live in a world where women would never have to have abortions, but that will never, ever happen and has never happened in human history. Since that's impossible, I'd like for there to be less abortion and more birth control and better testing for pregnant women. I empathise with pro-lifers because I genuinely adore kids and am sad about dead babies, but I know that they don't have any of the solutions needed to even reduce abortion on a societal level let alone entirely.

No 'baby' has ever been aborted except under the rarest circumstances. What's 'aborted' looks like a blood clot about 80% of the time.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Of all of those things tubal ligation is the most difficult to access hands down. All other things can be accessed without much difficulty. That is a problem.

Then we're in agreement. I think tube tying should be made easier for women to access.

I do however think contraceptives can be made easier to access, and education about them made better.

My cousins school in the UK didn't give anything beyond the most basic bitch 'education' on contraceptives, only covered condoms and the pill and only for one two hour session in year 8. That's shit. They got more information about IVF than they did that; which, considering they're in a class of 12-14 year olds is retarded. I'm not sure how it works in America though.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Of all of those things tubal ligation is the most difficult to access hands down. All other things can be accessed without much difficulty. That is a problem.

It's expected. No sane doctor is going to irreversably impair normal bodily function without a damn good reason.