The Final Fantasy Thread

[Stab You in the Back]

New boss in FFXIV Patch 5.2.

 

[Shield Breaker]

I still see nothing that the FF7 remake has going for it. It's obviously remolding the plot, tone, and visuals to be in line with post-Sakuguchi FF (especially FF7's sequels and its prequel). Them even inserting some new divine forces ala the Occuria from FFXII or the crystal men from FFXIII makes that super mega ultimate obvious (that happened in the Compilation also). Also, as I pointed out in an older thread it was offcially admitted that there was internal pressure to change Tifa's design for Current Year Concerns.

The worst parts of the remake I'm sure will happen are changing Reno's personality to be in line with Advent Children (slapsticky hyper loud goofball who's "one of the gang" despite being a butcher of slums) and having Zack's demise be like in Crisis Core instead of him getting gunned down like a dog.

Reno's personality was always like AC. It was changed in the translation.

 

[Sayon]

Not in the way you frame it as. If he was supposed to be a hyper hopping loudmouth it would've been obvious from his animations like it was for Heidegger or Palmer or Yuffie or Don Corneo. It wasn't. He had just about no slapstick directed at him either. JP Reno was laidback and playful, not hyper or loud, and took his job seriously while treating it as just a job he does (showing he has no shame).

A question on Reno of the Turks.

A question on Reno of the Turks.

forums.qhimm.com

From thread:

Japanese Reno was somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. The original localization definitely dropped the ball and lost a good chunk of his charm, but Advent Children made the opposite mistake and exaggerated his silliness to the point of absurdity.

 

[John Titor]

The big difference between 6 and 7 in my mind is the graphics. 6 set the gold standard for pixel art graphics in the 16-bit era. Any remake, no matter how much time and effort was put into it, would fail to live up to the original. Meanwhile, 7 is a fucking mess. Its the perfect candidate for a remake because anything they did with the graphics would be an improvement. The fact that they're doing a ground-up remake (rather than just a graphical polish) is just icing on the cake.

I believe it was @Jaimas who said he found out FF7's characters were made in a strange way because it was their first time making a 3D game.

After reading the official short stories in the aftermath of FFX-2, I have a very low opinion of whoever they have writing their fiction. For god's sake, they were basically all about undoing everything and restoring the status quo before FF10 started (bringing back Sin, fuck you). Is this equally terrible?

I know someone who insists that they make a X-3 and I have to ask why would they want to undo the hard work to stop the cycle of death? The only way I can accept a X-3 is if it's a prequel.

I came into some classic FF games for the PS1 recently and was considering playing through the series (only mainline game I played through to completion is IV) but the time sink is extremely off-putting. What are peoples though on the older games? Worth playing through or best left in the past? If anyone has suggestions for tackling (or not) the following that would be nice:

FF Origins (I & II), FF Anthology (IV & V), VI, VII, VIII.

I find FF1 charming in that there's an element of danger because you're not an instant badass who can kill and heal so easily. Grindy but not too much, I got through by killing everything that got in my way. The PSX version should be about the same since it uses a Vancian magic system but adds qol stuff like auto-target. GBA and PSP versions add visual updates and an extra dungeon but I felt they made the game easier.

Anthology: VI is good but this version is terrible due to loading times. V has a shitty translation and can be grindy. GBA versions are better and they tuned down the grindiness in V. VI isn't very grindy and I daresay it's one of the easier titles in the series.

VII fell victim to the "did this cool thing everybody else copied and nobody realizes why it was a big deal".

Other games you didn't mention. Did you like Game of Thrones? Because FFT is pretty close to a GoT game, it's also a strategy game. Although I recommend the PSP version because that one has a far more coherent translation.

 

[Jaimas]

I believe it was @Jaimas who said he found out FF7's characters were made in a strange way because it was their first time making a 3D game.

Yep. It uses a ridiculously inefficient architecture for the models.

You know how if you want to have a character in a game holding something, you have the character model, the item model, and you just affix the two accordingly? FF7 does not do this. FF7 models an entirely new model and gives it its own seperate animation calls. It's a hallmark of early titles.

 

[Sayon]

VII fell victim to the "did this cool thing everybody else copied and nobody realizes why it was a big deal".

I say it fell victim to how just about nobody, especially not in Square, remembers/knows that the game was a surreal and subversive game from the same post-modernist wave in Japan that gave us Utena and Evangelion.

There's the designs, such as how Tifa and Aerith are designed so how you assume them to be at first glance is at odds with their actual personalities (you assume Tifa's some slut rather than the girl-next-door type who's actually not that open on wanting Cloud and Aerith's some pure maiden when she's the one who chases Cloud around openly, especially if you're going from Fanon/Porn Tifa and Compilation Aerith). The setting (a warped version of our world in the 90s). The heroes (mercenaries, ecoterrorists, girls from defeated countries...) and villains (a megacorp and its creations) all being easily modern and connectable to problems like terrorism or ecological disasters (even Sephiroth is ultimately the living representation of Shinra's greed and dominance) rather than time demons or killer trees. Even the triangle of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith can be called revolutionary at the time since it had the hero (Cloud) have two women he shows an obvious interest in with those same women returning said obvious interest (Tifa and Aerith) but rather than choose between them or have either of them choose someone else Sephiroth kills one of them leaving it open to a point.

You can see the change in attitude by comparing Zack's demise in the original with Crisis Core's version:

Final Fantasy VII - Zack's Death (Original)

The Death of Cloud's friend. Squaresoft

youtu.be

Crisis Core Final Fantasy VII : Zack's Death

www.youtube.com

To sum it up, Zack's death in the original is not glorious or glamorous. He gets put down like a dog surrounded by a couple Shinra troops. Nothing about him fending off an entire army with helicopters. FF7 was solid on not glamorizing killing as far as the major cast goes (the non-playable Avalanche members die brutally, Seto sacrifices himself with son spending much of his life hating him, Mr. Shinra gets killed before anyone in Avalanche gets a crack at him and Rufus is if anything even worse, Rufus himself gets blown up by a Weapon (he died Advent Children never happened) showing he was no less arrogant than his father in believing he could rule/use the Planet as he saw fit, Aerith's death comes in as a shock and Cloud just falls apart).

 

[Tanner Glass]

I say it fell victim to how just about nobody, especially not in Square, remembers/knows that the game was a surreal and subversive game from the same post-modernist wave in Japan that gave us Utena and Evangelion.

There's the designs, such as how Tifa and Aerith are designed so how you assume them to be at first glance is at odds with their actual personalities (you assume Tifa's some slut rather than the girl-next-door type who's actually not that open on wanting Cloud and Aerith's some pure maiden when she's the one who chases Cloud around openly, especially if you're going from Fanon/Porn Tifa and Compilation Aerith). The setting (a warped version of our world in the 90s). The heroes (mercenaries, ecoterrorists, girls from defeated countries...) and villains (a megacorp and its creations) all being easily modern and connectable to problems like terrorism or ecological disasters (even Sephiroth is ultimately the living representation of Shinra's greed and dominance) rather than time demons or killer trees. Even the triangle of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith can be called revolutionary at the time since it had the hero (Cloud) have two women he shows an obvious interest in with those same women returning said obvious interest (Tifa and Aerith) but rather than choose between them or have either of them choose someone else Sephiroth kills one of them leaving it open to a point.

You can see the change in attitude by comparing Zack's demise in the original with Crisis Core's version:

Final Fantasy VII - Zack's Death (Original)

The Death of Cloud's friend. Squaresoft

youtu.be

Crisis Core Final Fantasy VII : Zack's Death

www.youtube.com

To sum it up, Zack's death in the original is not glorious or glamorous. He gets put down like a dog surrounded by a couple Shinra troops. Nothing about him fending off an entire army with helicopters. FF7 was solid on not glamorizing killing as far as the major cast goes (the non-playable Avalanche members die brutally, Seto sacrifices himself with son spending much of his life hating him, Mr. Shinra gets killed before anyone in Avalanche gets a crack at him and Rufus is if anything even worse, Rufus himself gets blown up by a Weapon (he died Advent Children never happened) showing he was no less arrogant than his father in believing he could rule/use the Planet as he saw fit, Aerith's death comes in as a shock and Cloud just falls apart).

I think this is all correct - but another thing that is a "cool thing that no on realized" is that Cloud is clearly the main character and hero - but he actually sucks and is really a surrogate for Zack, who was supposed to be the main character and hero.

The game starts with Cloud being a special forces, super elite, mega-badass that both the girls desperately want and the futher along the game you go, the more this all gets torn away until Cloud is just a random NPC who essentially got a lucky shot on the villian who burned his town down. It's a fantastic subversion that you don't see much and I can't think of a game with a similar twist.

There are a few games that come close with a "you are actually the super powerful villian in secret!" twist, but none that are "your character is actually nobody special".

 

[Dr. Geronimo]

I still hold the belief that Nomura was the worst thing to happen to final fantasy, especially 7. He has no clue why people really liked it. God I hate that man.

 

[Sayon]

I left out that FF7's approach to death roots in the death of Sakugachi's mother.

I think this is all correct - but another thing that is a "cool thing that no on realized" is that Cloud is clearly the main character and hero - but he actually sucks and is really a surrogate for Zack, who was supposed to be the main character and hero.

The game starts with Cloud being a special forces, super elite, mega-badass that both the girls desperately want and the futher along the game you go, the more this all gets torn away until Cloud is just a random NPC who essentially got a lucky shot on the villian who burned his town down. It's a fantastic subversion that you don't see much and I can't think of a game with a similar twist.

There are a few games that come close with a "you are actually the super powerful villian in secret!" twist, but none that are "your character is actually nobody special".

Cloud only got involved in Sephiroth's plans since the latter wanted revenge on the former for hurling him down a Mako reactor. That said, the point in FF7 alone isn't that Cloud "sucks." It's that once he relearns who he truly is he should accept himself and finally move on. After all, Tifa still is drawn to him and Aerith was coming closer before her demise, he beats Sephiroth in that final symbolic duel.

This gets understated, but Cloud's personality in his Soldier persona isn't really like Zack's in Crisis Core. Frankly, CC Zack is more like Cloud's personality after he's restored than anyone else (even OG Zack considering how Aerith and Elmyra painted him made him sound shadier than how he's portrayed in CC).

 

[Jaimas]

* An Interesting Synopsis*

I don't disagree, but it's important to remember that when FFVII was greenlit, it was intended as a franchise with years worth of tie-in games. Games are always going to reflect the eras they came in, for better or worse, and when you have one with nearly a decade of content attached to it, retcons, alterations, and re-writes happening isn't just a possibility, it's an inevitability. I don't necessarily think that's a bad. There's a lot I worry about when it comes remakes, retcons, and alterations, from the prospect of censorship to losing something legitimately important like you brought up, but I also think that this gives them the ability to tell the same story in a new way.

I still hold the belief that Nomura was the worst thing to happen to final fantasy, especially 7. He has no clue why people really liked it. God I hate that man.

....Final Fantasy XIII says hello.

Jokes aside, I used to think this too, but then I realized what the real issue was.

Nomura is the sort of Autist that any creative work benefits from, and he's the sort of dev that is in sadly short supply these days. He can come up with outrageously good concepts and setups if allowed. He can also generate complete stupidity with the force of a surface-penetrating warhead. This is not his fault. The same 'Tism that lets someone come up with ideas the way he does is the same 'Tism that gives you the plot twist we had about halfway through FF8.

The issue is that over time, Nomura's outlived a lot of his contemporaries and, over that same time, people have gotten less willing to call him out on his shit. In much the same way Hideo Kojima does, he absolutely needs someone to act as a tard wrangler to let him know when to stop a moment and ground a few of his ideas. He's not had that in years, and it's really not been to the series' benefit.

 

[Tanner Glass]

Cloud only got involved in Sephiroth's plans since the latter wanted revenge on the former for hurling him down a Mako reactor. That said, the point in FF7 alone isn't that Cloud "sucks." It's that once he relearns who he truly is he should accept himself and finally move on. After all, Tifa still is drawn to him and Aerith was coming closer before her demise, he beats Sephiroth in that final symbolic duel.

This gets understated, but Cloud's personality in his Soldier persona isn't really like Zack's in Crisis Core. Frankly, CC Zack is more like Cloud's personality after he's restored than anyone else (even OG Zack considering how Aerith and Elmyra painted him made him sound shadier than how he's portrayed in CC).

Yeah, but the "who he truly is" isn't a super cool, mega-elite, huge dick mercenary who all the ladies love - he's basically a NPC turned science experiment. Tifa is drawn to him in the sense of "what the fuck is your deal" until near the very end, as they kind of knew each other as kids and he shows up years later saying he did and saw things that Tifa knows he didn't. Aerith also is aware that Cloud is lying and even goes so far as to say "I'm looking for the real you" and they aren't super close when she bites it.

Most of what Aerith does is for the planet/people and she basically has her own plan and executes it without any input from anyone else.

He does beat Sephiroth in the final duel - but the interesting point is that it doesn't have to be him. It's an RPG, but Cloud isn't chosen by destiny, he isn't tasked by the gods, he doesn't awaken to some mythical power or find some magical weapon. He just goes and does it, knowing he's basically just a dude. Realistically (save for the mako tampering) there's no reason that anyone else in the party couldn't just take Cloud's place.

 

[Chad Nasty]

The first FF game I ever played was 8 and I fell in love with the series. I really liked 7, but it didn't really measure up to the great time I had playing 8. I am also in the camp of really liking 9, probably more than 8. After 9 I think 10 was mediocre, 10-2 was japanese charlie's angels, didn't bother with 11, 12 had pretty cool combat but shit story, and 14 was okay but I didn't like the leveling system.

 

[Sayon]

Again, they inserted new divine forces into the plot (when the original had no "higher power" besides the Planet or Lifestream) and there's official word that there was internal pressure to change Tifa's design. See:

Square Enix has an ethics department and it told the Final Fantasy 7 remake developers to "restrict" Tifa's chest

www.eurogamer.net

Square Enix explains why it changed Tifa’s breasts in Final Fantasy 7 Remake

What is an ethics department?

www.polygon.com

Yeah, but the "who he truly is" isn't a super cool, mega-elite, huge dick mercenary who all the ladies love - he's basically a NPC turned science experiment. Tifa is drawn to him in the sense of "what the fuck is your deal" until near the very end, as they kind of knew each other as kids and he shows up years later saying he did and saw things that Tifa knows he didn't. Aerith also is aware that Cloud is lying and even goes so far as to say "I'm looking for the real you" and they aren't super close when she bites it.

Most of what Aerith does is for the planet/people and she basically has her own plan and executes it without any input from anyone else.

He does beat Sephiroth in the final duel - but the interesting point is that it doesn't have to be him. It's an RPG, but Cloud isn't chosen by destiny, he isn't tasked by the gods, he doesn't awaken to some mythical power or find some magical weapon. He just goes and does it, knowing he's basically just a dude. Realistically (save for the mako tampering) there's no reason that anyone else in the party couldn't just take Cloud's place.

Eh, Cloud's breakdown at Aerith's demise would point to him being seriously attached to her. And that same line about Aerith wanting to know the real Cloud would point to her seeing past Cloud's persona for who he really is and wanting to get closer with that Cloud. Mind you, official sourcebooks and interviews and novellas list both Tifa and Aerith as romantic options for Cloud. Let alone Cloud and Aerith's appearances in games outside of their universe like Final Fantasy Tactics.

And sure, Cloud wasn't born a hero but I'd say he became capable of it through his conditioning. Hojo's experiments turned him into Soldier material and so enabled Avalanche to even survive (recall Cloud's words on how if Avalanche faced Soldiers at least one would die).

 

[Dr. Geronimo]

Again, they inserted new divine forces into the plot (when the original had no "higher power" besides the Planet or Lifestream) and there's official word that was internal pressure to change Tifa's design. See:

Square Enix has an ethics department and it told the Final Fantasy 7 remake developers to "restrict" Tifa's chest

www.eurogamer.net

Square Enix explains why it changed Tifa’s breasts in Final Fantasy 7 Remake

What is an ethics department?

www.polygon.com

Tifa's tit reduction and covering up both her main outfit and her dress is some real bullshit. Especially with how good she looks in Dissidia.

One of the few questions I do actually want an answer was why the church existed and who they were worshipping. The Cetra were nomads so I really doubt it was to worship the planet.

 

[Sayon]

No doubt that the claim that her change had anything to do with suiting her fighting style was just damage control. Otherwise they might as well make her look like some bulldyke on steroids.

Tifa's current design frankly comes off as an awkward compromise. It's like they were considering remaking her design to remove any lewdness (not just from breasts but her wearing a skirt short enough to give easy panty shots like in Dissidia) but remembered it's too iconic to flat-out remove so they settled on the current design.

 

[Stasi]

Other games you didn't mention. Did you like Game of Thrones? Because FFT is pretty close to a GoT game, it's also a strategy game. Although I recommend the PSP version because that one has a far more coherent translation.

Thanks, I might emulate older ones on the GBA if there is less grind and load times. I have a decent portable emulator so that can be pretty comfy.

I'm a big fan of SRPGs and turn based games and I've played through FFT on the PSP, really good game. Played through FFT Advance too, decent game with some annoying elements. Didn't enjoy the judgment system during battles, just felt like a tacked on extra layer of nonsense. Story was hit and miss too. I like the Neverending Story premise but execution and characters were a bit hit and miss (from memory anyway, years since I played it).

 

[Overcast]

Imagine being a big titted girl who loved Final Fantasy VII as a kid and then find out Tifa’s getting a breast reduction because “ethics”.

 

[HeyYou]

This gets understated, but Cloud's personality in his Soldier persona isn't really like Zack's in Crisis Core. Frankly, CC Zack is more like Cloud's personality after he's restored than anyone else (even OG Zack considering how Aerith and Elmyra painted him made him sound shadier than how he's portrayed in CC).

His SOLDIER persona was never intended to be a complete copy of Zack, it was Cloud's fucked up mind creating a synthesis of what he remembered about Zack and his ideal of what a SOLDIER should be. I wouldn't say that after Cloud's mind is restored that he's more similar to Zack, I'd say he's simply truer to himself. The point of the game is that he shouldn't be chasing Zack's shadow, he's perfectly fine the way he is.

 

[Reverend]

Final Fantasy Tactics was the greatest FF game of all time. Cohesive story, challenging game play, a progression/job system that was fun and versatile, and villains who were properly evil bastards whom you wanted to kill. Plus it mocked the hell out of Christianity, so there was that too.

 

[The Littlest Shitlord]

Thanks, I might emulate older ones on the GBA if there is less grind and load times. I have a decent portable emulator so that can be pretty comfy.

I'm a big fan of SRPGs and turn based games and I've played through FFT on the PSP, really good game. Played through FFT Advance too, decent game with some annoying elements. Didn't enjoy the judgment system during battles, just felt like a tacked on extra layer of nonsense. Story was hit and miss too. I like the Neverending Story premise but execution and characters were a bit hit and miss (from memory anyway, years since I played it).

I seem to recall that the Law system was originally conceived just so people don't use the same "best" abilities all the time, so it is in fact a tacked on extra layer of nonsense. (It would have better to just fucking actually balance abilities, of course). Then they made "laws" a key story element. Then they kept laws when they did the sequel, only watered down enough to make even less sense from a story perspective because of how unpopular they were the first time around, when they could have just decided that now that we're in the real Ivalice none of that shit applies. They just tripled down on a bad initial decision. Quadrupled down, if you count the "judges" and "licenses" in FF12 as remnants of the original failed "law" concept. It's amazing how one bad decision can just rebound through the whole Ivalice Alliance like that.