The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

So if your dad gets laid off and your parents lose their house and you are forced to move out into the street, you wouldn't have a problem being homeless?
I see a distinction between "this is bad, I do not like this," and "this is bad, it is actually wrong." You don't seem to. Probably because you are an atheist and "actually wrong" just doesn't exist to you. Would I like being homeless? No, of course not. Would I see it as a personal problem I need to solve? Of course. Would I see it as unjust or some kind of social problem that needs solving? No, that's silly.
Me suffering != unjust in all cases. Was the suffering caused by some injustice? Did any person do anything wrong? If not, it's purely personal and I don't see why some guy sitting in his livingroom should go "Oh shit, feetloaf is poor, I need to fix this!" I don't feel that way about others because it would be narcissistic for me to expect them to feel that way about me. I have a sense of perspective regarding my problems.
 
I see a distinction between "this is bad, I do not like this," and "this is bad, it is actually wrong." You don't seem to. Probably because you are an atheist and "actually wrong" just doesn't exist to you. Would I like being homeless? No, of course not. Would I see it as a personal problem I need to solve? Of course. Would I see it as unjust or some kind of social problem that needs solving? No, that's silly.
Me suffering != unjust in all cases. Was the suffering caused by some injustice? Did any person do anything wrong? If not, it's purely personal and I don't see why some guy sitting in his livingroom should go "Oh shit, feetloaf is poor, I need to fix this!" I don't feel that way about others because it would be narcissistic for me to expect them to feel that way about me. I have a sense of perspective regarding my problems.
The whole point is empathy for your fellow human being. You think that a person should be forced to suffer because they gave in to their human urge to have sex
 
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You probably have a tugboat due to your severe autism
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You think that a person should be forced to suffer because they gave in to their human urge to have sex
forced by whom? I don't think you should be forced to suffer, but I also don't give the slightest shit if you do.
The list of people I care about is discrete, and includes my family and friends. Everyone else I do not think about at all.
 
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I see a distinction between "this is bad, I do not like this," and "this is bad, it is actually wrong." You don't seem to. Probably because you are an atheist and "actually wrong" just doesn't exist to you. Would I like being homeless? No, of course not. Would I see it as a personal problem I need to solve? Of course. Would I see it as unjust or some kind of social problem that needs solving? No, that's silly.
Me suffering != unjust in all cases. Was the suffering caused by some injustice? Did any person do anything wrong? If not, it's purely personal and I don't see why some guy sitting in his livingroom should go "Oh shit, feetloaf is poor, I need to fix this!" I don't feel that way about others because it would be narcissistic for me to expect them to feel that way about me. I have a sense of perspective regarding my problems.
I've seen many atheists who subscribe to a sort of "utilitarian" philosophy (whether or not they are able to articulate it in a coherent way). In the absence of religious-based morality, their professed goal is to maximize happiness for the most people.

Since a "clump of cells" cannot experience happiness, then terminating the clump of cells does not decrease the overall level of happiness. However, an unwanted pregnancy decreases the happiness and increases the unhappiness of the parents. Therefore, terminating the "clump of cells" is justified under the rubric of maximizing happiness.
 
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By the fundies who want to ban abortion.
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "You can't solve your suffering if it involves fucking murdering a baby." If you consider that forcing someone to suffer, I consider it totally justified force.
I've seen many atheists who subscribe to a sort of "utilitarian" philosophy (whether or not they are able to articulate it in a coherent way). In the absence of religious-based morality, their professed goal is to maximize happiness for the most people.

Since a "clump of cells" cannot experience happiness, then terminating the clump of cells does not decrease the overall level of happiness. However, an unwanted pregnancy decreases the happiness and increases the unhappiness of the parents. Therefore, terminating the "clump of cells" is justified under the rubric of maximizing happiness.
Yes, which is why they constantly bring up "but the fetus can't even think or feel!" as if it is somehow relevant. To these people there is no right or wrong, only thing-i-like and thing-i-dislike.
 
I've seen many atheists who subscribe to a sort of "utilitarian" philosophy (whether or not they are able to articulate it in a coherent way). In the absence of religious-based morality, their professed goal is to maximize happiness for the most people.

Since a "clump of cells" cannot experience happiness, then terminating the clump of cells does not decrease the overall level of happiness. However, an unwanted pregnancy decreases the happiness and increases the unhappiness of the parents. Therefore, terminating the "clump of cells" is justified under the rubric of maximizing happiness.
The logical conclusion of utilitarianism is that it's acceptable to bayonet a child if it gets you and your friend some money.

That is inherently morally bankrupt.
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "You can't solve your suffering if it involves fucking murdering a baby." If you consider that forcing someone to suffer, I consider it totally justified force.
So yes, you are forcing them to because you're mad that they had sex with a man who isn't you.
Yes, which is why they constantly bring up "but the fetus can't even think or feel!" as if it is somehow relevant. To these people there is no right or wrong, only thing-i-like and thing-i-dislike.
I know your autism makes understanding other's point of views difficult, but not everyone agrees with you that a fetus is a person
 
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So yes, you are forcing them to because you're mad that they had sex with a man who isn't you.
No, it's because murdering a baby is not an acceptable means to any ends.
Why are you hunting for ulterior motives as if this explanation doesn't make sense?
but not everyone agrees with you that a fetus is a person
Who cares what people agree with?
 
No, it's because murdering a baby is not an acceptable means to any ends.
Why are you hunting for ulterior motives as if this explanation doesn't make sense?
Good thing it's not murder and a fetus isn't a baby then.
Who cares what people agree with?
Well, for one thing, what makes your opinion correct and not others?
 
Well, for one thing, what makes your opinion correct and not others?
You see all the arguments in this thread where you try to find some mental gymnastics to explain why the human you are murdering is not a human and is not being murdered? You see how every single one of those attempts totally fails and barely requires any thought from your opponents? That's what.
What makes my opinion correct is reality, dude.
Good thing it's not murder and a fetus isn't a baby then.
Please try to convince me of this, I'm bored.
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Ending human life willingly and with malice aforethought is murder.
We've gone over this.
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It is empty and meaningless hedonism and is no way to live a life.
lol at a member of kiwi farms crying about hedonism.
And we're all sentient clumps of cells.

What's your point?
Embryos and fetuses are not sentient.
Fornication shouldn't happen unless it's with MEEEE!
Fixed it.
 
I'll throw my hat in the ring. Don't care to debate if fetuses are human or not though, because that's irrelevant to me being pro choice. I'm also spiritually inclined (Christian leaning) so not going to debate on the basis of being an immoral "atheist", as some here like to believe prochoicers are.

If its survival depends on another body, its survival or death should be up to the host donating those resources. That would mean limits to abortion when survival is possible outside moms body. It's not murder to not donate my organs, my blood, or any other body part, to ensure the life of another... period.

I see it as a private medical decision, because the woman donating her body can pay with disabilities or death or time or living standards. There's a lot of anti choicers that are hypocritical too, by not giving a shit about IVF legalization, while yapping about abortion.

I always wonder too, what prolifers are thinking when it comes to enforcement when it's concerning a "life" dependent of feeding off another.

If we were to agree it's a separate being, are mother's responsible for it like any other child? If she eats wrong, or not at all, is that child abuse? How about risky sex, with possible diseases? Is smoking and drinking then child abuse? What about taking over the counter meds (ibprofen) that can cause miscarriages? Foods like tuna fish? Dangerous activities? This all too quickly spirals into human rights abuses because person or not, it can not be a separate being from mom. Therefore, subjecting it to the same moral guidelines as other human rights, as if it's le any other individual, does not work out.

Finally, at least prochoicers are limited by common sense, unlike their opposition in many places im the world. Usually anti choicers make it too extreme because once again, it's tricky to give "equal" rights to a being that can't survive outside another human beings body. That's how we end up letting women die from ectopic pregnancies (where death is inevitable, but it's technically an abortion to help them), prosecuting women as murderers for their own suicide attempts, violating basic rights with undisclosed blood tests to convict them for substances, treating miscarriages with suspicion, and making raped girls risk death in child birth. Don't think it'll happen because that's too extreme? All these things have already occurred in the US in recent times. Look up Ohio on ectopic pregnancy. Look up child abuse accusations for eating a poppy seed bagel in PA.

So until artificial wombs can take over, not forcing women to donate their body to support another, that's where I stand.
 
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There's a lot of anti choicers that are hypocritical too, by not giving a shit about IVF legalization, while yapping about abortion.
I'm a Christian and I feel that destroying embryos as a result of IVF or by using them for stem cells is as immoral as abortion.

”Pro-life” means ”pro-life”, not ”pro-some lives when it suits me, but not when we want kids”.
 
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