The Final Fantasy Thread

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The majority of gamers nowadays are younger and that isn't inherently bad. But by the time the bulk of current gamers started playing their first games, the hobby had moved beyond many technical limitations and social stigmas. Being a gamer was first and foremost about status and what games you played, not about how the games were played.

In the old days yes, there was console war bullshit, but it was also contained within the context of how good the gameplay was and how a system or software managed to deal with the limits of available technology. After the GameCube/PS2 era a lot of the technical "problems" were solved and the hobby began to go mainstream as profits rose. At that point many gamers and their discussions were less about gameplay and technology within the hobby and more about the art and culture of the hobby as a means of elevating it and giving the hobbyist a feeling of elitism.

When you're playing and praising games due to how they elevate your own status and not because of how technically proficient they are, you're effectively not a gamer anymore. You're some other thing that I cannot name. Final Fantasy VII is the status game, it has more fans due to its status than probably any other piece of software out there.

And this is the root of the conflict. You had gamers that heard Square's development staff claiming a "faithful remake" of a beloved classic and expected a faithful remake. But the actual bulk of gamers out there are not interested in replaying a classic that they've never actually played. The remake was a means of actually experiencing the classic they have built a persona around without having to deal with "crappy PS1 graphics" and "old music" and "boring gameplay" that they saw when they watched a streamer play the game.

The developers knew this and used the "faithful remake" line to get the old fans to sell the game to the new fans, the intended audience from the start. Now that the game is out and the small minority of old fans are standing around wondering what the fuck happened to their faithful remake, their opinion has become entirely irrelevant. The new generation gets to play FFVII for the first time and enjoy a bastardization that they aren't even aware of. And Square gets to make its money.

It's all a game of numbers and older gamers and gameplay gamers are out in the cold anymore. Nobody cares about gameplay or originality, it's all about status.
 
Radical Cadre said:
It's all a game of numbers and older gamers and gameplay gamers are out in the cold anymore. Nobody cares about gameplay or originality, it's all about status.
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If you're talking from a gameplay perspective 7R probably has the best battle system in the whole series. The only drawback I would say is the cinema walks that keep happening, just let the character move at a normal speed, stop throttling everything.

Originality in games never existed that's an illusion. Video Games have been around since the 1950's, you can look up some early early machines from that era, they're quite interesting and large.
 
Marissa Moira said:
If you're talking from a gameplay perspective 7R probably has the best battle system in the whole series. The only drawback I would say is the cinema walks that keep happening, just let the character move at a normal speed, stop throttling everything.

Originality in games never existed that's an illusion. Video Games have been around since the 1950's, you can look up some early early machines from that era, they're quite interesting and large.
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The gameplay changes are why I bailed out of supporting the remake years ago. And the story changes that are now very apparent are even worse.

Final Fantasy VII is a JRPG, which is to say it is turn-based. Final Fantasy VII Remake is an Action RPG (ARPG) and that is not in the spirit of the original. There are JRPGs that are ARPGs as well, but when I hear that a game is a "JRPG", I understand that it is a turn-based sort of game. When you take away the turn-based nature of FFVII it forces changes across all of the game's systems which otherwise worked very well with one another.

Originality absolutely exists. I own a bunch of those old machines you talk about and there was originality all the way up through the 3D revolution in gaming. Once things shifted to story-focused games, originality and innovation began to die.
 
Radical Cadre said:
Originality absolutely exists. I own a bunch of those old machines you talk about and there was originality all the way up through the 3D revolution in gaming. Once things shifted to story-focused games, originality and innovation began to die.
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One of the first games ever made was a computerized version of tic-tac-toe projected on a huge ass screen complete with visible electric tubes, because ancient jumbotrons were unwieldy behemoths that had a tendency to catch fire if left on long enough.

Story focused games have been around since forever, Zork was a text adventure which are visual novels without the visuals. Lucas Arts and other adventure games also heavily leaned on story.

I dunno what you're talking about because even Action RPGs which were also JRPGs existed back in the heydey of the 16 bit era. Secret of mana being the big one. You have the entire Tales of series which are JPRGs with an action battle system that also started in the 16 bit era. Ys is an action RPG as well.

You just seem to have an extremely limited view of what games are and what came before. I probably have played nigh every JRPG released in America, the 7 Remake is very much a JRPG like what came before. They leaned more in on action than actual turn based, but with the freeze frame it marries the action system with the turn based system perfectly.
 
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No the problem with FFVII Remake is that it isn't "faithful" which is what we were promised and what was advertised until the eleventh hour. That's the problem.

Games like Secret of Mana (which is the one I was thinking of as well) are a good blend of several types of genre but still retain core JRPG aspects. Final Fantasy VII Remake is just a lie built upon a lie. It may be a decent game, but that isn't the point. The point is that the developers are liars, the company lied, and gamers as usual are simply okay with that. There is no principle and there is no respect. People are simply following the money, even if they don't stand to take a share of the profit. These people are stooges, not gamers. Their opinions are meaningless and they are ultimately going to undermine the hobby they claim to love.

Gameplay is dead and gamers killed it.
 
I don't think originality was dying with 3D graphics but I do think there's a distinct shift towards trying to imitate movies as graphics improve. This leads to devs no longer trying to make a game, they just try to make a movie that they begrudgingly put gameplay elements into. Even the shitrat interview admits that test players thought FF7R was a movie at first and that they had to explain it was a videogame.

Unfortunately that means that now videogames are having to carry the burden of being movies on top of being vidya. If anything it's identity confusion and it results in games that look really pretty but are also super mediocre and easily forgotten.
 
Radical Cadre said:
No the problem with FFVII Remake is that it isn't "faithful" which is what we were promised and what was advertised until the eleventh hour. That's the problem.

Games like Secret of Mana (which is the one I was thinking of as well) are a good blend of several types of genre but still retain core JRPG aspects. Final Fantasy VII Remake is just a lie built upon a lie. It may be a decent game, but that isn't the point. The point is that the developers are liars, the company lied, and gamers as usual are simply okay with that. There is no principle and there is no respect. People are simply following the money, even if they don't stand to take a share of the profit. These people are stooges, not gamers. Their opinions are meaningless and they are ultimately going to undermine the hobby they claim to love.

Gameplay is dead and gamers killed it.
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They released the demo months before, people had a chance to play it, they even said it would be midgar only(even the package says this).

There's one loose end towards the end of the game that greatly deviates, but in general people don't have that much of a problem with it since the other 90% went well. The game has more good aspects than bad and that's why people don't really care because it's also adhering to one of the general rules of gaming.

And that general rule is "stories are not needed for games".
 
Marissa Moira said:
They released the demo months before
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The demo came out months before release, but years after the lies were told, repeated, and printed.

Square lied to its customers and Square's customers were happy to eat the shit sandwich. There should be no surprise that people like me have had issues with almost every Square-made game for years now. They are habitual liars and mediocre video game developers. Final Fantasy VII Remake is a slap in the face.
 
Radical Cadre said:
The demo came out months before release, but years after the lies were told, repeated, and printed.

Square lied to its customers and Square's customers were happy to eat the shit sandwich. There should be no surprise that people like me have had issues with almost every Square-made game for years now. They are habitual liars and mediocre video game developers. Final Fantasy VII Remake is a slap in the face.
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More than likely directions changed in production because Square has long ass development cycles. This isn't exactly no-mans skies levels of unfinished and last minute exemptions that you're making this out to be.

Some thing said 5 years before in an interview doesn't really have a long half-life. Especially since the very nature of the medium means a ton of stuff gets scrapped or axed along the way. Shit in games gets cut and altered last minute all the time.
 
I see a lot of game developers as having zero confidence. Their superiors also seem to have very little confidence. They are risk-averse, which has wreaked havoc on our hobby.

This is why I am drawn to developers like Nintendo or Rockstar. There are others as well but these two companies offer a good window into what I like. They do not seem to care where the trends are and they are big enough and confident enough that they can and will do what they want, consequences be dammed. I'd love to see larger companies take the lead again, as opposed to the plethora of indie companies that do make good games, but just can't create a polished-enough product (most of the time) to suit my tastes.

Finding a developer that can take risks and deliver a competent, functioning product is generally what I am drawn to. It has been a rough decade or two.

Though I dislike Rockstar's online monetization aspect. They're very disappointing there. The core of their games are solid though.
 
Radical Cadre said:
I see a lot of game developers as having zero confidence. Their superiors also seem to have very little confidence. They are risk-averse, which has wreaked havoc on our hobby.

This is why I am drawn to developers like Nintendo or Rockstar. There are others as well but these two companies offer a good window into what I like. They do not seem to care where the trends are and they are big enough and confident enough that they can and will do what they want, consequences be dammed. I'd love to see larger companies take the lead again, as opposed to the plethora of indie companies that do make good games, but just can't create a polished-enough product (most of the time) to suit my tastes.

Finding a developer that can take risks and deliver a competent, functioning product is generally what I am drawn to. It has been a rough decade or two.
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You can't just bash square and then say you like Rockstar and Nintendo.

Nintendo has pulled the same shit square has multiple times. Rockstar is nothing but DLC microtransactions now.

GTA bucks is exhibit A on Microtransaction fuckery right next to Fortnite.
 
Nintendo is by no means perfect, but they've been generally consistent over decades. Square dropped off and never came back.

Agree about Rockstar's DLC stuff. Added an edit to that effect. Also fuck me, I put "Rockstar and Nintendo" out of alphabetical order, I need to drink less.

And let's be real. Square will never be on the same level as Nintendo or Rockstar. I absolutely can shit on Square all day, they are mediocre liars. Rockstar makes good games with shit monetization and Nintendo is as consistent as Dragon Quest (which Square had to steal).
 
Radical Cadre said:
Nintendo is by no means perfect, but they've been generally consistent over decades. Square dropped off and never came back.
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Nintendo plummeted off a fucking cliff with the launch of the gamecube and the Switch only started the slow crawl back up.

Mario kart 8 was released in an Unfinished State, the Wii-U as a whole was a disaster, the Wii had awful support and gimped a shitload of stuff gimmick controls, Gamecube had massive dry spells and their first party exclusives were shown back then that they couldn't carry the system alone.
 
Marissa Moira said:
Nintendo plummeted off a fucking cliff with the launch of the gamecube and the Switch only started the slow crawl back up.

Mario kart 8 was released in an Unfinished State, the Wii-U as a whole was a disaster, the Wii had awful support and gimped a shitload of stuff, Gamecube had massive dry spells and their first partty exclusives were shown back then that they couldn't carry the system alone.
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With the exception of some of the "Wii X" shovelware titles, Nintendo's first party games were excellent through the entirety of the time span you have laid out.

OH. Fuck Other M though.

Can we kill them?
 
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Nintendo had trouble finding their footing after the Gamecube because they were trying to make their stupid ideas about having a console that's mobile and functions as a home machine happen. That goal alone really hobbled them for a long ass time. I'm still not convinced that they've managed it with the Switch though at least they have a better showing there than the WiiU.

However Nintendo has managed to strike gold recently and they were smart enough to realize that they need to nurture younger talent and let them take a hack at things. That alone puts them head and shoulders above other developers. They are also doing a new thing where they're being upfront with their customers like when they explained about Metroid being pushed back.

So uh yeah there's a pretty big gulf between Nintendo and other devs right now lmao
 
Radical Cadre said:
With the exception of some of the "Wii X" shovelware titles, Nintendo's first party games were excellent through the entirety of the time span you have laid out.
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All three Donkey Konga games were garbage, Mario kart Wii is the worst in the series, Star Fox Adventures, Star Fox Assault, and Star Fox Wii-U were all bad, Twlight Princess's Wii edition had botched controls and mirrored bullshit because they couldn't fix the problems, Kirby never got above mediocre even after umpteenth installments, All the yoshi games outside of OG yoshi's Island have been bad, The mario RPG series have been raped to death after Thousand Year door, Mario Sports spinoff titles have all been bad outside of the Strikers one. All the NSMB games were souless hacks.

There's a ton of garbage that nintendo has pushed out.
 
Radical Cadre said:
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA

Let's just calm down here. You can still take it back. :lit:

(I ordered TP on GameCube and that's where I played it. GameStop tried to make me change my pre-order. They failed.)
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Really tropical Freeze was probably the only recent Donkey kong title they didn't radically screw up.

64 was beyond tedious with the collecting and Doneky Kong Country returns had awful motion controls for jumping of all things.

By releasing a musical game in a franchise that was capitalized in the 16 bit era for it's platforming, you wanna talk about a slap in the face that's one right there.
 
Now who has the narrow view of what games can be? Kidding! I'm kidding.

Donkey Konga was really fun! Never played the other two. It started raining so I can't go out to shoot, so I'm back here to argue with you. :(

Nintendo didn't make those DKC games anyway. And you glossed over really awesome games like Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Wario Land Shake It and WarioWare Smooth Moves, Excite Truck and ExciteBots, Rhythm Heaven, Metroid Prime 3, Endless Ocean, the Punch-Out remake thing, Kirby's Valium Adventures, Xenogay Chronicles, and a whole bunch more. So many great games to play and that's just the Wii!

Wii U had less, but still had excellent games. Seriously go check out Excite Truck/Bots. Fuck me those games are incredible fun. But I guess none of this is Final Fantasy.

Final Fantasy sucks.

Oh hey, edit here! I don't think Nintendo technically developed Excite Truck/Bots. Play them anyway.
 
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Radical Cadre said:
Now who has the narrow view of what games can be? Kidding! I'm kidding.

Donkey Konga was really fun! Never played the other two. It started raining so I can't go out to shoot, so I'm back here to argue with you. :(

Nintendo didn't make those DKC games anyway. And you glossed over really awesome games like Mario Galaxy, Wii Sports, Wario Land Shake It and WarioWare Smooth Moves, Excite Truck and ExciteBots, Rhythm Heaven, Metroid Prime 3, Endless Ocean, the Punch-Out remake thing, Kirby's Valium Adventures, Xenogay Chronicles, and a whole bunch more. So many great games to play and that's just the Wii!

Wii U had less, but still had excellent games. Seriously go check out Excite Truck/Bots. Fuck me those games are incredible fun. But I guess none of this is Final Fantasy.

Final Fantasy sucks.
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Excite Truck and Excite Bots were watered down versions of San Francisco Rush or Beetle Adventure Racing.

If you're not giving Donkey Konga to nintendo then you can't give them Endless Ocean either. because Endless Ocean was made by the same people who made Everblue 1 and 2 for Playstation which is what Endless Ocean is a direct sequel of.
 
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