The Elder Scrolls

[Friendly Primarina]

It sucks that you're getting ganged by stormcloak fanboys, here have a meme.

View attachment 2385601

Tbf it was less the empire support and more the "post giant walls of text without conceding an inch" that annoyed people.

My main problem with the Stormcloaks is them picking a pretty crappy time to start a rebellion.

Sure, go ahead and weaken yourselves and the only army that could stand a chance against the Aldmeri Dominion, all while they use the chaos to strengthen their own forces. And don't tell me that Hammerfell would ally with them, the Nords didn't stand with them when the Empire withdrew from the province.

By all means, have a revolution after the Dominion's out of the picture, but doing so now will only benefit them.

The problem with this is that the Dominion wouldn't be out of the picture unless Ulfric did something. Maybe I'm missing some text or dialog somewhere, but AFAIK there's no indication that the Empire was even in the initial planning stages of a second war. In other words, the Empire had no intention of fighting the Dominion again.

 

[Kingu Cinnamon]

My main problem with the Stormcloaks is them picking a pretty crappy time to start a rebellion.

Sure, go ahead and weaken yourselves and the only army that could stand a chance against the Aldmeri Dominion, all while they use the chaos to strengthen their own forces. And don't tell me that Hammerfell would ally with them, the Nords didn't stand with them when the Empire withdrew from the province.

By all means, have a revolution after the Dominion's out of the picture, but doing so now will only benefit them.

"Just let your friends and family members get unpersoned and tortured because they might be doing something the Thalmor dislikes"
"Ignore that the rich and powerful of Skyrim are buddy-buddy with the Thalmor and are being paid by the empire"
"Just ignore the religious percussion you are facing for your deeply held beliefs, a religion that the empire forced on you in the first place."
"just allow the Altmer to rewrite history and spread propaganda"
"Just allow the Thalmor to have a large military presence in your nation"
"Ignore that Nords made up the backbone of the Imperial Legion during the great war, only for tonnes of them to die and for the empire to sell you down the river with the above"
"Ignore that the Imperials hold utter contempt for your people's customs and think you are all barbarians that make every human look bad even though you have been loyal since day 1"
"Ignore that the Empire is committing war crimes to the point that they have no issues killing healers and executing random civilians in front of members of the high command"
"Ignore the fact that empire has done little/fuck all to help you when you had major issues (Markarth incident, Morrowind refugees, Winterhold collapse) but expects you to die for Cyrodiil"

Do all of this and more for an undetermined amount of time because the Emperor (who ends up being assassinated anyway) has a 4d chess scheme to beat the Altmer in the upcoming 2nd Great War, you just need to wait, even though since the Great War the Empire has been weakened, has Thalmor agents everywhere, has lost one of their provinces that produce some of the finest warriors (Hammerfell) and the other province that provides amazing troops (Skyrim) 50% of the population hates the Empire. TRUST THE PLAN.

Whilst most civil wars/rebellions are started by the rich or by academics, they are fulled by the passion of the common man Most normal people are content to live peaceful lives even if it is shitty because fighting in a war sucks dick. Rebellions happen when people are so upset, that they are willing to die for change. Most Stormcloaks are not thinking about the big picture, they are probably enraged that their father died in the war and their mom was sent to a gulag for praying to Talos. If your country's government tortured your family, you wouldn't be thinking "How does this affect the global power balance of China and the US?"

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

It sucks that you're getting ganged by stormcloak fanboys, here have a meme.

I go with Imperial in the Civil War though because I like Balgruuf and dislike Ulfric. Just because I can recognize that the Empire cannot hold Skyrim doesn't make me a Stormcloak fanboy. It just means I can actually pay attention to the subtext of the story unlike weird ass Imperial fanboys who don't seem to realize that it isn't the Septim Empire anymore.

Lord Imperator is kind of annoying in how little sense his arguments make, he completely ignores the makeup of the current Empire with his weird trade arguments, and how he is just like "Empire wins lol who would even keep fighting the war if Ulfric dies." when in the actual game itself the Stormcloak rebels continue to exist even with Ulfrics death. (same for Imperials with Tullius death)

While it isn't outside the possibility that a new Tiber Septim figure could come out of all of it, it's not really being set up by the games narrative at all so it would be kind of jarring if the next game suddenly has all of the provinces back together just because Titus Mede was assassinated.

AFAIK there's no indication that the Empire was even in the initial planning stages of a second war. In other words, the Empire had no intention of fighting the Dominion again.

Tullius implies there will be another war when you win on the Imperial side of the war. The thing Imperial fanboys seem to miss though is that there isn't a lot the Empire can do to plan for it. They've lost Hammerfell since the great war and Skyrim is now greatly weakened as a result of the Civil War. Meanwhile the Dominion hasn't lost any ground since the war. For how dumb people make the Stormcloaks to be for going to war, they seem to ignore how dumb Cyrodiil is for clinging to control of provinces instead of just allowing them their Independence and working with them in preparation for the next great war.

I'd actually find it fascinating if the Elder Council sanctioned the assassination of Titus Mede specifically to get someone in who is willing to let provinces go and set up diplomatic relations with them. What if the "young and new" thing Wulf was talking about was actually a Confederacy?

So yeah, that's why I'm so down on the Empire despite picking them in the war. For them to just "win" in the next game and just re-establish what they've always been would be boring as hell, especially after the 15 plus year gap between games.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

My main problem with the Stormcloaks is them picking a pretty crappy time to start a rebellion.

Sure, go ahead and weaken yourselves and the only army that could stand a chance against the Aldmeri Dominion, all while they use the chaos to strengthen their own forces. And don't tell me that Hammerfell would ally with them, the Nords didn't stand with them when the Empire withdrew from the province.

By all means, have a revolution after the Dominion's out of the picture, but doing so now will only benefit them.

As I said, if Ulfric had two brain cells to rub together, he'd work with the Empire to set up secret Talos-worship enclaves while setting up a fake civil war to get more Thalmor killed in preparation for the next war.

Have the Stormcloak Rebellion occur, have them fake Torygg's death and blame it on Ulfric, have them make it seem that the Stormcloaks hate the Empire, but in reality, fill the Stormcloak ranks with experienced Legion officers who do hit-and-run attacks against the Thalmor death squads that roam Skyrim, when word comes out that the Stormcloaks are opening up places to worship Talos. Then when the Legion comes to arrest them, they blare a loud horn to signal their charge, which is the message to the Stormcloaks to disperse. The Stormcloaks get what they want-places where Talos can be worshiped and the deaths of more Thalmor. The Empire gets what it wants-less Thalmor to deal with in the upcoming war. Both sides win, and the only losers are the Thalmor.

But of course, Ulfric has less brains than Cobra Commander, (who in the 80s GI Joe show, did set up a false conflict against his puppet candidate in one episode to get the guy elected) so he can't even come up with something as basic as that.

It sucks that you're getting ganged by stormcloak fanboys, here have a meme.

View attachment 2385601

That meme was always funny. LOL

"Just let your friends and family members get unpersoned and tortured because they might be doing something the Thalmor dislikes"
"Ignore that the rich and powerful of Skyrim are buddy-buddy with the Thalmor and are being paid by the empire"
"Just ignore the religious percussion you are facing for your deeply held beliefs, a religion that the empire forced on you in the first place."
"just allow the Altmer to rewrite history and spread propaganda"
"Just allow the Thalmor to have a large military presence in your nation"
"Ignore that Nords made up the backbone of the Imperial Legion during the great war, only for tonnes of them to die and for the empire to sell you down the river with the above"
"Ignore that the Imperials hold utter contempt for your people's customs and think you are all barbarians that make every human look bad even though you have been loyal since day 1"
"Ignore that the Empire is committing war crimes to the point that they have no issues killing healers and executing random civilians in front of members of the high command"
"Ignore the fact that empire has done little/fuck all to help you when you had major issues (Markarth incident, Morrowind refugees, Winterhold collapse) but expects you to die for Cyrodiil"

Do all of this and more for an undetermined amount of time because the Emperor (who ends up being assassinated anyway) has a 4d chess scheme to beat the Altmer in the upcoming 2nd Great War, you just need to wait, even though since the Great War the Empire has been weakened, has Thalmor agents everywhere, has lost one of their provinces that produce some of the finest warriors (Hammerfell) and the other province that provides amazing troops (Skyrim) 50% of the population hates the Empire. TRUST THE PLAN.

Whilst most civil wars/rebellions are started by the rich or by academics, they are fulled by the passion of the common man Most normal people are content to live peaceful lives even if it is shitty because fighting in a war sucks dick. Rebellions happen when people are so upset, that they are willing to die for change. Most Stormcloaks are not thinking about the big picture, they are probably enraged that their father died in the war and their mom was sent to a gulag for praying to Talos. If your country's government tortured your family, you wouldn't be thinking "How does this affect the global power balance of China and the US?"

You do realize that the Thalmor are in Skyrim BECAUSE of Ulfric, right?

Prior to Ulfric storming Markarth, committing war crimes against the Reachmen and demading public Talos worship, the Thalmor were content to leave the Empire be. It was only after that Markarth Incident did the Thalmor butt in on Skyrim for breaking the peace treaty. Which they fully expected, because they were molding Ulfric as an asset during the Great War.

Not to mention that the Stormcloaks are the true buddies of the Thalmor, as even Elenwen's journals talk about how they molded Ulfric into an asset to turn against the Empire and cause mischief against humanity.

Sure, ignore the fact that your beloved Ulfric has the brains of a sloth and gets himself captured twice.

Ignore the fact that the Thalmor are supporting the Stormcloaks behind the scenes because their real enemy is the Empire.

Ignore the fact that the Stormcloaks have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER against the Thalmor if they were to invade Skyrim by sea after the Civil War.

Ignore the fact that the Empire is still wealthy and powerful enough to keep the Dominion out of Cyrodiil.

Also, ignore the fact that Ulfric killed King Torygg for no justifiable reason, and that he could have easily gotten Skyrim out of the Empire if he JUST ASKED TORYGG TO SECEDE. The king was a massive Ulfric Stormcloak fanboy before his idol killed him. In fact, when Ulfric arrived in Solitude, Torygg's court was expecting him to ask the king to have Skyrim secede from the Empire, and the king would have probably said "yes" to his beloved idol if he simply asked.

If I were Ulfric, and I wanted Skyrim to have Talos worship again, I'd have gone with the fake civil war plot as detailed above, or I would have just asked Torygg to take Skyrim out of the Empire. If Torygg took Skyrim out of the Empire, the Jarls would have to follow, since Torygg was the king they elected. The Empire would have no allies in Skyrim, and they would have no choice but to withdraw. The only reason they held onto half of Skyrim during the game was because not all the Jarls supported Ulfric, more than half wanted him dead for killing Torygg and they called in the Imperial army to kill him.

I go with Imperial in the Civil War though because I like Balgruuf and dislike Ulfric. Just because I can recognize that the Empire cannot hold Skyrim doesn't make me a Stormcloak fanboy. It just means I can actually pay attention to the subtext of the story unlike weird ass Imperial fanboys who don't seem to realize that it isn't the Septim Empire anymore.

The Empire isn't even trying to hold on the Skyrim that hard; notice all the Imperial soldiers in Solitude and the Imps who patrol the Stormcloak holds taken in the war talk like Nords. That's because they are Nords. Most of the Imperial Legion is down south defending against the Dominion, and yet the Stormcloaks are held up by some local recruits the Empire bribed to fight on their side.

No shit, the Septim Empire died in Oblivion. It was just the Empire afterwards. Hence why the Blades no longer operated under the purview of the Imperial regime. They walked out the moment the Septims died.

Lord Imperator is kind of annoying in how little sense his arguments make, he completely ignores the makeup of the current Empire with his weird trade arguments, and how he is just like "Empire wins lol who would even keep fighting the war if Ulfric dies." when in the actual game itself the Stormcloak rebels continue to exist even with Ulfrics death. (same for Imperials with Tullius death)

Er, no. Those are just scattered camps that could easily be taken out. The Stormcloak holds are mostly taken. Saying that the rebellion continues to exist just because some remnants are there is like saying that the Confederate States of America still exists because of the KKK. And again, Balgruuf openly states that the trade argument is part of the reason he's siding with the Empire, because trade with Cyrodiil and High Rock brings in the greens. Which is why most Imperial lackeys (Elisif's Court, the Battle-Borns, and the Black-Briars) are loaded with cash while Stormcloak lovers outside of the Silver-Bloods have to be content with beggars' rags and stale bread.

While it isn't outside the possibility that a new Tiber Septim figure could come out of all of it, it's not really being set up by the games narrative at all so it would be kind of jarring if the next game suddenly has all of the provinces back together just because Titus Mede was assassinated.

The Empire doesn't need all the provinces. Shit, I don't even expect the Empire to retake half the Septim lands. But I do expect them to give the Dominion hell in the next war, and seeing as how the Dominion is also a house of cards ready to fall, they're even worse off than an Empire that only has 2 and a half provinces left.

Tullius implies there will be another war when you win on the Imperial side of the war. The thing Imperial fanboys seem to miss though is that there isn't a lot the Empire can do to plan for it. They've lost Hammerfell since the great war and Skyrim is now greatly weakened as a result of the Civil War. Meanwhile the Dominion hasn't lost any ground since the war. For how dumb people make the Stormcloaks to be for going to war, they seem to ignore how dumb Cyrodiil is for clinging to control of provinces instead of just allowing them their Independence and working with them in preparation for the next great war.

Except the Dominion also has a slew of problems of its own. They lost all those men in the war, only to lose Hammerfell, get rid of an incompetent group of swordsmen, and ban a god that the enemy worships behind closed doors anyways. Not to mention Cyrodiil was only holding on to Skyrim because half its Jarls were still loyal, if Ulfric asked Torygg to secede from the Empire, and Torygg takes Skyrim out of the Empire, the Jarls would have obeyed, and the Empire would have been forced to withdraw.

I'd actually find it fascinating if the Elder Council sanctioned the assassination of Titus Mede specifically to get someone in who is willing to let provinces go and set up diplomatic relations with them. What if the "young and new" thing Wulf was talking about was actually a Confederacy?

Let what provinces go? High Rock is still loyal to the Empire, and so is half of Skyrim. The Empire let go of Morrowind, Argonia, and all the other provinces. You're thinking that the Empire is still shackling other provinces to itself, yet the only provinces they're holding on to outside of Cyrodiil is High Rock (which is loyal) and half of Skyrim (whose Jarls despise Ulfric, and they called in the Legion to crush Ulfric's rebellion). It's no different from the Dominion where the only province that has any power is the Summerset Isles, while they hold on to Elsweyr, which is a desert, and they're facing rebels in Valenwood whom they were purging.

So yeah, that's why I'm so down on the Empire despite picking them in the war. For them to just "win" in the next game and just re-establish what they've always been would be boring as hell, especially after the 15 plus year gap between games.

No one expects the Empire to re-establish the old dominion they had over Tamriel in the next game. Shit, they'd be lucky if they hang on to High Rock and Skyrim. But it would survive, one way or another, just as how Byzantium survived for centuries despite losing the Holy Land, Egypt, Italy, and North Africa.

The problem with this is that the Dominion wouldn't be out of the picture unless Ulfric did something. Maybe I'm missing some text or dialog somewhere, but AFAIK there's no indication that the Empire was even in the initial planning stages of a second war. In other words, the Empire had no intention of fighting the Dominion again.

Tullius and Ondolemar both tell you there will be another war again. Tullius tells you after the death of Ulfric that the war with the Thalmor might pop up again, and Ondolemar, the top Thalmor guy in Skyrim aside from Elenwen, OPENLY tells you that the peace won't last and that a second war is coming. If you think the Empire has no intention of fighting the Dominion again, you're not paying attention. In fact, Tullius even tells you that the war in Skyrim is a joke to the people in Cyrodiil, as their real attention is focused down south for Round 2 of the Great War. Part of the reason why the Emperor shoots down General Tullius' requests for reinforcements is because most of the Imperial Army is down south, due to the fact that war with the Thalmor can break out at any time. Part of the reason why the Skyrim Civil War lasts long is because the Empire is preparing to fight the Thalmor again, and the Stormcloaks are an afterthought to them.

So yes, it is stupid to assume that the Empire can climb back to its status pre-Oblivion Crisis anytime soon, but there's nothing wrong with it continuing on as a vestigial empire that can still hang on to two or three provinces and give the Dominion hell, especially when the Dominion lost a lot of guys in the last war for nothing, and the Dominion Altmer Eleves have a far lower birthrate than the humans do.

 

[Kingu Cinnamon]

As I said, if Ulfric had two brain cells to rub together, he'd work with the Empire to set up secret Talos-worship enclaves while setting up a fake civil war to get more Thalmor killed in preparation for the next war.

Have the Stormcloak Rebellion occur, have them fake Torygg's death and blame it on Ulfric, have them make it seem that the Stormcloaks hate the Empire, but in reality, fill the Stormcloak ranks with experienced Legion officers who do hit-and-run attacks against the Thalmor death squads that roam Skyrim, when word comes out that the Stormcloaks are opening up places to worship Talos. Then when the Legion comes to arrest them, they blare a loud horn to signal their charge, which is the message to the Stormcloaks to disperse. The Stormcloaks get what they want-places where Talos can be worshiped and the deaths of more Thalmor. The Empire gets what it wants-less Thalmor to deal with in the upcoming war. Both sides win, and the only losers are the Thalmor.

But of course, Ulfric has less brains than Cobra Commander, (who in the 80s GI Joe show, did set up a false conflict against his puppet candidate in one episode to get the guy elected) so he can't even come up with something as basic as that.

How the fuck do you fake a civil conflict spanning a nation? You would need to get large numbers of people killed and massive amounts of destructuion otherwise people are going to know something is fishy. The Thalmor have Altmer agents all over Skyrim and have probably the most expansive spy network in Tamriel, where the empire has replaced the Blades with the less effective Pentalus Octilus. The number of people needed to pull off this level of a rouse would almost certainly lead to multiple leaks. You can have a war with ulterior motives, but you can't outright fake an entire war.

You do realize that the Thalmor are in Skyrim BECAUSE of Ulfric, right?

Prior to Ulfric storming Markarth, committing war crimes against the Reachmen and demading public Talos worship, the Thalmor were content to leave the Empire be. It was only after that Markarth Incident did the Thalmor butt in on Skyrim for breaking the peace treaty. Which they fully expected, because they were molding Ulfric as an asset during the Great War.

I am quite rusty with the lore but I don't remember any in-game material that states this. I had always thought that the Thalmor have taken a special interest in Skyrim because they are massive Talos stans and is their major god as opposed to Akatosh in Cyrodiil.

Which they fully expected, because they were molding Ulfric as an asset during the Great War.

Not to mention that the Stormcloaks are the true buddies of the Thalmor, as even Elenwen's journals talk about how they molded Ulfric into an asset to turn against the Empire and cause mischief against humanity.

The Thalmor used Ulfric during the Great War and he was convenient with the Markarth incident. The dossier goes on to say that he cant be used as an asset since the Markarth incident. There is nothing to say that the Thalmor are puppeteering the Stormcloaks or that they are working together. The Thalmor state that a Stormcloak victory would be bad for their plans because they want the civil war to go on for as long as possible. A decisive win for either side would be bad for them.

Sure, ignore the fact that your beloved Ulfric has the brains of a sloth and gets himself captured twice.

Ignore the fact that the Thalmor are supporting the Stormcloaks behind the scenes because their real enemy is the Empire.

Ignore the fact that the Stormcloaks have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER against the Thalmor if they were to invade Skyrim by sea after the Civil War.

Ignore the fact that the Empire is still wealthy and powerful enough to keep the Dominion out of Cyrodiil.

I never said I like Ulfric. I think he is a moron and an egotistical, power-hungry cunt who should have left the Reachmen alone.

The Thalmor are also supporting the Empire. You do realize that the Thalmor want to keep both sides in a stalemate to bleed Skyrim dry.

The Nords are some of the best sailors and seamen (lol) in Tamerial only beaten by the Maormer. The Sea of Ghosts and the Northen Coast of Skyrim is a frozen Arctic hellscape with several fortresses. The Dominion would have to either sail past Hammerfell and Highrock or all the way around Tameriel. If the north of Skyrim was such a vunerable area why did the "rich, powerful and wise" empire not reinforce it after the Great War?

The Empire Has to keep most of it's troops at the boarders because they fear an imment invasion by the Dominion and they have Thalmor agents and spys in every nook and cranny. They have lost the Moonsugar from Elyswer, Ebony from Morrowind and all of the taxes from those proveinces. The battlespire is gone. The Mages guild is gone. thry hold 2.5 provences. They have come out of a cival war and Great war almost back to back. The Empire is in it's death throes.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

How the fuck do you fake a civil conflict spanning a nation? You would need to get large numbers of people killed and massive amounts of destructuion otherwise people are going to know something is fishy. The Thalmor have Altmer agents all over Skyrim and have probably the most expansive spy network in Tamriel, where the empire has replaced the Blades with the less effective Pentalus Octilus. The number of people needed to pull off this level of a rouse would almost certainly lead to multiple leaks. You can have a war with ulterior motives, but you can't outright fake an entire war.

Actually, the Thalmor spy network is just as incompetent as the Blades were in ESIV. If it wasn't, they'd have knocked down Whiterun's walls and called for Balgruuf to be arrested. Talos worship is supposed to be banned, the Thalmor have agents all over Skyrim, and yet there an unmistakable shrine to Talos in the middle of the street, complete with a priest of Talos preaching in the town square. If the Thalmor had a spy network worth a damn, they'd have caught on to that by now.

Also, Palpatine would like to say hello. The Clone Wars in the SW Prequels were just one massive fake war where the two heads of state were on the same side. Plus, the only people getting killed would be Thalmor agents. The Imperials can just have everyone the Stormcloaks "killed" be given a new identity and shuffled around someplace, like say, fake the deaths of Torygg and Elisif and have them live in High Rock as Mr. and Mrs. "Snow" while the Imperials cry crocodile tears over their deaths and bemoan that Ulfric is setting up shrines to Talos left and right in Skyrim. When the Thalmor come to arrest them, the Stormcloaks ambush the Thalmor, and whenever the Imps come to assist, they blow a loud horn which signals the Stormcloaks to retreat, all the while, enclaves to worship Talos are set up in the many Nordic tombs that dot Skyrim's landscape. Ulfric gets what he wants, the Empire gets what it wants, and the only losers would be the Thalmor, and by the time they notice something's wrong, it'll be too late.

I am quite rusty with the lore but I don't remember any in-game material that states this. I had always thought that the Thalmor have taken a special interest in Skyrim because they are massive Talos stans and is their major god as opposed to Akatosh in Cyrodiil.

Er, no. The Thalmor don't give a rat's ass about Skyrim and are only interested in prolonging the war so that Imperial troops get tied down fighting Stormcloaks in the north. The Empire was smarter than that, and instead, they paid local Nords to help put down the Stormcloak Rebellion while their real army is down south preparing for Round 2 of the Great War with the Thalmor.

That, and Talos really screwed them over when he invaded Alinor and forced it into his empire. To the Altmer nationalists, Talos worship is akin to worshiping Joe Stalin.

The Thalmor used Ulfric during the Great War and he was convenient with the Markarth incident. The dossier goes on to say that he cant be used as an asset since the Markarth incident. There is nothing to say that the Thalmor are puppeteering the Stormcloaks or that they are working together. The Thalmor state that a Stormcloak victory would be bad for their plans because they want the civil war to go on for as long as possible. A decisive win for either side would be bad for them.

The Thalmor are providing aid to the Stormcloaks through third parties. And the main point of the war was to get the Imperials to send their troops north and weaken the Empire's position in the South. If the war ends, then the Empire focuses its gaze on the Dominion once more, whether or not they keep Skyrim. Tullius even tells you that Cyrodiil barely gives a shit about Skyrim, since they're all focused on fighting the Thalmor again down south.

I never said I like Ulfric. I think he is a moron and an egotistical, power-hungry cunt who should have left the Reachmen alone.

If Ulfric had brains, he'd just ask the king to secede. It's not like the Empire can do anything if Torygg seceded Skyrim from the Empire.

The Thalmor are also supporting the Empire. You do realize that the Thalmor want to keep both sides in a stalemate to bleed Skyrim dry.

To bleed the EMPIRE dry. Not Skyrim. They couldn't give less of a shit about Skyrim, but they want the Empire spending blood and gold fighting the Stormcloaks so they can be softened up for the next war. That is hardly what I'd call "supporting".

The Nords are some of the best sailors and seamen (lol) in Tamerial only beaten by the Maormer. The Sea of Ghosts and the Northen Coast of Skyrim is a frozen Arctic hellscape with several fortresses. The Dominion would have to either sail past Hammerfell and Highrock or all the way around Tameriel. If the north of Skyrim was such a vunerable area why did the "rich, powerful and wise" empire not reinforce it after the Great War?

Because the Thalmor were focusing their entire force down south? Also, the Maomer and the Altmer have been fighting for quite some time, so no, the Thalmor are probably capable of sailing a fleet and fighting at sea, since they've been fighting fucking SEA ELVES for God knows how long.

The Empire Has to keep most of it's troops at the boarders because they fear an imment invasion by the Dominion and they have Thalmor agents and spys in every nook and cranny. They have lost the Moonsugar from Elyswer, Ebony from Morrowind and all of the taxes from those proveinces. The battlespire is gone. The Mages guild is gone. thry hold 2.5 provences. They have come out of a cival war and Great war almost back to back. The Empire is in it's death throes.

Except it's not. Imperial lackeys are still splashing around cash like it's nothing, the Empire is barely trying to hold Skyrim and is still keeping the Dominion at bay, and the Dominion has to rely on tactics like fanning the flames of the Skyrim Civil War to weaken the Empire. If the Empire was at its death throes, it would be taxing its citizens to death while its patsies sell their furniture to fund the war with the Stormcloaks. That isn't what we see. What we do see is that the Empire isn't lacking for coin, and they're still enough of a threat that the Dominion has to play 4D chess moves like using Ulfric as a patsy in order to weaken the Empire. The Empire is wounded, but it can still hang on to what it has.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

No one expects the Empire to re-establish the old dominion they had over Tamriel in the next game. Shit, they'd be lucky if they hang on to High Rock and Skyrim. But it would survive, one way or another, just as how Byzantium survived for centuries despite losing the Holy Land, Egypt, Italy, and North Africa.

WTF? You've been posting the longest fucking posts about how they absolutely will hold them and now you admit they'd be lucky to do it?

And this is exactly the kind of shit we talk about when we say you don't pay attention or make sense. If Cyrodiil loses Skyrim and High Rock, then it's no longer an Empire. It's just Cyrodiil. None of us have argued that Cyrodiil will suddenly die out or disappear. We're saying that the entire subtext was that Cyrodiil and the Medes can no longer hold onto the provinces, hence the "Empire" crumbling.

Also, I don't get why you still ignore the fact that High Rock ignores Tullius requests for aid and still think they are undyingly loyal.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

WTF? You've been posting the longest fucking posts about how they absolutely will hold them and now you admit they'd be lucky to do it?

And this is exactly the kind of shit we talk about when we say you don't pay attention or make sense. If Cyrodiil loses Skyrim and High Rock, then it's no longer an Empire. It's just Cyrodiil. None of us have argued that Cyrodiil will suddenly die out or disappear. We're saying that the entire subtext was that Cyrodiil and the Medes can no longer hold onto the provinces, hence the "Empire" crumbling.

Also, I don't get why you still ignore the fact that High Rock ignores Tullius requests for aid and still think they are undyingly loyal.

How in the hell is the Empire going to lose Skyrim or High Rock? More than half of Skyrim is on their side, and High Rock ain't budging. It'd take the interference of a demigod fighting for the Stormcloaks to get Skyrim out of the Empire's hands, and without that, half of Skyrim, nay, more than half, will remain Imperial, and all Ulfric will have are A) two snow-covered smaller holds, B) his city of Windhelm, and C) the crime-infested shithole known as Riften where the Thieves' Guild is menacing the populace.

The Empire will keep Markarth, Morthal, Solitude, and Falkreath. Ulfric will inevitably attack Whiterun, which means the Empire gets their allegiance, too. Even if things remain a stalemate, it favors the Empire, since they have all the wealthy holds, while Ulfric's holds are either snow-covered wastelands or crime-ridden shitholes. Even his city of Windhelm has a gang of Altmer thieves known as the Summerset Shadows plaguing the populace and robbing people blind.

High Rock also told Ulfric to go fuck himself:

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"

Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."

Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."

Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."

Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

The Emperor likewise refused Tullius' requests for aid, because quite frankly, he doesn't need it. I mean, fuck, Tullius almost won without either one. Tullius can win the war without the aid of High Rock or the Legions from the South, and both High Rock and the Emperor know it. As far as the lore is concerned, High Rock is a stable and wealthy part of the Empire. And the rich parts of Skyrim will remain with the Empire unless the player interferes.

And an empire can be the size of a city state or a continent. Even if it's just Cyrodiil, it can still be an Empire if it calls itself such, since Cyrodiil IS a large country. They'll just have to stop calling themselves the Empire of Tamriel and instead be content with calling themselves the Empire of Cyrodiil. I mean, fuck, Alessia made herself Empress of Cyrodiil, so the first bearer of the Amulet of Kings, blessed by Akatosh, only had Cyrodiil as her province, and yet she still called herself empress and her domains an empire.

 

[Mnutu]

Something I've always wondered: what do the Thalmor actually believe? Like I get "Elven supremacy blah blah" but why did Ancano try to destroy creation? How would destroying Mundus tie in with their beliefs? Is it ever actually stated?

To clarify a bit more, the ironic part of Skyrim is that the Thalmor are, if the creation stories and theology of the world is true, absolutely the good guys in their ultimate goal. The whole of creation is just the dreams of a dying god, that it’s a pointless cycle of misery and suffering. Logically, in such a case, breaking the cycle is about the only good thing you could do. Even if the Thalmor are supremacist assholes who use that goal as an excuse to achieve power, they are objectively correct while humans are wrong.

 

[Kingu Cinnamon]

Actually, the Thalmor spy network is just as incompetent as the Blades were in ESIV. If it wasn't, they'd have knocked down Whiterun's walls and called for Balgruuf to be arrested. Talos worship is supposed to be banned, the Thalmor have agents all over Skyrim, and yet there an unmistakable shrine to Talos in the middle of the street, complete with a priest of Talos preaching in the town square. If the Thalmor had a spy network worth a damn, they'd have caught on to that by now.

Also, Palpatine would like to say hello. The Clone Wars in the SW Prequels were just one massive fake war where the two heads of state were on the same side. Plus, the only people getting killed would be Thalmor agents. The Imperials can just have everyone the Stormcloaks "killed" be given a new identity and shuffled around someplace, like say, fake the deaths of Torygg and Elisif and have them live in High Rock as Mr. and Mrs. "Snow" while the Imperials cry crocodile tears over their deaths and bemoan that Ulfric is setting up shrines to Talos left and right in Skyrim. When the Thalmor come to arrest them, the Stormcloaks ambush the Thalmor, and whenever the Imps come to assist, they blow a loud horn which signals the Stormcloaks to retreat, all the while, enclaves to worship Talos are set up in the many Nordic tombs that dot Skyrim's landscape. Ulfric gets what he wants, the Empire gets what it wants, and the only losers would be the Thalmor, and by the time they notice something's wrong, it'll be too late.

The Thalmor hunted the blades to extinction. Spies don't knock down city walls. Spies != Justicars. they probably know that Hemskir is preaching.

Are you really gonna use some of the worst written media in the last 20 years as an example? Moreover, Palp was a/ Evil and b/ was not faking a war. The Clone Wars had ulterior motives but they were real wars in which billions died. How would you fake the deaths of random soldiers? You don't think that the Thalmor or anyone else would notice that there are no battlefields with hundreds of dead littering them? that there are no mass graves, raids, or sieges? I am sorry my dude, but your plan reads like bad fanfiction.

Er, no. The Thalmor don't give a rat's ass about Skyrim and are only interested in prolonging the war so that Imperial troops get tied down fighting Stormcloaks in the north. The Empire was smarter than that, and instead, they paid local Nords to help put down the Stormcloak Rebellion while their real army is down south preparing for Round 2 of the Great War with the Thalmor.

They are just using a load of resources and man power to perputate a civil war there. The Thalmor hate all of humanity. I also dont know how much of it is the Empire being big brains vs. The Empire overestamating their own power in a WW! style "it will be over by Christmas" deal.

If Ulfric had brains, he'd just ask the king to secede. It's not like the Empire can do anything if Torygg seceded Skyrim from the Empire.

Ulfric knew that it would have been easier to ask Torygg to secede, that's not the point. Ulfric is power hungry and he wanted to be High king.

To bleed the EMPIRE dry. Not Skyrim. They couldn't give less of a shit about Skyrim, but they want the Empire spending blood and gold fighting the Stormcloaks so they can be softened up for the next war. That is hardly what I'd call "supporting".

To bleed them both dry. if the war continues it would bad for both the empire and skyrim. Rembeber that Nords make up a large chunk of the legions foot soliders and the Thalmor hate all of humanity. They will come for Skyrim sooner or later.

Because the Thalmor were focusing their entire force down south? Also, the Maomer and the Altmer have been fighting for quite some time, so no, the Thalmor are probably capable of sailing a fleet and fighting at sea, since they've been fighting fucking SEA ELVES for God knows how long.

Just because your enemy is focusing their forces in onr area does not mean that you should ignore other place that they may invade from. The Nazis built fortifcations all over the french coast not just Calais, even though they thought that Calais was the going to be the focus of the allies. The Altmer have a nazy but the Nords are very experienced saliors and more importantly are familar with their seas. The Sea of Ghosts is a very diffrent place to the Eltheric Ocean and you should never under estimate the power that comes with knowing the land. The greatest armies in every age have been crushed thanks to the information that comes from understanding the lay of the land and sea.

Except it's not. Imperial lackeys are still splashing around cash like it's nothing, the Empire is barely trying to hold Skyrim and is still keeping the Dominion at bay, and the Dominion has to rely on tactics like fanning the flames of the Skyrim Civil War to weaken the Empire. If the Empire was at its death throes, it would be taxing its citizens to death while its patsies sell their furniture to fund the war with the Stormcloaks. That isn't what we see. What we do see is that the Empire isn't lacking for coin, and they're still enough of a threat that the Dominion has to play 4D chess moves like using Ulfric as a patsy in order to weaken the Empire. The Empire is wounded, but it can still hang on to what it has.

You know that the elite of the French and Russian Empire were living it big right until the moment that shit hit the fan. Just because some fat cats are doing well does not mean that the nation as a whole is doing well. As mentioned by others, no one here is claiming that the Empire will lose Cyrodiil, but the continent-wide powerhouse that the Empire was is dying. They have lost over 72% of the nations they held, their god-king dynasty that guided the Empire for hundreds of years is gone. They are still a powerful nation-state, but the Dominion beat them last time, the only setback they have had was the Hammerfell war whereas the Empire has only gotten weaker. You point to the Thalmor using 4d chess as a sign of its weakness but then try to say that the empire is and should be doing more 16d Settlers of Catan. pick one.


Overall I think you have a clear Imperial bias and are underestimating the Stormcloaks and the Dominion by a lot. I also want to apologize for shitting up the thread with blocks of lore ramblings that are probably driving everyone insane.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

To clarify a bit more, the ironic part of Skyrim is that the Thalmor are, if the creation stories and theology of the world is true, absolutely the good guys in their ultimate goal. The whole of creation is just the dreams of a dying god, that it’s a pointless cycle of misery and suffering. Logically, in such a case, breaking the cycle is about the only good thing you could do. Even if the Thalmor are supremacist assholes who use that goal as an excuse to achieve power, they are objectively correct while humans are wrong.

The Thalmor see themselves as the good guys in their eyes. Since to them, everything is a means to an end, and their race has longevity, height, and magic abilities far superior to men and beastfolk, they of course see themselves as the superior race, and breaking the cycle of misery and suffering will benefit all in the long run, so any deaths caused by pursuing such a goal is necessary.

The Thalmor hunted the blades to extinction. Spies don't knock down city walls. Spies != Justicars. they probably know that Hemskir is preaching.

The Blades are a bunch of incompetent nitwits. You give them the Amulet of Kings, and they couldn't even keep it safe from some Daedra Cult during the height of their power. Also, if the Thalmor knew what Heimskr is preaching, they'd have brought in their Justiciars to knock down Whiterun's gates and arrest everyone who sympathizes with him, including the Jarl for letting him preach a banned religion.

Are you really gonna use some of the worst written media in the last 20 years as an example? Moreover, Palp was a/ Evil and b/ was not faking a war. The Clone Wars had ulterior motives but they were real wars in which billions died. How would you fake the deaths of random soldiers? You don't think that the Thalmor or anyone else would notice that there are no battlefields with hundreds of dead littering them? that there are no mass graves, raids, or sieges? I am sorry my dude, but your plan reads like bad fanfiction.

It's nowhere near the worst. Morrowind was far worse than the Prequels. Also, it was a fake war, since they even had automatons and vat-grown troopers fighting most of the battles, and the whole war was meant to kill the Jedi, which both the clones and the droids managed to do. The droids killed Jedi now and then during the war, then when the war was nearing its end, the clones mopped up most of the Jedi as the Galactic Republic was replaced by the Galactic Empire. The populace of the galaxy as a whole remained untouched save for the planets that had battles on them, which meant that old Palpatine had a large workforce and a large pool of recruits for his new Empire.

The Thalmor couldn't notice that one of the biggest holds in Skyrim allowed open Talos worship, nor did they figure out that Elisif and Rikke were also secret Talos worshipers. If they had spies, then they'd know, and both Elisif and Rikke would be getting tortured in some Thalmor dungeon along with Balgruuf. And don't tell me it's because Elisif and Rikke keep their Talos worship a deep secret, because some random faggot (you) who joins the Empire or does quests for Solitude's court can casually find out that these two worship Talos. Which means that the Thalmor spy network isn't as good as you believe.

They are just using a load of resources and man power to perputate a civil war there. The Thalmor hate all of humanity. I also dont know how much of it is the Empire being big brains vs. The Empire overestamating their own power in a WW! style "it will be over by Christmas" deal.

The Thalmor are perpetuating a civil war to get the Imperials to send troops north and weaken their position down south to make them easier to attack from the south. The Imperials didn't fall for it, and instead, the Empire kept most of its troops down south while sending only local recruits paid with gold to fight Ulfric.

Ulfric knew that it would have been easier to ask Torygg to secede, that's not the point. Ulfric is power hungry and he wanted to be High king.

No shit. That's the problem. That's why joining Ulfric isn't the answer. You're better off having the Dragonborn kill Titus Mede II then make a power-play for the Imperial throne than joining Ulfric. That's why my Dragonborn killed Ulfric. She seeks the Imperial throne, so she killed Titus Mede II incognito, while publicly parading herself as the bitch who took Ulfric Stormcloak's head, so the Elder Council would know who to vote in as Titus Mede's successor. Also, Ulfric's an idiot when compared to Tullius, as was evidenced in the start of the game where Tullius was about to take Ulfric's head before Alduin attacked in Helgen.

To bleed them both dry. if the war continues it would bad for both the empire and skyrim. Rembeber that Nords make up a large chunk of the legions foot soliders and the Thalmor hate all of humanity. They will come for Skyrim sooner or later.

The Empire is their bigger foe. The Dominion doesn't give a rat's ass about Skyrim, and as others here have already pointed out, hatred of humans is just a secondary goal for the Dominion, the destruction of Mundus and their return to pre-creation divinity is the real goal of the Thalmor, which is why Ancano tried to blow up the world with the Eye of Magnus. The biggest threat to their plans is the Imperial Army, hence why they stirred up civil war in Skyrim to weaken it so they can finish it off in the next war.

Just because your enemy is focusing their forces in onr area does not mean that you should ignore other place that they may invade from. The Nazis built fortifcations all over the french coast not just Calais, even though they thought that Calais was the going to be the focus of the allies. The Altmer have a nazy but the Nords are very experienced saliors and more importantly are familar with their seas. The Sea of Ghosts is a very diffrent place to the Eltheric Ocean and you should never under estimate the power that comes with knowing the land. The greatest armies in every age have been crushed thanks to the information that comes from understanding the lay of the land and sea.

But the majority of the Imperial Army is down south. And so were the majority of the Dominion's provinces.

You know that the elite of the French and Russian Empire were living it big right until the moment that shit hit the fan. Just because some fat cats are doing well does not mean that the nation as a whole is doing well. As mentioned by others, no one here is claiming that the Empire will lose Cyrodiil, but the continent-wide powerhouse that the Empire was is dying. They have lost over 72% of the nations they held, their god-king dynasty that guided the Empire for hundreds of years is gone. They are still a powerful nation-state, but the Dominion beat them last time, the only setback they have had was the Hammerfell war whereas the Empire has only gotten weaker. You point to the Thalmor using 4d chess as a sign of its weakness but then try to say that the empire is and should be doing more 16d Settlers of Catan. pick one.

Er, no. The French and Russian economies by the end were decimated before the revolutions happened. Meanwhile, the Imperial economy is healthy, as evidenced not only by their patsies being rich and powerful, but also by the fact that they're splashing that cash around to the commoners as well, paying anyone who can hold a sword to fight Ulfric and his band of rebels. If an Empire is wealthy enough not only to have wealthy elites, but to also pay a considerable segment of the populace to fight for them (notice that there is no draft in the Imperial half of Skyrim) then yes, the Empire is far from falling.

Also, the Empire lost most of the nations they held BEFORE the war. They lost Alinor to the Thalmor, along with Valenwood and Elsweyr. They lost Morrowind and Argonia when the two went to war with each other. The only province they lost during the war was Hammerfell, and it was a useless desert anyways that even the Thalmor ended up abandoning. Cyrodiil and High Rock are where most of the Mede Empire gets its money from, as well as the western half of Skyrim which is richer than its crime-ridden eastern half. But that doesn't mean the Empire is dying, since lots of nations lost many of their satellite states and still continue on. Byzantium lost most of its territory during the initial Muslim invasions, yet it lasted 700 years more before finally falling. Spain and Britain are still standing today despite losing most of their territory, and the same could be said of Japan.

The Empire is far from being the superpower it once was, but it's far from the deathbed as well. Especially when the Dominion is also in a similarly bad situation-they couldn't hold on to Hammerfell, they're facing rebellions in Valenwood, and their only other province aside from Alinor is Elsweyr, a desert land ruled by cat-people which isn't as profitable as western Skyrim or High Rock. And of course, the Thalmor back in the Summerset Isles kill over half their infants due to their strict purity standards, which means they don't have the manpower for future wars, meanwhile the Empire has shown that it has that manpower, as they can hold Skyrim with barely any of their heavy infantry while just paying off random Nords to fight Ulfric.

Overall I think you have a clear Imperial bias and are underestimating the Stormcloaks and the Dominion by a lot.

The Stormcloaks are led by a bunch of fucking morons who could have easily gotten what they wanted if they simply asked King Torygg to secede Skyrim from the Empire. Also, their leader is a complete failure of a commander who keeps getting captured-he's worse than Edmure Tully from Game of Thrones. The Dominion is a clever foe, but the lore surrounding them, as well as their provinces, points to them getting their balls crushed in the next war due to them not having a large population to begin with, not to mention that the Khajiit and the Bosmer are not as likely to die fighting to the last man for the Dominion as the Bretons and pro-Imperial Nords are for the Empire. Shit, the pro-Imperial Nords are even willing to kill their own kin for the Empire, whereas you don't see the Khajiit or the Bosmer having the same dedication for the Thalmor cause.

 

[X Pac Heat]

It sucks that you're getting ganged by stormcloak fanboys, here have a meme.

Not a Stormcloak fanboy, I just pay attention to the actual game unlike Star Wars Kid over here. I actually side with Empire in my main playthrough.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Not a Stormcloak fanboy, I just pay attention to the actual game unlike Star Wars Kid over here. I actually side with Empire in my main playthrough.

Pay attention? Is that why you miss half the clues about the Empire in the game?

"HURR DURR, THE EMPIRE IS ABOUT TO FALL!"

The Empire: Has patsies that are filthy rich and splashing cash like it's nothing, can bribe large amounts of the populace to fight for them while stationing most of their army down south to keep the Dominion out, almost won the war in Skyrim if it wasn't for a literal world-eater interfering, the Dominion has to rely on patsies like Ulfric to weaken them from behind the scenes, and aside from Cyrodiil, the Empire still has High Rock and the rich part of Skyrim all to themselves while the Dominion gets a forest land and a desert shithole, along with a country that kills half its babies as their capital.

 

[Plant Aqua Mammal]

When i played Skyrim for both sides, i always felt that no matter what the Altmeri Dominion was going to win overall. The White-Gold Concordant were terms of surrender for the empire in all but name. Hammerfell left the empire because of it, depriving the empire of some of the strongest warriors they could get. The treaty angers the nords which prompts the civil war, which guarantees a weakened Skyrim overall. The Dominion's second offensive will only have to deal with the imperial soldiers again, which they have proven they can defeat, with the taking of Leyawin, Bravil, Anvil and the Imperial City itself. There will be no aid from the redguards and the bretons might stay neutral there as well seeing the Dominion may be the overall safer/smarter play for them.

In game we don't see too much of it because of game limitations, but who knows how many are dying while the dragonborn runs around exploring. If the stormcloaks win, Skyrim becomes independent and the Dominion swoops in and takes it while the Empire builds its strength. It's not going to commit soldiers to save a nation that just beat them back afterall. If the Empire wins the civil war, then the empire has to commit manpower to keeping Skyrim. Lord Imperator says they're keeping the imperial army in Cyrodiil in case of Dominion invasion, but if they hold Skyrim they will have to defend there now as well, splitting their army between two far fronts.

The assassination of the Emperor creates other issues for the empire. Who is going to be the emperor now? A succession crisis could play right into the Thalmor's hands and undermine the empire even further. If people found out that the emperor was assassinated by his own council, what message does that project to the people? to their prospective allies? If the plot stays secret, the perception is going to be that the emperor went to skyrim and then got assassinated. The empire cannot even protect their emperor despite knowing of the assassination attempts(from the Gourmet mission). It's a PR nightmare for the empire either way.

When push comes to shove, the Empire really doesn't have any advantage over the Dominion. The Dominion has more territory, more resources, and isn't internally screwed(that we can see. We need a game that takes place in Summerset so we can see whats REALLY going on there). The battle of the Red Ring was "one" decisive battle but it also crippled the imperial army that will take ages to recover from, while the Dominion can field other soldiers much easier. To anyone thinking the khajiit and wood elves wouldn't help, the offer of Imperial land would make a tempting bribe for them. Elsweyr absorbs Leyawin and the southeast while Valenwood gets the lands north of it. Prime land for both territories to get them to offer warriors.

The Empire: Has patsies that are filthy rich and splashing cash like it's nothing, can bribe large amounts of the populace to fight for them while stationing most of their army down south to keep the Dominion out, almost won the war in Skyrim if it wasn't for a literal world-eater interfering, the Dominion has to rely on patsies like Ulfric to weaken them from behind the scenes, and aside from Cyrodiil, the Empire still has High Rock and the rich part of Skyrim all to themselves while the Dominion gets a forest land and a desert shithole, along with a country that kills half its babies as their capital.

You have nords clinging to their wealth and splashing that cash around despite the circumstances and it means nothing. For all we know, the wood elves and Khajiit are splashing cash around the same way. Stubborn old men and young spoiled brats throwing money around because they think the empire will save them. The nords aren't going to give their all for an empire that already stabbed them in the back once. They fought hard for the empire and the empire surrendered. They dishonored the nords by surrendering and banned Talos which was a major insult to them. You can bribe them, but you're not going to get the same soldiers you got previously. You're going to get soldiers that remember the empire's weakness and insult. You need the nords to get to x location? Well they're taking their sweet time getting there and might not even arrive before it's too late.

Ulfric was saved by a soul eating world eater for sure. But thats Tamriel in a nutshell. I mean, Dagon had the Imperial city in his clutches before Martin turned into a god damn dragon and beat him back. Would it have ended the civil war if Ulfric died there? We will never know. Galmar might have picked up the mantle and led the stormcloaks in his name, claiming the empire is meddling in Skyrim's affairs, or the stormcloaks just fade away. Ulfric got away in a stroke of monumental luck, but he got away and can go on to win the war if the player chooses.

The Dominion uses patsies like Ulfric because it can do so with no consequence. It doesn't need to commit anyone important when a stooge will do the job just as well. Again, Ulfric can go on to WIN the civil war if the player chooses, which makes him a very useful tool indeed.

We don't even know how rich High Rock is at the moment, or if it even IS giving the Empire anything. For all we know, Sentinel, Daggerfall and Wayrest are plotting Daggerfall 2.0. The rich part of Skyrim is dubious at best, since the stormcloaks/forsworn could prey on any tax collector/trade caravan easily enough.

You know Elsweyr isn't JUST a desert right..? Its northern half is desert and grassland, but the southern half is fertile rainforest. It's border area with Valenwood is forested as well. Elsweyr is a rich land for potential, not a "desert shithole".

Apologies for the long post. Just getting my autistic thoughts on this as well.

 

[Mnutu]

When push comes to shove, the Empire really doesn't have any advantage over the Dominion. The Dominion has more territory, more resources, and isn't internally screwed(that we can see. We need a game that takes place in Summerset so we can see whats REALLY going on there). The battle of the Red Ring was "one" decisive battle but it also crippled the imperial army that will take ages to recover from, while the Dominion can field other soldiers much easier. To anyone thinking the khajiit and wood elves wouldn't help, the offer of Imperial land would make a tempting bribe for them. Elsweyr absorbs Leyawin and the southeast while Valenwood gets the lands north of it. Prime land for both territories to get them to offer warriors.

First, Elsweyr and Valenwood are already a part of the Dominion. It’s been a long time but I believe Valenwood folded pretty quickly and Elsewyr followed after the Dominion fucked with the Moons (allegedly). Furthermore, I think it was hinted at in the Mages Guild quest line that Summerset Isle is a complete shitshow and that the Dominion is experiencing internal strife as well as local resistance. It can also be inferred that, as much as they like to assert control over any situation, the Dominion was fought to a draw with the he Empire, struggles to subvert and dominate fucking Hammerfell, and couldn’t prevent the capture and execution of Ulfric by General Tullius in Skyrim. Remember, the Empire was already weak and failing before the Dominion showed up; it doesn’t make the Dominion great or powerful to kick dirt in the eye of a fallen empire, just strong enough to do so. I wouldn’t compare the Visigoths to the Romans in their prime, for example.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

couldn’t prevent the capture and execution of Ulfric by General Tullius in Skyrim

Couldn't prevent the capture, sure. It seemed like they were well on their way to preventing the execution. Why else would Tullius hold Ulfric for days and travel to a location where the Thalmor were waiting for them instead of just executing him on the spot?

I'd go further and ask why Ulfric was not the first one on the chopping block. Sure, you could argue the first guy volunteered, but why is the number two guy the nameless character who isn't even wearing Stormcloak armor?

Sure, it could just be bad Bethesda writing but there would have been so many better ways to handle it.

 

[Plant Aqua Mammal]

First, Elsweyr and Valenwood are already a part of the Dominion. It’s been a long time but I believe Valenwood folded pretty quickly and Elsewyr followed after the Dominion fucked with the Moons (allegedly). Furthermore, I think it was hinted at in the Mages Guild quest line that Summerset Isle is a complete shitshow and that the Dominion is experiencing internal strife as well as local resistance. It can also be inferred that, as much as they like to assert control over any situation, the Dominion was fought to a draw with the he Empire, struggles to subvert and dominate fucking Hammerfell, and couldn’t prevent the capture and execution of Ulfric by General Tullius in Skyrim. Remember, the Empire was already weak and failing before the Dominion showed up; it doesn’t make the Dominion great or powerful to kick dirt in the eye of a fallen empire, just strong enough to do so. I wouldn’t compare the Visigoths to the Romans in their prime, for example.

I agree. Valenwood and Elsweyr are Dominion, but i was bringing them up because talk was going on about them possibly not helping in the upcoming war. Good land is a good motivator.

I would love to see that internal strife and how bad it really is instead of hearsay. Is it that bad or just elven pride making it seem bigger than it is? It may even be the projection of weakness to give its enemies the wrong idea.

The great war was decidedly won by the dominion. Only the battle of the red ring was an imperial victory. A large one, but a very costly one they couldnt do again. The white gold concordant is universally seen as a dominion-sided treaty akin to surrender terms. I agree though with your other point. The empire was weak and crushing it wasnt that big a success compared to stopping it in its prime, but the Dominion still won. Too bad they got their asses stomped by Hammerfell. Hammerfell number 1 currently.

 

[Plant Aqua Mammal]

Couldn't prevent the capture, sure. It seemed like they were well on their way to preventing the execution. Why else would Tullius hold Ulfric for days and travel to a location where the Thalmor were waiting for them instead of just executing him on the spot?

I'd go further and ask why Ulfric was not the first one on the chopping block. Sure, you could argue the first guy volunteered, but why is the number two guy the nameless character who isn't even wearing Stormcloak armor?

Sure, it could just be bad Bethesda writing but there would have been so many better ways to handle it.

Could have been that Tullius thought it was in the bag and just went by protocol. Who could have predicted a dragon interruption?

Realistically, 100% bad writing. Should have killed Ulfric immediately after capture and brought his head to Elisif.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Could have been that Tullius thought it was in the bag and just went by protocol. Who could have predicted a dragon interruption?

IIRC, they say protocol was to take him to Cyrodiil for trial but that he turned around to do the execution. It just doesn't make sense. I will say that the player being put on the block before Ulfric is bad writing, but not the turning around part. That feels like it was deliberately written.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

When i played Skyrim for both sides, i always felt that no matter what the Altmeri Dominion was going to win overall. The White-Gold Concordant were terms of surrender for the empire in all but name. Hammerfell left the empire because of it, depriving the empire of some of the strongest warriors they could get. The treaty angers the nords which prompts the civil war, which guarantees a weakened Skyrim overall. The Dominion's second offensive will only have to deal with the imperial soldiers again, which they have proven they can defeat, with the taking of Leyawin, Bravil, Anvil and the Imperial City itself. There will be no aid from the redguards and the bretons might stay neutral there as well seeing the Dominion may be the overall safer/smarter play for them.

Except again, the Dominion loses if the Empire wins in Skyrim. Because the whole point of the Skyrim Civil War was to weaken the Empire for Round 2 of the Great War, to distract them from the south. If the war in Skyrim is solved, then the Empire turns all their attention down to the south, which makes it harder for the Dominion to win jack shit, especially since the Dominion was pushed out of Cyrodiil while earning no material concessions whatsoever outside of Hammerfell, which was a useless desert anyways. Not to mention that they can't afford losses as much as the Empire can due to their low birthrates and insane purity standards.

In game we don't see too much of it because of game limitations, but who knows how many are dying while the dragonborn runs around exploring. If the stormcloaks win, Skyrim becomes independent and the Dominion swoops in and takes it while the Empire builds its strength. It's not going to commit soldiers to save a nation that just beat them back afterall. If the Empire wins the civil war, then the empire has to commit manpower to keeping Skyrim. Lord Imperator says they're keeping the imperial army in Cyrodiil in case of Dominion invasion, but if they hold Skyrim they will have to defend there now as well, splitting their army between two far fronts.

No, the Nords who joined the Imperial Legion and took out Ulfric end up holding Skyrim. The Empire doesn't send their heavy hitters up north at all. They just militarized the Imperial part of Skyrim for their war with Ulfric, and now that there's plenty of Nord Imperial soldiers running around in the north, that would hardly force the Empire to send their heavy infantry up north, since there's already a shit ton of Nords fighting for them there.

The assassination of the Emperor creates other issues for the empire. Who is going to be the emperor now? A succession crisis could play right into the Thalmor's hands and undermine the empire even further. If people found out that the emperor was assassinated by his own council, what message does that project to the people? to their prospective allies? If the plot stays secret, the perception is going to be that the emperor went to skyrim and then got assassinated. The empire cannot even protect their emperor despite knowing of the assassination attempts(from the Gourmet mission). It's a PR nightmare for the empire either way.

Actually, that was the point of having the Dark Brotherhood kill the Emperor. If the Council did it with their own thugs, that would create civil unrest. But if the Dark Brotherhood did it, then that's just Tamriel for you. People will just assume the Dark Brotherhood made a spectacular comeback and NOT blame the Elder Council.

When push comes to shove, the Empire really doesn't have any advantage over the Dominion. The Dominion has more territory, more resources, and isn't internally screwed(that we can see. We need a game that takes place in Summerset so we can see whats REALLY going on there). The battle of the Red Ring was "one" decisive battle but it also crippled the imperial army that will take ages to recover from, while the Dominion can field other soldiers much easier. To anyone thinking the khajiit and wood elves wouldn't help, the offer of Imperial land would make a tempting bribe for them. Elsweyr absorbs Leyawin and the southeast while Valenwood gets the lands north of it. Prime land for both territories to get them to offer warriors.

No they don't. The Empire has High Rock, Cyrodiil, and the western, richer part of Skyrim, while the Dominion has Valenwood, which they cannot harvest wood or crops from since the forest is considered sacred by the Bosmer, and Elsweyr, a land of mostly desert occupied by the Khajiit, a race that isn't flowing with wealth in the least. Meanwhile, High Rock and western Skyrim are wealthy provinces, as is Cyrodiil. The only province in the Dominion which can equal Cyrodiil in wealth is the Summerset Isles, and that province kills half its potential military/workforce in infancy due to the Thalmor's idiotic purity programs.

You have nords clinging to their wealth and splashing that cash around despite the circumstances and it means nothing. For all we know, the wood elves and Khajiit are splashing cash around the same way. Stubborn old men and young spoiled brats throwing money around because they think the empire will save them. The nords aren't going to give their all for an empire that already stabbed them in the back once. They fought hard for the empire and the empire surrendered. They dishonored the nords by surrendering and banned Talos which was a major insult to them. You can bribe them, but you're not going to get the same soldiers you got previously. You're going to get soldiers that remember the empire's weakness and insult. You need the nords to get to x location? Well they're taking their sweet time getting there and might not even arrive before it's too late.

No they're not. From what we see and hear, the Wood Elves became second-class citizens in their own home, while impoverished Khajiit caravans do what they can to make money off trade, being far less successful than the East Empire Company despite the fact that they come from a land that has the backing and support of the Dominion.

Also, the Imperial Nords are more than happy to kill their own kin to protect Imperial interests. That's dedication that we do not see among the Bosmer or the Khajiit when it comes to them fighting for the Dominion.

Ulfric was saved by a soul eating world eater for sure. But thats Tamriel in a nutshell. I mean, Dagon had the Imperial city in his clutches before Martin turned into a god damn dragon and beat him back. Would it have ended the civil war if Ulfric died there? We will never know. Galmar might have picked up the mantle and led the stormcloaks in his name, claiming the empire is meddling in Skyrim's affairs, or the stormcloaks just fade away. Ulfric got away in a stroke of monumental luck, but he got away and can go on to win the war if the player chooses.

IF the player chooses. If not, the Imps hold the richer half of Skyrim, while the Stormcloaks sulk in the poorer, crime-ridden half of Skyrim.

The Dominion uses patsies like Ulfric because it can do so with no consequence. It doesn't need to commit anyone important when a stooge will do the job just as well. Again, Ulfric can go on to WIN the civil war if the player chooses, which makes him a very useful tool indeed.

So the only way Ulfric can amount to anything is if a demigod helps him? Not very convincing.

We don't even know how rich High Rock is at the moment, or if it even IS giving the Empire anything. For all we know, Sentinel, Daggerfall and Wayrest are plotting Daggerfall 2.0. The rich part of Skyrim is dubious at best, since the stormcloaks/forsworn could prey on any tax collector/trade caravan easily enough.

You know Elsweyr isn't JUST a desert right..? Its northern half is desert and grassland, but the southern half is fertile rainforest. It's border area with Valenwood is forested as well. Elsweyr is a rich land for potential, not a "desert shithole".

How hypocritical of you to say that High Rock isn't rich, but Elsweyr is. High Rock, as Ulfric attests, has no problems with the Empire, and it's a stable, wealthy part of the Empire. Meanwhile, Elsweyr's "potential" is so neglected by the Dominion that the Khajiit would rather risk danger and travel to foreign lands to trade rather than develop the "fertile rainforest" of their own lands. You don't see Bretons fleeing High Rock due to it being destitute, but you do see Khajiit leaving Dominion lands because they can only find wealth elsewhere.

First, Elsweyr and Valenwood are already a part of the Dominion. It’s been a long time but I believe Valenwood folded pretty quickly and Elsewyr followed after the Dominion fucked with the Moons (allegedly). Furthermore, I think it was hinted at in the Mages Guild quest line that Summerset Isle is a complete shitshow and that the Dominion is experiencing internal strife as well as local resistance. It can also be inferred that, as much as they like to assert control over any situation, the Dominion was fought to a draw with the he Empire, struggles to subvert and dominate fucking Hammerfell, and couldn’t prevent the capture and execution of Ulfric by General Tullius in Skyrim. Remember, the Empire was already weak and failing before the Dominion showed up; it doesn’t make the Dominion great or powerful to kick dirt in the eye of a fallen empire, just strong enough to do so. I wouldn’t compare the Visigoths to the Romans in their prime, for example.

The Dominion is a house of cards ready to fall. Quite literally, their empire is held together by duct tape and lies. If the Khajiit discover that the Thalmor tricked them with the moons, they will revolt and leave. Valenwood is already experiencing some anti-Thalmor sentiment, considering that Malborn's family was purged for opposing the Dominion. And the Altmer are only following the Thalmor because the Thalmor claimed to have ended the Oblivion Crisis. The moment they realize it was actually Martin Septim, or the moment some Daedric Prince decides to fuck over the Thalmor for claiming that they decimated the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis, the Altmer will also riot and desert the Thalmor.

If the Empire is a barely-functioning SUV that breaks down after driving for 50 miles, then the Dominion is a broken-down van held together by duct tape and lies that will fall apart as soon as you drive 1 mile.

Couldn't prevent the capture, sure. It seemed like they were well on their way to preventing the execution. Why else would Tullius hold Ulfric for days and travel to a location where the Thalmor were waiting for them instead of just executing him on the spot?

I'd go further and ask why Ulfric was not the first one on the chopping block. Sure, you could argue the first guy volunteered, but why is the number two guy the nameless character who isn't even wearing Stormcloak armor?

Sure, it could just be bad Bethesda writing but there would have been so many better ways to handle it.

No they were not. Ulfric would have been decapitated had Alduin not appeared. The only thing Elenwen could have done to stop Ulfric from dying is if her forces outright attacked the Imperials to rescue Ulfric, and that would destroy the illusion that the Thalmor have nothing to do with the Stormcloaks right off the bat.