The Final Fantasy Thread

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Btw (posted this in the TV Tropes thread), several Tropers really think that Tifa should've been more muscular in the Remake:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15858875470A54421600&page=61

"You know someone that they should've fixed but didn't? Tifa, visually she still looks like a supermodel rather than a MMA fighter. You think she'd have a noticeable six-pack considering she can bench press tanks through nothing but pull ups, push ups, and plenty of juice, not any of the Convenient Sci-Fi Bullsh*t Cloud has."

"Yeah, I wish Tifa was a jacked woman as well.

I tried to tell them that it's not a big deal, as this isn't a realistic game. How'd they respond?

"A. Some things that were with the original could stand to be changed and for the better. You know, like Tifa's "stop being an exceptional individual" line. Somebody could easily make the same argument to keep it to "be faithful to the original".

B. Yeah, the whole "why are you expecting realism" thing is not really a good argument. It comes off as an blanket excuse, especially for a choice of character design."

Oh, and apparently the Japanese fanbase is racist for not liking how Aerith was redesigned in the game:

"Did you see how Japanese fans responded to Aerith? Imagine if they made any real changes to Tifa's design."

"Man was the Aerith hate creepy because it was about her face looking too Western. It's basically flat-out racism."

"When an entire playerbase starts hissing because a character looks "too Western", then yes, it is racism, it isn't just one guy saying this."
 
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LightDragonman1 said:
Btw (posted this in the TV Tropes thread), several Tropers really think that Tifa should've been more muscular in the Remake:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15858875470A54421600&page=61

"You know someone that they should've fixed but didn't? Tifa, visually she still looks like a supermodel rather than a MMA fighter. You think she'd have a noticeable six-pack considering she can bench press tanks through nothing but pull ups, push ups, and plenty of juice, not any of the Convenient Sci-Fi Bullsh*t Cloud has."

"Yeah, I wish Tifa was a jacked woman as well.

I tried to tell them that it's not a big deal, as this isn't a realistic game. How'd they respond?

"A. Some things that were with the original could stand to be changed and for the better. You know, like Tifa's "stop being an exceptional individual" line. Somebody could easily make the same argument to keep it to "be faithful to the original".

B. Yeah, the whole "why are you expecting realism" thing is not really a good argument. It comes off as an blanket excuse, especially for a choice of character design."

Oh, and apparently the Japanese fanbase is racist for not liking how Aerith was redesigned in the game:

"Did you see how Japanese fans responded to Aerith? Imagine if they made any real changes to Tifa's design."

"Man was the Aerith hate creepy because it was about her face looking too Western. It's basically flat-out racism."

"When an entire playerbase starts hissing because a character looks "too Western", then yes, it is racism, it isn't just one guy saying this."
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But I thought only white people could be racist
 
LightDragonman1 said:
Btw (posted this in the TV Tropes thread), several Tropers really think that Tifa should've been more muscular in the Remake:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15858875470A54421600&page=61

"You know someone that they should've fixed but didn't? Tifa, visually she still looks like a supermodel rather than a MMA fighter. You think she'd have a noticeable six-pack considering she can bench press tanks through nothing but pull ups, push ups, and plenty of juice, not any of the Convenient Sci-Fi Bullsh*t Cloud has."

"Yeah, I wish Tifa was a jacked woman as well.

I tried to tell them that it's not a big deal, as this isn't a realistic game. How'd they respond?

"A. Some things that were with the original could stand to be changed and for the better. You know, like Tifa's "stop being an exceptional individual" line. Somebody could easily make the same argument to keep it to "be faithful to the original".

B. Yeah, the whole "why are you expecting realism" thing is not really a good argument. It comes off as an blanket excuse, especially for a choice of character design."

Oh, and apparently the Japanese fanbase is racist for not liking how Aerith was redesigned in the game:

"Did you see how Japanese fans responded to Aerith? Imagine if they made any real changes to Tifa's design."

"Man was the Aerith hate creepy because it was about her face looking too Western. It's basically flat-out racism."

"When an entire playerbase starts hissing because a character looks "too Western", then yes, it is racism, it isn't just one guy saying this."
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Wth. Besides perhaps Advent Children, which even then I would question, since when has Aeris (never mind the other characters besides Tseng) ever had a more "Asian/Japanese" look? That's one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

As for Tifa, I wouldn't mind if they gave her a more lean muscular look just as long as she didn't appear bigger than say Cloud or most of the other male characters.
 
LightDragonman1 said:
"When an entire playerbase starts hissing because a character looks "too Western", then yes, it is racism, it isn't just one guy saying this."
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This is literally the first time I’ve heard this complaint in the hours of FF7R commentary that I have listened to, so they must be posting in one of the smallest bubbles on the web and I hope they stay there.
 
It caused some waves on social media when the first trailer came out and the Japs on twitter started flipping out because she looked white. /v/ also discussed it and complained that she didn't look Japanese enough.
 
Shield Breaker said:
His translation. He was super butthurt people preferred Espers to Phantom Beasts.
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I mean the guy in the vid i posted feels kind of like a dweeb. So i dont take his word for it as a guy i would consult with interms of what would make sense interms of translating a game to english. Also i kind of lost my patience when he started just talking about absolute nonsensical thing outside the translation so yeah. Though its the only vid i found

FF6 wiki https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Esper_(Final_Fantasy_VI)
幻獣 (Genjū?, lit. Phantom Beast)
Also i sort of do legit hate Ted Woolsey translations, they feel so dorky in my view. I sort of wished they had a translation that tried to feel mainly closest to the original script. But yeah

Btw i checked Wiki.. guess what
Eidolon
You know? Like in FF4. I guess you cant use that XD
 
Marissa Moira said:
If you were to bring Amano's artstyle into 3D, shit is also going to look really weird. Everyone is going to be like ghosts wearing gaudy costumes. That would also be very offputting to what's considered the norm on how a modern final fantasy game is supposed to look.
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I couldn't disagree more with this statement, I think Amano's artstyle realized in 3d would look amazing and would draw people's attention more than "generic realism with magic".

haurchefant said:
It caused some waves on social media when the first trailer came out and the Japs on twitter started flipping out because she looked white. /v/ also discussed it and complained that she didn't look Japanese enough.
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Why wasn't there backlash when she showed up looking exactly the same in Kingdom Hearts like two decades ago? Why is everyone so race focused in 2020?
 
TheKatIsNowGone said:
I couldn't disagree more with this statement, I think Amano's artstyle realized in 3d would look amazing and would draw people's attention more than "generic realism with magic".
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The reason why Dissidia looks the way it does is because early on they did try, and it required far most post effects than normal and made the environments look unappealing and the characters look off. So they modernized the characters from the first 6 games because that was the path of least resistance. Post effects also don't lend well to action games since they can cause blurring

And this was with an ink outline and painterly effects for textures trying to ape the look. Guilty Gear did something similar but it worked for them since they use bright solid colors.

Anything washed out or watercolor really tends to look like ass, Unreal doesn't take that type of texturing well. It mostly has to do with the alpha maps and how they're done with transparencies. Not only that since watercolor is always partially transparent you have to figure in light reflections for everything. They will make shit look see through in Unreal.

They don't seem to be returning to turnbased any time soon, so fast paced games need you to be able to see stuff clearly on the screen. FF7R's fights got real intense on hard, the bahamut/Ifrit fight is probably one of the hardest in the series.
 
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Marissa Moira said:
The reason why Dissidia looks the way it does is because early on they did try, and it required far most post effects than normal and made the environments look unappealing and the characters look off. So they modernized the characters from the first 6 games because that was the path of least resistance. Post effects also don't lend well to action games since they can cause blurring

And this was with an ink outline and painterly effects for textures trying to ape the look. Guilty Gear did something similar but it worked for them since they use bright solid colors.

Anything washed out or watercolor really tends to look like ass, Unreal doesn't take that type of texturing well. It mostly has to do with the alpha maps and how they're done with transparencies. Not only that since watercolor is always partially transparent you have to figure in light reflections for everything. They will make shit look see through in Unreal.

They don't seem to be returning to turnbased any time soon, so fast paced games need you to be able to see stuff clearly on the screen. FF7R's fights got real intense on hard, the bahamut/Ifrit fight is probably one of the hardest in the series.
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If every developer let themselves be limited by unreal engine and what convention says should be done then no innovative games would have ever been made. Do I think Square Enix could ever do that style right: Probably not. But to be fair modern Square Enix sucks at game development.

Also I'm pretty sure cel-shading isn't impossible in unreal engine, I don't work in unreal, but every engine I've worked in can do it so...
 
TheKatIsNowGone said:
I couldn't disagree more with this statement, I think Amano's artstyle realized in 3d would look amazing and would draw people's attention more than "generic realism with magic".


Why wasn't there backlash when she showed up looking exactly the same in Kingdom Hearts like two decades ago? Why is everyone so race focused in 2020?
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The race thing is trendy much like SJWism and antiSJWism. Cracker gamers screech autistically because they only want to masturbate to azn ladies as a way to own the white feminist libs as far as i can tell. We'll see how long it lasts.
 
TheKatIsNowGone said:
If every developer let themselves be limited by unreal engine and what convention says should be done then no innovative games would have ever been made. Do I think Square Enix could ever do that style right: Probably not. But to be fair modern Square Enix sucks at game development.

Also I'm pretty sure cel-shading isn't impossible in unreal engine, I don't work in unreal, but every engine I've worked in can do it so...
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Amano's art would not be cell shaded. That's kind of the issue, I used guilty gear as an example because they went really intricate into UV maps and textures to pull off a look that wasn't normally intended.

amano.jpg

You'll notice there's about a half dozen different paint textures used in a single picture. He can make these extremely pale detailed paintings but his whole style kind of falls apart if shit has to move and animate. For 2D sprites it worked fine, but now you're talking about Amano's style seeping into the landscapes and 3d Environments and having the player be able to identify what shit is. A big appeal is usualy the amount of detail clutter he puts into things and he'll leave some spaces for contrast.

Closest thing to an actual Amano styled human was probably Yorda from Ico.
yorda.jpg
c

But ico's enironments were nothing like how Amano draws them.

For like a character design or creature design only, it would be manageable. But like a game where you're like walking inside an amano painting and have to see plants, trees, and other shit, it would be really really abstract.
 
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Marissa Moira said:
Amano's art would not be cell shaded. That's kind of the issue, I used guilty gear as an example because they went really intricate into UV maps and textures to pull off a look that wasn't normally intended.

View attachment 1321038

You'll notice there's about a half dozen different paint textures used in a single picture. He can make these extremely pale detailed paintings but his whole style kind of falls apart if shit has to move and animate. For 2D sprites it worked fine, but now you're talking about Amano's style seeping into the landscapes and 3d Environments and having the player be able to identify what shit is. A big appeal is usualy the amount of detail clutter he puts into things and he'll leave some spaces for contrast.

Closest thing to an actual Amano styled human was probably Yorda from Ico.
View attachment 1321051c

But ico's enironments were nothing like how Amano draws them.

For like a character design or creature design only, it would be manageable. But like a game where you're like walking inside an amano painting and have to see plants, trees, and other shit, it would be really really abstract.
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Or you could look at a little game called Okami. By the way a skilled developer should be able to make the style, it's just a matter of programming shaders and making good models. That you think anything is out of the realm of game development tells me you don't know much about it.
 
TheKatIsNowGone said:
Or you could look at a little game called Okami. By the way a skilled developer should be able to make the style, it's just a matter of programming shaders and making good models. That you think anything is out of the realm of game development tells me you don't know much about it.
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Okami isn't anywhere close to Amano's art style. That's like comparing Dragon ball Z to DaVinci

Making shaders and models is one thing but it has to work in motion. If shit is too abstract in the chaos of normal gameplay you won't be able to tell whats going on. Like you're able to make a level out of a Roger Dean painting, because while it is somewhat abstract, there's structure to the scenes he paints. Amano just has crazy bullshit just be everywhere.

Have you ever made cloth try and function with a rig? Or fluid? It's a nightmare and both those things are very prominent in how Amano designs characters. You can make a 100% accurate sculpture of an amano character but once it gets to animation it's going to be a ballbreaking endeavor.

By going "it's just a matter of programming" isn't really the case. His whole style just isn't friendly to any type of animation It's not a bad thing, it's a normal thing that tends to happen with many styles. And not only that 99% of game programming isn't anything secure or solid to begin with. For 3d you need to make blueprints or diagrams of everything, so everything has to be broken down in 2d first. That's counter to how Amano designs things, he's not that methodical when it comes to stuff like that.

Renders and Engines are going to handle transparencies different as well and each one has limitations. For example, Arnold is one of the most common ones and that doesn't read alpha maps like how Vray does. You usually have to reverse the map for it to read properly and remove the opacity from the geometry.

So you're kind of stuck in the position where you're more than likely going to have to make sacrifices to the art style to suit the gameplay, or sacrifice the gameplay to suit the art style(i.e. walking sim).
 
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Marissa Moira said:
Okami isn't anywhere close to Amano's art style.

Making shaders and models is one thing but it has to work in motion. If shit is too abstract in the chaos of normal gameplay you won't be able to tell whats going on. Like you're able to make a level out of a Roger Dean painting, because while it is somewhat abstract, there's structure to the scenes he paints. Amano just has crazy bullshit just be everywhere.

Have you ever made cloth try and function with a rig? Or fluid? It's a nightmare and both those things are very prominent in how Amano designs characters. You can make a 100% accurate sculpture of an amano character but once it gets to animation it's going to be a ballbreaking endeavor.

By going "it's just a matter of programming" isn't really the case. His whole style just isn't friendly to any type of animation It's not a bad thing, it's a normal thing that tends to happen with many styles.
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Sounds like you have a limited imagination and you like to pretend your limitations are the rules of the world. Would it be difficult to capture his style? Absolutely. Impossible though? Nope. Would it look bad if done right? Nope. A skilled developer can make just about anything happen, that's why they're so valuable. You act like no one's ever created a visually complex style or that complicated models don't happen and I really don't know where you get that from. This generation is full of models more complicated than what it would take to make an Amano styled game.

Visually busy games are the order of the day this generation. Frankly I think Amano's art style is restrained compared to a lot of games these days. Just because you once tried to rig cloth and fucked it up doesn't mean it's some arcane magic that no one knows.
 
I think Marissa Moira has a point... The fact that no one has yet put out a product similar to the complexity of his paintings is rather telling. It's not impossible but it's such a complex endeavor I can't imagine anyone who would commit to that.
 
TheKatIsNowGone said:
Sounds like you have a limited imagination and you like to pretend your limitations are the rules of the world. Would it be difficult to capture his style? Absolutely. Impossible though? Nope. Would it look bad if done right? Nope. A skilled developer can make just about anything happen, that's why they're so valuable. You act like no one's ever created a visually complex style or that complicated models don't happen and I really don't know where you get that from. This generation is full of models more complicated than what it would take to make an Amano styled game.

Visually busy games are the order of the day this generation. Frankly I think Amano's art style is restrained compared to a lot of games these days. Just because you once tried to rig cloth and fucked it up doesn't mean it's some arcane magic that no one knows.
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There's visually busy and visually muddled, you're looking closer to muddled with Amano if you want his style unfiltered in 3 dimensions

So you start having to remove or change aspects of shit and that's normal when you're handling concept art.

level design layouts are usually drawn in isometric view for 3D games when it comes from taking the initial concept art and changing it into something that could possibly be playable, but before you start modeling. Amano doesn't make shit for that intention so none of his stuff is designed with that process in mind, he makes shit that gives others a general direction to go in.

He's a perfectly fine concept artist, but his stuff could not be taken from start to finish without heavy altering by other people.
 
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