The Final Fantasy Thread

[Shield Breaker]

No - that happens after the Remake.

Spoiler: FF7R Spoilers

But a lot of people that were supposed to die (Biggs, Wedge, Jesse) are somehow not dead and they even went so far as to imply that Zack is not dead.

They basically are writing off the PS1 FF7 as the game where all the bad shit happens so I can see them keeping Aerith alive, for a while at least.

The Zack you see is from an alternative reality.

 

[squinut]

Something that I don't often see taken into consideration when talking about this is the entire context surrounding Aerith's death. The reason it's so shocking in the original is not just because she's a permanent party member who's close to Cloud, but also because she was very much crucial in stopping Sephiroth and solving the plot in the process. Her death is a pretty big twist in the narrative since she matters so much to the planet's survival. It wouldn't make any sense if they killed Tifa instead since the story would change so dramatically it would defeat the point of making a remake in the first place.

Oh wait, never mind, I guess they can do that now because "we don't know where it's going to go so it's good" and "the story in the original is not worth revisiting anyway". Fuck me.

What? They never said anything like that in any of the interviews. If anything, they keep restating the importance of "keeping what made the original game good but expanding it further and improving on things". So many of you sour grapes immediately take the ending scenes as proof that Squeenix is going to change things up so drastically that FF7R becomes unrecognisable, but ignore the 90% of the game that show you exactly how much they know what fans love about the original.

Kitase: I personally envisioned quite a dramatic change overall, but our director; Tetsuya Nomura and co-director; Naoki Hamaguchi, wanted to keep the beloved aspects in the original as much as possible. Eventually the development team decided to focus on respecting the original while adding in new elements, ensuring a delicate balance between the two.

If you're upset about the likelihood of certain crucial story beats happening, there's more direct evidence of it happening than what the last chapter would have you think. If you watch Aerith's resolution scene and compare it to Tifa's and Barret's, hers is the only one that features the LIFESTREAM in the background, and when Cloud moves to grabs her all he gets are Mako particles. Her dialogue with him ALSO heavily implies that she comes from a point in time where her death has occured, and she knows how much pain and suffering it will bring to him as a result. I know you're gonna argue about this being alternate timeline shenanigans, but it shows that Squeenix is aware of the importance of this story beat, and they aren't gonna ignore it or push it to the curb seeing as they are literally rewarding you with an EARLY GOODBYE scene for the eventual traumatic event that's gonna happen.

 

[Be patient I have lurkism]

What? They never said anything like that in any of the interviews. If anything, they keep restating the importance of "keeping what made the original game good but expanding it further and improving on things". So many of you sour grapes immediately take the ending scenes as proof that Squeenix is going to change things up so drastically that FF7R becomes unrecognisable, but ignore the 90% of the game that show you exactly how much they know what fans love about the original.



If you're upset about the likelihood of certain crucial story beats happening, there's more direct evidence of it happening than what the last chapter would have you think. If you watch Aerith's resolution scene and compare it to Tifa's and Barret's, hers is the only one that features the LIFESTREAM in the background, and when Cloud moves to grabs her all he gets are Mako particles. Her dialogue with him ALSO heavily implies that she comes from a point in time where her death has occured, and she knows how much pain and suffering it will bring to him as a result. I know you're gonna argue about this being alternate timeline shenanigans, but it shows that Squeenix is aware of the importance of this story beat, and they aren't gonna ignore it or push it to the curb seeing as they are literally rewarding you with an EARLY GOODBYE scene for the eventual traumatic event that's gonna happen.

I was talking about the people I've seen defending the ending rather than the developers. Sorry for sounding so abrasive in the first place, I'm just really bummed that after all these years they went with that direction rather than doing something that made more sense within the story. It really wouldn't have pissed me off the way that it did if they had been upfront with it being a reboot rather than pulling a bait and switch at the very end.

Even then, I respectfully disagree that they wouldn't change major beats since it would further devalue the ending they set up. Which is fine by me since I hate it, I guess, but why make that ending in the first place? And them "rewarding" the player with what's essentially a spoiler because the developers assume the players know it's already going to happen just doesn't bode well for me when it comes to what's to come for storytelling. I already have many issues with the way Sephiroth is portrayed, so that's just more of the same problem for me.

 

[squinut]

I was talking about the people I've seen defending the ending rather than the developers. Sorry for sounding so abrasive in the first place, I'm just really bummed that after all these years they went with that direction rather than doing something that made more sense within the story. It really wouldn't have pissed me off the way that it did if they had been upfront with it being a reboot rather than pulling a bait and switch at the very end.

Even then, I respectfully disagree that they wouldn't change major beats since it would further devalue the ending they set up. Which is fine by me since I hate it, I guess, but why make that ending in the first place? And them "rewarding" the player with what's essentially a spoiler because the developers assume the players know it's already going to happen just doesn't bode well for me when it comes to what's to come for storytelling. I already have many issues with the way Sephiroth is portrayed, so that's just more of the same problem for me.

I get that the idea of Squeenix messing up what made FF7 great is honestly a very real probability looking back at how they handled some of their other IPs (I know KH is a very good example of this but I'd blame Disney more than Squeenix for the mess that it is). But at the same time I feel that a lot of people have allowed that disgust and fear to cloud their opinion, rather than to look at the game as it is, and how they genuinely experienced it. Which like I said, stays mainly good and true to the original even while adding and changing stuff (like the characterisation of Jessie, Wedge and Biggs/expansion of Wall Market, the Sectors/Sephiroth's appearances).

The upset at it being a reboot is stacked on top of the assumption that Squeenix is going to change most of the major storybeats. Which at the end of the day is more of a kneejerk reaction to the last chapter and the explanation behind the plot ghosts rather than a weighted consideration of the game as a whole, and what the team at Squeenix have been saying from the start. They want to make things interesting by adding new stuff, but they aren't throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Kitase was also asked about how different Final Fantasy 7 Remake will be in comparison to the original story, to which Kitase said that "we're not drastically changing the story and making it into something completely different than the original."

"I (Kitase), along with Nomura-san and [Kazushige] Nojima-san – who are involved with the remake – were involved with the original Final Fantasy VII. We were the people who created it, so in that sense, we don’t think anything is untouchable. That isn’t to say we’re changing everything! Of course, within Square Enix and across the globe, there are people who think it’s on this holy scale. That there isn’t anything we can touch or play around with. But we believe we know the balance between what can be changed versus what needs to be protected."

The other was to focus on the portion of the story up to the escape from Midgar, allowing us to avoid omitting any important scenes and to expand on the original, by going deeper into the world and characters than before. Effectively it would be a new game with emphasis on creating a realistic presentation with substance. We decided that the latter is what the fans are looking for and would enjoy far more. Development is already underway for the next game, and we are striving to make it even better than this one.

Lots of people think the plot ghosts are an indication of Squeenix declaring its intention to completely rewrite and revamp FF7, a a cruel "PSYCH" after spending 90% of the game lovingly retelling and expanding on the original story. But if you consider the Remake as a whole, the plot ghosts can also easily be seen as a red herring- thrown in there to distract you from the probability that they are going to be hitting the same major beats as the original. Perhaps in a different order, perhaps in a different manner. But what needs to happen, will most likely happen. Because that is what defined FF7 for all the fans who love it. I don't think they've forgotten that. Considering that they included even the DAMN HELLHOUSE as a full blown boss fight. A random encounter that probably 80% of players blasting through Midgar wouldn't even remember.

For me that scene is a reward because they never got to say goodbye to each other, I don't think it's a bad move storytelling-wise because it adds to their relationship, and expands on Aerith's determination. It shows what Aerith felt, since after that scene you as Cloud are left guessing, lost to his demons and grasping for meaning in a void where she once was. It also shows that she does not regret what happened only what it did to him, and will still commit to the same path, for the same goal as she had back then.

 

[Berrakh]

This is all just a vague gut feeling I get. The overanalysis could be part of their 4D backgammon, who knows. Part of this is I feel like she got a raw deal out of the original and the compilation essentially rewriting her character I'd probably just like to see her defy bad faith expectations.

The thing with the story changing is they have absolutely zeroed in on a single later plot point as the focial point for that entire discussion. By constantly foreshadowing it and so on. And that's the death of Aerith. It's become too obvious to ignore her fate even this early into the story, and it almost feels like a winking commentary on how it has come to define her role in things. And this has pretty much always been to her detriment as a character, while if the recent ultimate-guidebook-thing is any guide they've made her into an even more important character this time than before. And you add onto this rumors about how this Remake was originally the final sequel to the original game and they were tossing around the idea of doing solo stories for each character (Like Dirge) and you get an impression this is a stealthy story about her almost.
And returning to how OBVIOUS they've made it, I now feel like it's too obvious and they're gonna "get us" again.

If they're familiar with fandom memes enough to know HELL HOUSE was a big deal I can easily see them not killing Aerith or not in the same way. I mean, yes, it's an iconic scene and a big important deal but it's been memed to beyond undeath. And beyond being a meme it is actually used to devalue her character by the fandom at large from what little I have seen. It just would not have the same impact, it would probably end up being cringe vocal performances and melodramatic mo-cap. It would be more surprising if she lived and either died later or exited the party some other way. And Square fucking loves surprises.

A surefire way to kill the legacy of that important moment is do it again and have it be a dud. Which I do think is very likely. People would just make a gazillion memes at its expense and utterly deflate the impact immediately. There was some unverified rumor or leak about how Aerith will be alive at the Gaia Cliffs and fall into the lifestream without Cloud. While obviously that is UNVERIFIED it is more or less what I am talking about. She is removed from play but not outright killed the same way. With the question of where she is and if destiny was truly thwarted hanging over proceedings.

And tbh I could see myself preferring that. It feels like something they could deliver on. While I do no think they can faithfully recreate the impact of when she died the first time. We'd be relying on whoever voices Cloud to really emote anguish and disbelief which is dicey. And the set up is less solid as well. After all a big part of why it mattered the first time was because the love triangle seemed more onsided in the original. Yes you could give Tifa attention but it would often just confuse her and outside of those options Aerith seemed to be closer to Cloud despite just meeting (very typically of a video game romance, which is why kids would expect Aerith to live.), and the game even took pains to make you as the player feel bonded to Aerith by giving her the more fun and unique subplots in Midgar But now it's a more balanced love triangle so the level of unique investment Aerith had is just not present.

There's also an element of squeamishness to modern day Square Enix. Remember that the way in which Aerith was killed was very brutal by any realistic standard. Meanwhile we already see Square shying away from showing us Tseng so much as hit her. And the business with Shinra blowing up their own reactor rather than have our heroes do something bad.
And tbh I'd be annoyed if a side character like Zack gets a reprieve from his fate but Aerith gets the exact same one and it amounts to nothing special. I'd rather her time of death just get moved back and become more ambiguous than that.

 

[squinut]

This is all just a vague gut feeling I get. The overanalysis could be part of their 4D backgammon, who knows. Part of this is I feel like she got a raw deal out of the original and the compilation essentially rewriting her character I'd probably just like to see her defy bad faith expectations.

I don't really think this rendition of Aerith is a rewrite, more of an accurate retelling of how they tried to convey her, less obstructed by clunky software limitations and wonky translations. Even in the original FF7 she does show a cheeky personality, being the first to tease Barret about looking cute in his sailor suit. And she was the one who dragged Cloud through Wall Market and convinced him to crossdress with lots of giggles and sly comments. That was all in the original. I don't really see the raw deal point because... I don't think the PS1 version of her is a detraction of her character, nor is the Remake a rewrite of what we had originally? I mean if you just look at the fandom side, of course you're going to have a bad time. But I don't think that's being fair to the game.

The thing with the story changing is they have absolutely zeroed in on a single later plot point as the focial point for that entire discussion. By constantly foreshadowing it and so on. And that's the death of Aerith. It's become too obvious to ignore her fate even this early into the story, and it almost feels like a winking commentary on how it has come to define her role in things. And this has pretty much always been to her detriment as a character, while if the recent ultimate-guidebook-thing is any guide they've made her into an even more important character this time than before.

But IT IS the focal point of FF7. The crystallising moment of the entire game. I don't understand how this is seen as a detriment to her character when the game treats it as a testament to her will and determination. They are not mocking her death. They are acknowledging her importance, by having Cloud viscerally react to it (he even cries in one scene, and is visibly shaken in others) by having Cloud recognise even subconsciously that she did a very important thing for them all. I get that the fandom has meme-ed this event to hell and back and it's lost a lot of its emotional weight if you look at it from that angle, but that is not the game, and that is not what the game has done here.

And you add onto this rumors about how this Remake was originally the final sequel to the original game and they were tossing around the idea of doing solo stories for each character (Like Dirge) and you get an impression this is a stealthy story about her almost.

The thing about solo stories- they aren't all bad. For all the flak FF15 got for the half-assed plot in the main game, the character focused DLCs were actually VERY satisfying to play because they expanded on the best thing FF15 had going for it, which were the 4 main bros and their relationships with each other. The weakest of the DLCs was Gladiolus which featured the least exposition, and the least personal development. (It was the same problem that Dirge had- it had absolutely no change to Vincent's character, the horrid gameplay would be tolerable if it did something more with Vincent. But he ended the game EXACTLY the same as he started, maybe even worse) But the later follow ups with Prompto's and Ignis showed that Squeenix can do good solo stories. Hell Zack's Crisis Core is a stellar example of a good solo story. I am not opposed to solo stories, I'm just opposed to empty stories.

The remake however is NOT a solo story. It is a retelling. Aerith is not carrying the game by herself. But she is an important part of the story, just as she was in the original.

And returning to how OBVIOUS they've made it, I now feel like it's too obvious and they're gonna "get us" again.

If they're familiar with fandom memes enough to know HELL HOUSE was a big deal I can easily see them not killing Aerith or not in the same way. I mean, yes, it's an iconic scene and a big important deal but it's been memed to beyond undeath. And beyond being a meme it is actually used to devalue her character by the fandom at large from what little I have seen. It just would not have the same impact, it would probably end up being cringe vocal performances and melodramatic mo-cap. It would be more surprising if she lived and either died later or exited the party some other way. And Square fucking loves surprises.

It's this leap of logic that I'm having trouble following. If they understand the importance of paying homage and doing right by a RANDOM ENCOUNTER why would they suddenly veer off track and completely THROW AWAY THE FOCAL POINT OF THE GAME??? It is her death that forces Cloud to face his inner demons, it was after meeting her that Cloud begins to change and shed the protective Soldier persona he had been hiding behind- she is the focal point around which MOST OF THE STORY EVENTS REVOLVE, a counterbalance to Sephiroth- the good to his bad. When has Squeenix meme-ed her or treated her with disrespect?? Hell if there's any character I feel angry for it'd be Cloud who has been pawned off to a bazillion franchises. But they never did that with Aerith. It is fandom that has done her death disrespect- not Squeenix. I don't get why you're blaming Squeenix for something they never did.

A surefire way to kill the legacy of that important moment is do it again and have it be a dud. Which I do think is very likely. People would just make a gazillion memes at its expense and utterly deflate the impact immediately. There was some unverified rumor or leak about how Aerith will be alive at the Gaia Cliffs and fall into the lifestream without Cloud. While obviously that is UNVERIFIED it is more or less what I am talking about. She is removed from play but not outright killed the same way. With the question of where she is and if destiny was truly thwarted hanging over proceedings.

I mean I agree the surefire way to kill a legacy is to follow it up with a fail. But like I said from everything I've seen and experienced through the Remake, I have faith that Squeenix will do right by the characters, even if it's not a 1-for-1 retelling. You keep talking about the memes like it is the only reaction to Aerith's death, when just as many if not more fans were shocked and horrified, but respectful of her sacrifice and understood the importance it had in the context of the game. I don't get why you keep taking your fandom experience as a reason to bash the game. They are different things. To mix them up is on you- not Squeenix.

Yeah I've heard of all the rumors. It's actually based on the unused dialogue lines she has in the Great Glacier. So not entirely unfounded. Though the "space for Aerith at Gaia Cliffs" stuff is more of a stretch. Still like I said, from everything I've seen thus far, they understand who she is as a character and what she will do- I have faith that Squeenix will do right by her, even if it's not a 1-for-1 retelling.

And tbh I could see myself preferring that. It feels like something they could deliver on. While I do no think they can faithfully recreate the impact of when she died the first time. We'd be relying on whoever voices Cloud to really emote anguish and disbelief which is dicey. And the set up is less solid as well. After all a big part of why it mattered the first time was because the love triangle seemed more onsided in the original. Yes you could give Tifa attention but it would often just confuse her and outside of those options Aerith seemed to be closer to Cloud despite just meeting (very typically of a video game romance, which is why kids would expect Aerith to live.), and the game even took pains to make you as the player feel bonded to Aerith by giving her the more fun and unique subplots in Midgar But now it's a more balanced love triangle so the level of unique investment Aerith had is just not present.

And therein lies the beauty of the plot ghosts- it allows them to change up the story enough to make it interesting, without making it unrecognisable. Look my dude- you're going in anxiety spirals here, hyping yourself up and tearing yourself down over things that may not be the case. I don't try to visualise whatever I think Squeenix is going to do next in my brain and then get angry at them over disappointing me in a visualisation. I look at what they've actually done in the Remake thus far, and judge them based on that. Which again, they've given an equal spotlight to both Tifa and Aerith, and beyond that ADDED development for a very sweet and cute (imo) friendship between the two. Which I vastly prefer over the weird bitchiness that they had in the Shinra Tower segment. Before becoming all buddy buddy in Costa de Sol.

On the Cloud emoting point- I don't get your utter lack of faith in Cloud's VA, he pulled off the "Yes, I know, nailed it" line and the all the "uggghhhh"s and weird little dorky shit that Cloud mutters when stuff annoys him, in a way that makes him cute rather than annoying. Plus the ending scene just before he faces off with Rufus, and asks Barret to keep everyone else safe is also pretty darn convincing. And not to even mention the resolution scenes with all 3 of them- he pulls off the emotional weight, the confusion, the determination, and the anguish. So I have no idea if you're actually looking at the game when saying this, or whatever unrelentingly depressing corner of the fandom you've holed yourself in...

Yeah, there's some romantic aspects but it isn't the focus and it isn't all there is to them. Tifa's struggles with the morality of Avalanche, Aerith's struggles with wanting to live a normal life and knowing more lies in wait. Those are what I love more than the waifu wars aspect. Because I'm not playing as Cloud to endgame Tifa or Aerith, I'm playing as Cloud because I'm interested in this rag tag group of people. I find them interesting, and I find them inspiring- come what may, I treasure the memories and stories they have given me.

There's also an element of squeamishness to modern day Square Enix. Remember that the way in which Aerith was killed was very brutal by any realistic standard. Meanwhile we already see Square shying away from showing us Tseng so much as hit her. And the business with Shinra blowing up their own reactor rather than have our heroes do something bad.

I think that's because that would be OOC of Tseng. Considering how they characterised him in Crisis Core (retroactively but imo it's a humanising development for an extremely underdeveloped character in the original, so I like it), and how he was the one attempting to deliver Aerith's 80+ letters to Zack, it would be very weird if he'd suddenly up and slapped his kinda-friend's girlfriend like a 3 dolla ho. Like if they were truly that squeamish the implied rapey-ness of Don Corneo and gang would be completely sanitised. It is a EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE SCENE, and almost every streamer/lets player I watched CRINGED during that whole part. But they kept it in regardless.

The Shinra stuff was always implied, very badly implied (not sure if its the translation or the exposition eh) but still it's not like the Remake shies away from pointing out the hypocrisy of Avalanche as shown by Tifa's hesitance and some of Barret's lines. (The Shinra Elevator scene is one of my favourite scenes from the game for this reason). This isn't a sanitised "black and white world view" one dimensional game by any means. There are still some very funky parts (like honest to god how else are you supposed to read the 3000 gil hand massage scene as anything but a hand job?). Though it ain't a gore fest. But FF doesn't do gore fests in the first place. So the squeamish point is something I don't really understand either?

And tbh I'd be annoyed if a side character like Zack gets a reprieve from his fate but Aerith gets the exact same one and it amounts to nothing special. I'd rather her time of death just get moved back and become more ambiguous than that.

Zack may be a side but he ain't a minor character. His name echoes all over the damn story, and his shadow is cast the longest over Cloud (behind Sephiroth's). That being said, I really doubt he's getting a reprieve. In the FF7 lore, if there's one thing that's repeated over and over, it's that Soldiers do not get good ends. They either die heroes or die monsters. Elmyra says it to Cloud "You boys made a trade- a normal life for power. You can't have it both ways." Some random ghostbuster kid in the kid's corner tells you the black hood guy used to be a Soldier when younger right after that scene. All the normal Shinra troopers treat Roche like a monster off its leash. Heck, the entire storyline behind Crisis Core is just that. Either heroes or monsters, nothing else. Cloud's really the only one who "escaped" this fate. And even then he didn't really. He couldn't move past Aerith's death even (not to mention Zack's) in Advent Children, and was left frozen in his memories and regrets.

Like I said, playing the Remake. To me they did a lot of things right. They handled a lot of things seriously and with care. They expanded on the core story and made more with it. Gave it more meaning and weight. So going by what they've established with the Remake, I trust what they will do in Part 2, since they've shown again and again in the actual game that they know the importance of the story beats that truly matter.

 

[Berrakh]

It would be hypocritical to complain about a long textwall. But I am gonna be brief because these things can get out of hand, and I think a lot of this is confusion.

I don't really think this rendition of Aerith is a rewrite, more of an accurate retelling of how they tried to convey her, less obstructed by clunky software limitations and wonky translations. Even in the original FF7 she does show a cheeky personality, being the first to tease Barret about looking cute in his sailor suit. And she was the one who dragged Cloud through Wall Market and convinced him to crossdress with lots of giggles and sly comments. That was all in the original. I don't really see the raw deal point because... I don't think the PS1 version of her is a detraction of her character, nor is the Remake a devolvement of what we had originally? I mean if you just look at the fandom side, of course you're going to have a bad time. But I don't think that's being fair to the game.



But IT IS the focal point of FF7. The crystallising moment of the entire game. I don't understand how this is seen as a detriment to her character when the game treats it as a testament to her will and determination. They are not mocking her death. They are acknowledging her importance, by having Cloud viscerally react to it (he even cries in one scene, and is visibly shaken in others) by having Cloud recognise even subconsciously that she did a very important thing for them all. I get that the fandom has meme-ed this event to hell and back and it's lost a lot of its emotional weight if you look at it from that angle, but that is not the game, and that is not what the game has done here.



The thing about solo stories- they aren't all bad. For all the flak FF15 got for the half-assed plot in the main game, the character focused DLCs were actually VERY satisfying to play because they expanded on the best thing FF15 had going for it, which were the 4 main bros and their relationships with each other. The weakest of the DLCs was Gladiolus which featured the least exposition, and the least personal development. (It was the same problem that Dirge had- it had absolutely no change to Vincent's character, the horrid gameplay would be tolerable if it did something more with Vincent. But he ended the game EXACTLY the same as he started, maybe even worse) But the later follow ups with Prompto's and Ignis showed that Squeenix can do good solo stories. Hell Zack's Crisis Core is a stellar example of a good solo story. I am not opposed to solo stories, I'm just opposed to empty stories.

The remake however is NOT a solo story. It is a retelling. Aerith is not carrying the game by herself. But she is an important part of the story, just as she was in the original.



It's this leap of logic that I'm having trouble following. If they understand the importance of paying homage and doing right by a RANDOM ENCOUNTER why would they suddenly veer off track and completely THROW AWAY THE FOCAL POINT OF THE GAME??? It is her death that forces Cloud to face his inner demons, it was after meeting her that Cloud begins to change and shed the protective Soldier persona he had been hiding behind- she is the focal point around which MOST OF THE STORY EVENTS REVOLVE, a counterbalance to Sephiroth- the good to his bad. When has Squeenix meme-ed her or treated her with disrespect?? Hell if there's any character I feel angry for it'd be Cloud who has been pawned off to a bazillion franchises. But they never did that with Aerith. It is fandom that has done her death disrespect- not Squeenix. I don't get why you're blaming Squeenix for something they never did.



I mean I agree the surefire way to kill a legacy is to follow it up with a fail. But like I said from everything I've seen and experienced through the Remake, I have faith that Squeenix will do right by the characters, even if it's not a 1-for-1 retelling. You keep talking about the memes like it is the only reaction to Aerith's death, when just as many if not more fans were shocked and horrified, but respectful of her sacrifice and understood the importance it had in the context of the game. I don't get why you keep taking your fandom experience as a reason to bash the game. They are different things. To mix them up is on you- not Squeenix.

I mean I've heard of all the rumors. It's actually based on the unused dialogue lines she has in the Great Glacier. So not entirely unfounded. Though the "space for Aerith at Gaia Cliffs" stuff is more of a stretch. Still like I said, from everything I've seen thus far, they understand who she is as a character and what she will do- I have faith that Squeenix will do right by her, even if it's not a 1-for-1 retelling.



And therein lies the beauty of the plot ghosts- it allows them to change up the story enough to make it interesting, without making it unrecognisable. Look my dude- you're going in anxiety spirals here, hyping yourself up and tearing yourself down over things that may not be the case. I don't try to visualise whatever I think Squeenix is going to do next in my brain and then get angry at them over disappointing me in a visualisation. I look at what they've actually done in the Remake thus far, and judge them based on that. Which again, they've given an equal spotlight to both Tifa and Aerith, and beyond that ADDED development for a very sweet and cute (imo) friendship between the two. Which I vastly prefer over the weird bitchiness that they had in the Shinra Tower segment. Before becoming all buddy buddy in Costa de Sol.

Yeah, there's some romantic aspects but it isn't the focus and it isn't all there is to them. Tifa's struggles with the morality of Avalanche, Aerith's struggles with wanting to live a normal life and knowing more lies in wait. Those are what I love more than the waifu wars aspect. Because I'm not playing as Cloud to endgame Tifa or Aerith, I'm playing as Cloud because I'm interested in this rag tag group of people. I find them interesting, and I find them inspiring- come what may, I treasure the memories and stories they have given me.



I think that's because that would be OOC of Tseng. Considering how they characterised him in Crisis Core (retroactively but imo it's a humanising development for an extremely underdeveloped character in the original, so I like it), and how he was the one attempting to deliver Aerith's 80+ letters to Zack, it would be very weird if he'd suddenly up and slapped his kinda-friend's girlfriend like a 3 dolla ho. Like if they were truly that squeamish the implied rapey-ness of Don Corneo and gang would be completely sanitised. It is a EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE SCENE, and almost every streamer/lets player I watched CRINGED during that whole part. But they kept it in regardless.

The Shinra stuff was always implied, very badly implied (not sure if its the translation or the exposition eh) but still it's not like the Remake shies away from pointing out the hypocrisy of Avalanche as shown by Tifa's hesitance and some of Barret's lines. (The Shinra Elevator scene is one of my favourite scenes from the game for this reason). This isn't a sanitised "black and white world view" one dimensional game by any means. There are still some very funky parts (like honest to god how else are you supposed to read the 3000 gil hand massage scene as anything but a hand job?). Though it ain't a gore fest. But FF doesn't do gore fests in the first place. So the squeamish point is something I don't really understand either?



Zack may be a side but he ain't a minor character. His name echoes all over the damn story, and his shadow is cast the longest over Cloud (behind Sephiroth's). That being said, I really doubt he's getting a reprieve. In the FF7 lore, if there's one thing that's repeated over and over, it's that Soldiers do not get good ends. They either die heroes or die monsters. Elmyra says it to Cloud "You boys made a trade- a normal life for power. You can't have it both ways." Some random ghostbuster kid in the kid's corner tells you the black hood guy used to be a Soldier when younger right after that scene. All the normal Shinra troopers treat Roche like a monster off its leash. Heck, the entire storyline behind Crisis Core is just that. Either heroes or monsters, nothing else. Cloud's really the only one who "escaped" this fate. And even then he didn't really. He couldn't move past Aerith's death even (not to mention Zack's) in Advent Children, and was left frozen in his memories and regrets.

Like I said, playing the Remake. To me they did a lot of things right. They handled a lot of things seriously and with care. They expanded on the core story and made more with it. Gave it more meaning and weight. So going by what they've established with the Remake, I trust what they will do in Part 2, since they've shown again and again in the actual game that they know the importance of the story beats that truly matter.

1. I think Remake Aerith is more or less a perfect retelling. Some might say she's too silly or slightly different here but she's also insulated from that argument because she might not be behaving exactly the same. When I say the compilation did her dirty it's because in works like AC and CC her personality was massively subdued. And CC in particular seemed to make her subdued just to subordinate her to a less important character. And now he seems to be used to define her which just irritates me for a variety of reasons despite liking him.
I know it is unfair but how fans react to things does matter. I think it is more dangerous to pretend it doesn't. To my brain, and likely yours, it's just another form of content. I also worry that fandom ideas get into the developers heads.

2. I mean, it just does. I agree with you it should not be, but the fact she doesn't make it to the end does prove to be an obstacle for many gamers. This is kind of why I argue games cannot be art. I don't think FF7 is art anyway but this does mean a game cannot challenge its audience too much.

3. I never said it was a solo story. Clearly it's not but I would not be surprised if the Remake idea got attached to another story idea they were developing separately. That might have been.

4. I am not blaming Squeenix. It's just that I can easily see the devs, who claim to follow the fandom, making decisions in response to it. It is shitty to have created an iconic moment and see it reduced. And it is tempting to grant fanservice. Aerith survival has been the most requested feature ever. And it's also tempting to throw some curveballs but end up in the same place, like her dying later. She was originally not supposed to die in Disc 1 after all. It's how people could hack their games and restore her back in the day. Because there was data for her in disc 2.

5. I think they'll do right as well, and that may include changing the manner in which she leaves us just enough. There are some things Squeenix is unfairly criticized for but the voice acting is genuinely hit or miss. Unless the audition for Cloud included making the actors have a believable meltdown I worry.

6. The love triangle thing is the least important aspect but OG Midgar did not have equal spotlight between them and I think this played a role in forming expectations about Aerith. And that this was crucial to making her death iconic. You do not expect the Pink Princess You Protect to die as a kid.

7. We will just disagree about Zack, As likable as I find him his inclusion to the story and having his fingers in everything has just created a hurdle for them and posed a lot of unwanted changes. Not an impassible hurdle but one they'll need to deal with. There are people who discredit Cloud as the hero and think Zack was the real hero. There are people who have 0 investment in Aerith living because "she belongs with Zack anyway" (I am not making that up).
But we can agree the AVALANCHE guys are minor and they live. In the original they died to prove to the player death was real. Now they live. Might mean nothing, might mean something.

I do agree I am basing much of this off of fan culture, which is terrible, but idk I get this feeling. And I know it is just a feeling. And keep in mind I do think something bad will happen to Aerith. It just may not be permanent, it may be "less permanent", or it may simply be delayed.
Keep in mind I have no presence in the fandom besides a brief period of curiousity before and after release. So what I saw is just a sample of the sewage. And if it bothers me I can't imagine it bothering nobody else.

 

[squinut]

It would be hypocritical to complain about a long textwall. But I am gonna be brief because these things can get out of hand, and I think a lot of this is confusion.

1. I think Remake Aerith is more or less a perfect retelling. Some might say she's too silly or slightly different here but she's also insulated from that argument because she might not be behaving exactly the same. When I say the compilation did her dirty it's because in works like AC and CC her personality was massively subdued. And CC in particular seemed to make her subdued just to subordinate her to a less important character. And now he seems to be used to define her which just irritates me for a variety of reasons despite liking him.
I know it is unfair but how fans react to things does matter. I think it is more dangerous to pretend it doesn't. To my brain, and likely yours, it's just another form of content. I also worry that fandom ideas get into the developers heads.

AC I get- it's kind of a crapshoot for everyone. No one had a good time in AC beyond the action scenes, and the writing was meh for about 80% of it. CC however is Zack's story. There's no way around that. I don't think it's far to resent CC for not being Aerith's game when it was never meant to be Aerith's game. I don't think CC's characterisation of Aerith was mean to devalue her character, more the product of clunky writing and a hamfisted attempt at trying to show how Zack changed her life for the better. It could definitely benefit from less of the KH vibe, that I agree. Which was a very real fear I had going into Remake, and I'm thankful they all sound like actual human beings in this.

Not when you're only taking a microcosm as a representation of the majority, and taking this very toxic corner as a guarantee that Squeenix will tunnel vision onto the worst and run with it. Like I said- everything I've seen in the game thus far only shows Squeenix treating FF7 with love and respect. None of the mockery that you keep worrying at. So to me this is a problem more with you than with Squeenix.

2. I mean, it just does. I agree with you it should not be, but the fact she doesn't make it to the end does prove to be an obstacle for many gamers. This is kind of why I argue games cannot be art. I don't think FF7 is art anyway but this does mean a game cannot challenge its audience too much.

What....? The general consensus I've seen online and even in this damn thread is that Aerith has to die or FF7 will have no meaning. Like the whole hoo-ha with TLOU2 just hammers this point home. It isn't the death of a beloved character that makes or breaks a story, it is how the character dies in the context of the story that is the deciding factor. The only conceivable reason why Aerith not making it to the end would be a game breaker would be if they ignored all the lead up and development to her death, and focused solely on playing FF7 as a waifu simulator. Like what even is the "are games art" point?? Games are an experience, a story, a journey. Who the heck cares if it someone else thinks its art or not??? You're bringing in so many assumptions about what games can or cannot be that it feels like you've completely lost sight of what a game is- an experience. And if a game can't challenge its audience too much, Dark Souls, Bloodborne would be dead in the water instead of the goddamn standard of gaming it is held up as.

3. I never said it was a solo story. Clearly it's not but I would not be surprised if the Remake idea got attached to another story idea they were developing separately. That might have been.

Yeah I guess you didn't, but you kinda implied it with this line: "you get an impression this is a stealthy story about her almost" And your prior point with Dirge was kinda ambiguous so I just wanted to be clear with the point. Solo stories aren't bad thing necessarily. They can be done well.

4. I am not blaming Squeenix. It's just that I can easily see the devs, who claim to follow the fandom, making decisions in response to it. It is shitty to have created an iconic moment and see it reduced. And it is tempting to grant fanservice. Aerith survival has been the most requested feature ever. And it's also tempting to throw some curveballs but end up in the same place, like her dying later. She was originally not supposed to die in Disc 1 after all. It's how people could hack their games and restore her back in the day. Because there was data for her in disc 2.

Again I return to the point: to not judge the game on things they haven't done, and to not conflate fandom opinions with the actual game. I'm pretty sure Squeenix knows where to draw the line- the plot ghosts are evidence enough that while they are interested in what fandom has to say, it is not the be all end all factor for them. And again as all the interview quotes from them state over and over- they know what can be changed and what should be protected. They do not intend to tell a completely unrecognisable story. People want Aerith to live because her death was so abrupt that Cloud literally goes into shock for a good 1/4 for the game and spends the rest of it confused and lost. They want answers, they want resolutions, they want a proper goodbye- they want Cloud to be happy.

Which again I think Squeenix understands very well seeing as they give you an early goodbye scene that you never got to give her with the way she was unceremoniously murdered by Sephiroth before Cloud could even pull out his sword. That being said A LOT of fans also recognise the importance of Aerith's death in terms of Cloud's development and Tifa's acknowledgement of her own feelings (and even the fucking fate of the planet is dependent on Aerith to an extent). A LOT OF THEM if not more insist that Aerith has to die or FF7 loses its meaning. Again look at this damn thread, so many people are upset at the last chapter simply because it kind of dangles the possibility of Aerith not dying.

5. I think they'll do right as well, and that may include changing the manner in which she leaves us just enough. There are some things Squeenix is unfairly criticized for but the voice acting is genuinely hit or miss. Unless the audition for Cloud included making the actors have a believable meltdown I worry.

Sigh. Well that's you I guess. I find the voice acting for the Remake stellar so far. And this isn't something I'm gonna grind my teeth over when the Remake has given me no reason to believe it's gonna be "I believe you" bad.

6. The love triangle thing is the least important aspect but OG Midgar did not have equal spotlight between them and I think this played a role in forming expectations about Aerith. And that this was crucial to making her death iconic. You do not expect the Pink Princess You Protect to die as a kid.

I think you're mixing up a lot of things with this point... Yeah I'd agree with you that OG Midgar skewed heavily towards Aerith by design, in a way that would make her death all the more shocking and surprising. But just because you know the death that's coming doesn't make it any less painful or impactful than the death that you do not see because the emotional impact is delivered via your connection with the character. Same with Zack in Crisis Core, you know how his story ends but it doesn't lessen the tragedy and impact of his ending because Zack is a compelling and likeable character. And same with Remake- which despite the equal screen time, does develop and flesh out Aerith to an even GREATER degree than what OG Midgar did (the Church climb is a fantastic expansion on the 3 scene bare bones dialogue you got in the OG). So if you're saying people will care less about her because she takes up less of the story- I'm like ????. They literally expanded Midgar into a 30 hour game, yes she gets less of the pie but the pie is so much bigger and better that I'm not sure why you're unhappy at that?

7. We will just disagree about Zack, As likable as I find him his inclusion to the story and having his fingers in everything has just created a hurdle for them and posed a lot of unwanted changes. Not an impassible hurdle but one they'll need to deal with. There are people who discredit Cloud as the hero and think Zack was the real hero. There are people who have 0 investment in Aerith living because "she belongs with Zack anyway" (I am not making that up).
But we can agree the AVALANCHE guys are minor and they live. In the original they died to prove to the player death was real. Now they live. Might mean nothing, might mean something.

Like I keep saying.......... I just look at what's in the game and judge it for that. Going in anxiety spirals over fandom discourse is one of the most toxic and least productive ways you can experience the game imo. In the OG the Avalanche guys were barely developed, and you felt almost nothing when they died. And well we can theorise all day and all night about who lives and who dies, why that's good why that's bad, but like I said at the end of the day 90% of the game is a loving and loyal retelling of the OG FF7's story. And only 10% is a baffling proposition, which could be good, could be bad. But going by the 90%, I'm inclined to believe that Squeenix knows where they are going with it.

I do agree I am basing much of this off of fan culture, which is terrible, but idk I get this feeling. And I know it is just a feeling. And keep in mind I do think something bad will happen to Aerith. It just may not be permanent, it may be "less permanent", or it may simply be delayed.
Keep in mind I have no presence in the fandom besides a brief period of curiousity before and after release. So what I saw is just a sample of the sewage. And if it bothers me I can't imagine it bothering nobody else.

Look dude. I've been part of enough fandoms to know that the worst thing you can do as a fan, is to wade into the sewage and to pour it right into your mouth. As an OG KH fan that remembered the magic of playing KH1, and was dragged on this almost 20 year journey of absolute diarrhea bullshit, that was not improved at all by the absolute garbage that is the fandom shipping discourse and the FUCKING GLORIFIED DISNEY ADVERT THAT KH3 BECAME- and as someone who was also increasingly disillusioned year after year by how out of touch each consecutive Final Fantasy was getting- I didn't even bother about the Remake. I could give no shits about it, with how much Squeenix had been already shat the bed.

But then out of boredom I watched someone streaming their playthrough of Remake and I was SHOCKED. Because I actually felt some level of enjoyment from a Squeenix game. I didn't hate 50% of the cast and feel absolute apathy towards the other 50%. I ACTUALLY LOVED THEM. I loved Cloud, I loved Tifa (who I had always been apathetic about), I loved Barret (who I felt more baffled by in the OG) and I loved Aerith even more than I loved her as Cloud in the OG, and I LOVED the background characters I didn't give two shits about in the OG.

So that is why I am baffled by your stubborn insistence on basing your feelings and expectations of the game not on the game but on the absolute shit show that is the fandom experience. It is easy to be cynical and disillusioned, hell I bought into that mindset. But I also recognise when a game does good for me. And I don't purposely go and distort my feelings for the game by immersing myself in the sewage and drinking the fandom kool aid.

 

[Berrakh]

AC I get- it's kind of a crapshoot for everyone. No one had a good time in AC beyond the action scenes, and the writing was meh for about 80% of it. CC however is Zack's story. There's no way around that. I don't think it's far to resent CC for not being Aerith's game when it was never meant to be Aerith's game. I don't think CC's characterisation of Aerith was mean to devalue her character, more the product of clunky writing and a hamfisted attempt at trying to show how Zack changed her life for the better. It could definitely benefit from less of the KH vibe, that I agree. Which was a very real fear I had going into Remake, and I'm thankful they all sound like actual human beings in this.

Not when you're only taking a microcosm as a representation of the majority, and taking this very toxic corner as a guarantee that Squeenix will tunnel vision onto the worst and run with it. Like I said- everything I've seen in the game thus far only shows Squeenix treating FF7 with love and respect. None of the mockery that you keep worrying at. So to me this is a problem more with you than with Squeenix.



What....? The general consensus I've seen online and even in this damn thread is that Aerith has to die or FF7 will have no meaning. Like the whole hoo-ha with TLOU2 just hammers this point home. It isn't the death of a beloved character that makes or breaks a story, it is how the character dies in the context of the story that is the deciding factor. The only conceivable reason why Aerith not making it to the end would be a game breaker would be if they ignored all the lead up and development to her death, and focused solely on playing FF7 as a waifu simulator. Like what even is the "are games art" point?? Games are an experience, a story, a journey. Who the heck cares if it someone else thinks its art or not??? You're bringing in so many assumptions about what games can or cannot be that it feels like you've completely lost sight of what a game is- an experience. And if a game can't challenge its audience too much, Dark Souls, Bloodborne would be dead in the water instead of the goddamn standard of gaming it is held up as.



Yeah I guess you didn't, but you kinda implied it with this line: "you get an impression this is a stealthy story about her almost" And your prior point with Dirge was kinda ambiguous so I just wanted to be clear with the point. Solo stories aren't bad thing necessarily. They can be done well.



Again I return to the point: to not judge the game on things they haven't done, and to not conflate fandom opinions with the actual game. I'm pretty sure Squeenix knows where to draw the line- the plot ghosts are evidence enough that while they are interested in what fandom has to say, it is not the be all end all factor for them. And again as all the interview quotes from them state over and over- they know what can be changed and what should be protected. They do not intend to tell a completely unrecognisable story. People want Aerith to live because her death was so abrupt that Cloud literally goes into shock for a good 1/4 for the game and spends the rest of it confused and lost. They want answers, they want resolutions, they want a proper goodbye- they want Cloud to be happy.

Which again I think Squeenix understands very well seeing as they give you an early goodbye scene that you never got to give her with the way she was unceremoniously murdered by Sephiroth before Cloud could even pull out his sword. That being said A LOT of fans also recognise the importance of Aerith's death in terms of Cloud's development and Tifa's acknowledgement of her own feelings (and even the fucking fate of the planet is dependent on Aerith to an extent). A LOT OF THEM if not more insist that Aerith has to die or FF7 loses its meaning. Again look at this damn thread, so many people are upset at the last chapter simply because it kind of dangles the possibility of Aerith not dying.



Sigh. Well that's you I guess. I find the voice acting for the Remake stellar so far. And this isn't something I'm gonna grind my teeth over when the Remake has given me no reason to believe it's gonna be "I believe you" bad.



I think you're mixing up a lot of things with this point... Yeah I'd agree with you that OG Midgar skewed heavily towards Aerith by design, in a way that would make her death all the more shocking and surprising. But just because you know the death that's coming doesn't make it any less painful or impactful than the death that you do not see because the emotional impact is delivered via your connection with the character. Same with Zack in Crisis Core, you know how his story ends but it doesn't lessen the tragedy and impact of his ending because Zack is a compelling and likeable character. And same with Remake- which despite the equal screen time, does develop and flesh out Aerith to an even GREATER degree than what OG Midgar did (the Church climb is a fantastic expansion on the 3 scene bare bones dialogue you got in the OG). So if you're saying people will care less about her because she takes up less of the story- I'm like ????. They literally expanded Midgar into a 30 hour game, yes she gets less of the pie but the pie is so much bigger and better that I'm not sure why you're unhappy at that?



Like I keep saying.......... I just look at what's in the game and judge it for that. Going in anxiety spirals over shipping discourse is one of the most toxic and least productive ways you can experience the game imo. In the OG the Avalanche guys were barely developed, and you felt almost nothing when they died. And well we can theorise all day and all night about who lives and who dies, why that's good why that's bad, but like I said at the end of the day 90% of the game is a loving and loyal retelling of the OG FF7's story. And only 10% is a baffling proposition, which could be good, could be bad. But going by the 90%, I'm inclined to believe that Squeenix knows where they are going with it.



Look dude. I've been part of enough fandoms to know that the worst thing you can do as a fan, is to wade into the sewage and to pour it right into your mouth. As an OG KH fan that remembered the magic of playing KH1, and was dragged on this almost 20 year journey of absolute diarrhea bullshit, that was not improved at all by the absolute garbage that is the fandom shipping discourse and the FUCKING GLORIFIED DISNEY ADVERT THAT KH3 BECAME- and as someone who was also increasingly disillusioned year after year by how out of touch each consecutive Final Fantasy was getting- I didn't even bother about the Remake. I could give no shits about it, with how much Squeenix had been already shat the bed.

But then out of boredom I watched someone streaming their playthrough of Remake and I was SHOCKED. Because I actually felt some level of enjoyment from a Squeenix game. I didn't hate 50% of the cast and feel absolute apathy towards the other 50%. I ACTUALLY LOVED THEM. I loved Cloud, I loved Tifa (who I had always been apathetic about), I loved Barret (who I felt more baffled by in the OG) and I loved Aerith even more than I loved her as Cloud in the OG, and I LOVED the background characters I didn't give two shits about in the OG.

So that is why I am baffled by your stubborn insistence on basing your feelings and expectations of the game not on the game but on the absolute shit show that is the fandom experience. It is easy to be cynical and disillusioned, hell I bought into that mindset. But I also recognise when a game does good for me. And I don't purposely go and distort my feelings for the game by immersing myself in the sewage and drinking the fandom kool aid.

1. I don't resent it for not being her game. I "resent" how her personality was changed just to make her relationship with him fall into a trite opposite's attact arrangement. And the effect this had had going forward. I also resent how it could not be creative with their relationship so they made a lot of it just a repeat of her relationship to Cloud, which then makes her relationship to Cloud (the important thing from the original game as you seem to agree) a repeat of Zack. It's just dumb and I at the time thought so. So it's a pet peeve.

2. Well I never said she should not die. But I would also take a lot of the "has to die" comments with a grain of salt. It seems to be a bizarre mix of bad faith and ha;f truths. The same people who say she must die because, at the very least, it matters to Cloud will also argue her role in the story is not especially important or she's just a plot device. Both are inane and contradictory but that's the idea.

3. Well I don't really disagree, I just think you're overreacting to my idea. In fact, this thread has been pretty good, hence why I stopped commenting. No one said anything I thought was silly or I felt I could add to.

4. I've been pro-VA too but it's just really hard to sound believably agonized about something.

5. Well, the issue with this comparison is Zack is your MC. You get so much more time with him. And while there is Cloud, Cloud is not really presented as a real alternative to Zack by the narrative (we of course know he is but it's not presented overtly). Meanwhile the love triangle is about there being an alternative. In the OG, this was almost treated like a surprise even if you could tell something must come of it.

6. I do not think I am anxious about shipping discourse. The issue is the relationship between our MC and our Martyr does matter here. How it's perceived, as I perceive that, feels relevant.
In fact I feel overall less anxious about this Remake after the ending we got. The thing I was only ever worried about was it being bad but by being new it would eclipse or retcon how people viewed the original. The original is already a very easily misinterpreted game, having a crappy remake with crappy interpretations of its own as a stand in for the original would make it worse. But now people have accepted on an emotional level that this is not the same thing.

7. Well I mean, I find this very stirring. And I don't think we widely disagree on the game itself. In fact I have bookmarked your posts for my own purposes because I do appreciate them.
But I guess because I avoided fandoms my whole life based on what I caught wind of from other people I got blindsided by how bad this one seemed. Like it came across as if people were trying to butcher the game they love by just arbitrarily deciding conspicious moments did not matter, or did not count, and it receiving 0 pushback. Maybe that's a Silent Majority being silent, or maybe no one can actually shut the crap down.

And yes KH1 and 2 I remember being hit games at the time. But I do think the fandom's excessive love of the wrong stuff in those games poisoned the outcome for the series.
Like I said, I do not feel anxiety. I am just pessimistic about some things, optimistic about others. I certainly don't think Square will ever blatantly listen to the fanbase, I just think the desire to placate is present and could be turned to bad ends.

 

[squinut]

1. I don't resent it for not being her game. I "resent" how her personality was changed just to make her relationship with him fall into a trite opposite's attact arrangement. And the effect this had had going forward. I also resent how it could not be creative with their relationship so they made a lot of it just a repeat of her relationship to Cloud, which then makes her relationship to Cloud (the important thing from the original game as you seem to agree) a repeat of Zack. It's just dumb and I at the time thought so. So it's a pet peeve.

I don't necessarily think her personality was changed seeing as this was a younger Aerith, yet to come out of her shell. But at the same time I get you on the pet peeve. I agree that the Zack and Aerith aspect was one of the weakest parts of CC, and was not written as convincingly as it should be. At the same time I'm not against them parallel-ling Zack's relationship with her, with Cloud's relationship with her. Since that echoes the reason behind Cloud's eventual break with reality. Could be written better, but it's adequate enough for establishing Zack's importance to her.

2. Well I never said she should not die. But I would also take a lot of the "has to die" comments with a grain of salt. It seems to be a bizarre mix of bad faith and ha;f truths. The same people who say she must die because, at the very least, it matters to Cloud will also argue her role in the story is not especially important or she's just a plot device. Both are inane and contradictory but that's the idea.

My dude, you confuse me by touting opinions you don't feel. I mean... personally I just don't really care about the fandom. I just look at the story, what makes the most sense, what the characters themselves are saying, what they believe in and what they intend to do. I personally believe Aerith will die not because it's a convenient plot device or whatever- but because that is the logical conclusion of her character arc, and because she is determined to live her life to the best she can be without regrets. That means she is willing to go through great personal sacrifice in order to ensure the well being and happiness of those she treasures. Sure it doesn't necessarily mean death, but she has clear goals and beliefs, and those are not attained without sacrifice of some sort.

3. Well I don't really disagree, I just think you're overreacting to my idea. In fact, this thread has been pretty good, hence why I stopped commenting. No one said anything I thought was silly or I felt I could add to.

I guess I'm frustrated because you're kinda baffling to talk to. So that bleeds into an overreaction. Sorry bout that.

5. Well, the issue with this comparison is Zack is your MC. You get so much more time with him. And while there is Cloud, Cloud is not really presented as a real alternative to Zack by the narrative (we of course know he is but it's not presented overtly). Meanwhile the love triangle is about there being an alternative. In the OG, this was almost treated like a surprise even if you could tell something must come of it.

...Is your issue simply that you believe the reduction in screentime ratio would make Aerith a less compelling character, and thereby make her death less moving? Having the bulk of screentime does not make a compelling character. It is the character interactions, the development, how they react to situations that makes a character compelling. UP is a brilliant example of creating a compelling character with minimal screentime. To me the screentime is a non issue if they spend it right, which as the Remake has shown me, they do.

(btw Cloud isn't presented as an alternative to Zack because he's an alternative to AERITH in CC. Their development in CC is very (b)romantic imo...) I kinda feel you're coming at this from a very weird angle, and bumping your head on things that you don't have to bump your head on.

6. I do not think I am anxious about shipping discourse. The issue is the relationship between our MC and our Martyr does matter here. How it's perceived, as I perceive that, feels relevant.
In fact I feel overall less anxious about this Remake after the ending we got. The thing I was only ever worried about was it being bad but by being new it would eclipse or retcon how people viewed the original. The original is already a very easily misinterpreted game, having a crappy remake with crappy interpretations of its own as a stand in for the original would make it worse. But now people have accepted on an emotional level that this is not the same thing.

Eh... dude when some rando can get you wound up enough to dislike a generally likable character like here--> "There are people who discredit Cloud as the hero and think Zack was the real hero." and here --> "There are people who have 0 investment in Aerith living because "she belongs with Zack anyway" you are knee deep in shipping discourse and anxious about it. I know you say you like Zack, but it still feels like you're resentful for him taking the spotlight from Cloud. Which playing through the game I get 0 of that idea, and only by venturing into the sewage that is fandom, do I see.

For me, I look at the themes they've established in CC and what they've carried on into the Remake. I don't believe they have any intention of letting Zack overshadow Cloud. If anything, he's going to be another knife to be twisted deeper into Cloud's side (if he's even used at all). But again that's me and my experience of the game. And either way I don't get the focus on how other people view the game- that has no bearing on my personal enjoyment of it. And again Squeenix draws the line very clearly on how far fandom opinion will affect them (not very much in terms of major story beats, but they're happy to do fanservice) as the Remake shows.

7. Well I mean, I find this very stirring. And I don't think we widely disagree on the game itself. In fact I have bookmarked your posts for my own purposes because I do appreciate them.
But I guess because I avoided fandoms my whole life based on what I caught wind of from other people I got blindsided by how bad this one seemed. Like it came across as if people were trying to butcher the game they love by just arbitrarily deciding conspicious moments did not matter, or did not count, and it receiving 0 pushback. Maybe that's a Silent Majority being silent, or maybe no one can actually shut the crap down.

And yes KH1 and 2 I remember being hit games at the time. But I do think the fandom's excessive love of the wrong stuff in those games poisoned the outcome for the series.
Like I said, I do not feel anxiety. I am just pessimistic about some things, optimistic about others. I certainly don't think Square will ever blatantly listen to the fanbase, I just think the desire to placate is present and could be turned to bad ends.

Aww shucks, well its fun hammering out my feelings on the Remake too. I find the fandom side frustrating as well, it's why I stopped lurking and made a wall of text post. Because I saw a lot of the same opinions being parroted, without a honest reflection and consideration of the actual game.

Nah, it's not the fandom- they're shitty but not to blame for the series being the mess that it is. I'd blame Disney's greed for that. It isn't a half bad series if you shaved away the Disney parts. And most likely Squeenix is under some dumbshit contract to continuously pump out games in order to meet some Disney quota which results in lots of half-assed releases that eventually get combined into a "complete" game.

Eh that's anxiety to me dude. Worrying about stuff that the game itself doesn't reflect, and that Squeenix itself hasn't shown any inclination of doing. Plus its beyond your control. If part 2 turns out to be dogshit then eh, well it happens.

 

[Freya]

doing a replay of V now.

I'm enjoying it a lot more than I did in middle school when I first played it expecting it to be like VI

 

[The Penultimate Warrior]

No - that happens after the Remake.

Spoiler: FF7R Spoilers

But a lot of people that were supposed to die (Biggs, Wedge, Jesse) are somehow not dead and they even went so far as to imply that Zack is not dead.

They basically are writing off the PS1 FF7 as the game where all the bad shit happens so I can see them keeping Aerith alive, for a while at least.

Has it been confirmed that

Spoiler

Jessie survived? You see her glove at the end, which seems to suggest she's in alive and perhaps recovering in the same room, but you never see her. Perhaps they're deliberately building the expectation that no one is truly dead, to make losing Aerith even harder

 

[Tanner Glass]

Has it been confirmed that

Spoiler

Jessie survived? You see her glove at the end, which seems to suggest she's in alive and perhaps recovering in the same room, but you never see her. Perhaps they're deliberately building the expectation that no one is truly dead, to make losing Aerith even harder

That's as much as we got, but considering how everything else shakes out - I consider it a confirmation.

 

[The Penultimate Warrior]

That's as much as we got, but considering how everything else shakes out - I consider it a confirmation.

I actually hope that's true, she was a fun character (even if I still don't get why they all want a piece of Cloud's buster sword, when he acts in a manner that be a complete turn off to women)

 

[Too Many Catgirls]

President Shinra isn't dead either then, right? No one's ever really gone.

 

[Burned Man]

President Shinra isn't dead either then, right? No one's ever really gone.

Now I'm expecting the Rufus welcoming ceremony to be in the next part and get interrupted by the time jannies to show President Shinra is alive for no reason other then to annoy Rufus.

 

[Richard29]

3D graphics of FF3, FF4 and After Years is terrible

Maybe i wouldnt mind so much if they looked realistic in battle and zoomed the camera out more so that i could see where i am going

But this is as much of a good idea as it is to take Mario 64 from N64 game, making it 2D. It just sounds like a horrible idea.

Original, PSP or GBA is way better choice if you wanna play the older games. Then again i dont really like old FF games outside only FF2. But atleast FF4 was fine to play atleast, 3D remake version is really bad.

 

[AlexJonesGotMePregnant]

I bet they'll have cloud successfully save aerith from sephiroth only to have zack kill her or something

or they'll set up a retarded love triangle between aerith, zach, and cloud. the only reasonable resolution to that would be cloud ending up with zack and the game ending with tifa and aerith making out on jenova's corpse

 

[Berrakh]

I bet they'll have cloud successfully save aerith from sephiroth only to have zack kill her or something

or they'll set up a retarded love triangle between aerith, zach, and cloud. the only reasonable resolution to that would be cloud ending up with zack and the game ending with tifa and aerith making out on jenova's corpse

I think there is a massively nontrivial chance at an "Aerith Ending". Whether that means she dies at any point or not I cannot say.

 

[AlexJonesGotMePregnant]

I think there is a massively nontrivial chance at an "Aerith Ending". Whether that means she dies at any point or not I cannot say.

considering this is nomura and he's already thrown out the original plot, this is also a possible ending:

Final Kingdom Hearts 7 Fantasy : Mpreg Cloud