The Final Fantasy Thread

[Someone in a Tree]

She was clearly a shy dorkish girl in the original imo

What dialogue would you point to to suggest she is shy? Anything I can think of is because she is trying to lay low because she committed an act of terrorism.

 

[Berrakh]

What dialogue would you point to to suggest she is shy? Anything I can think of is because she is trying to lay low because she committed an act of terrorism.

Her manner of enjoying and wanting to continue Cloud's interest in her without actually saying it.
Either way, you say she has no personality, I say she had a more subdued personality. Lot of overlap there that the remake did change we can agree.

 

[SauceRyuKen]

Aerith was supposed to be this Japanese strong and pure woman in the original. Every translation took liberties, she's really forward about liking Cloud in the English original, I vaguely recall. ("I bet you'd like seeing me and Tifa in swimsuits!") It's meant to be a side effect of her innocence and sheltered upbringing. As well as the whole not quite human deal she's got going on. They went for the innocent angle on the remake, like when she's super hyped for cross dressing Cloud. They also play a lot with how the rough bartending brawler who does ecoterrorism as a side gig is the bashful one who treats Cloud with kiddy gloves, and the modestly dressed florist is pretty much willing to jump him in any dark alley.

She falls for him almost instantly because he reminds her of Zack. Aerith being an Ancient, there's this whole probably supernatural element to her love for Zack and then Cloud. My take on it is that it's supposed to be a love so deep it transcends even death and instantly recognizes Zack in Cloud... But really does come across as just horny pretty often.

In the end, all of the love triangle is just there for misdirection, I feel. It all plays into how Tifa was treating Cloud carefully because he came back with Zack's personality. She's even flabbergasted if you have Cloud flirt with her in the original. Aerith is super into him because she feels Zack in there. And then Aerith dies, Cloud un-Zackifies himself and his true personality comes out and Tifa starts getting a lot closer to him.

Even if it hangs out over a big part of the game, in the end it holds very little importance.

As for 7R going to be a Golden Ending, well yeah. Looking at past FFs, X was a fucking camp trip to Miseryville, and X-2 was a rainbow colored HOLY FUCK RIKKU IS ALL GROWN UP pew pew let's watch Brother kill things by ramming into them ass first Charlie's Angels ripoff. With great music and a shitty completion system. That rewarded you with a golden ending. Even that had some emotional impact, since it was really hard to do and you got to bring Tidus back. Bringing back a game that ended on a bittersweet note 20 years ago and not giving it a super happy ending would feel out of character for Squeenix. Even more so with how long it's gonna take them to do the whole thing.

That said, when Zack gets to eat Sephiroth sword or when Gackt lethally snipes him with a mako-infused apple or whatever, it'll still hold some emotional weight. Of course, this Cloud seems a little bit more Cloud than Zacloud, so he might just be alive and well. Aerith biting it seems incredibly unlikely purely on the grounds of it being a long, grindy game and losing that sort of progress is gonna prompt some strongly worded letters arriving at Squeenix. People probably don't remember, but the last game that pulled this was Metal Gear Solid V and the backlash over Quiet's death was so crazy strong, they ended up patching in a way to get her back, canon be fucked. At most, they'd have someone inherit her stats.

 

[Berrakh]

In the end, all of the love triangle is just there for misdirection, I feel. It all plays into how Tifa was treating Cloud carefully because he came back with Zack's personality. She's even flabbergasted if you have Cloud flirt with her in the original. Aerith is super into him because she feels Zack in there. And then Aerith dies, Cloud un-Zackifies himself and his true personality comes out and Tifa starts getting a lot closer to him.

Kinda but not entirely.

Even if it hangs out over a big part of the game, in the end it holds very little importance.

The love triangle isn't misdirection when Cloud's relationship to Aeris is what leads him to the climax. This is actually kinda what I mean when I say people don't get the ending and why Aeris died plotwise.

And when Zack had no character in the original and really was just a placeholder for the role Sephiroth used to fill when he had a deeper connection to Cloud and Aeris it's hard to say the idea that it's just a reflection of him in Cloud behind her attraction to Cloud. Especially now that they have characterized Zack and he's nothing like Cloud. He plainly does not have "Zack's personality" which is what you're claiming. It's more nuanced than that and always was. It also obviously has to be the case if Cloud only has motivation (that isn't just revenge) to confront Sephiroth thanks to her by the end.

The gold saucer date is pretty plainly about Aeris admitting to herself that Cloud isn't Zack 2.0 and how that doesn't even describe her feelings toward him now. It comes before she dies just to make it more tragic that a breakthrough happened far too late.

None of this matches how the consequences actually play out. It's just common fanon meant to make the shipping simpler. I mean you yourself say a large part of the game ends up being misdirection or unimportant if we take your word on it. Well that's hardly of much benefit to the game as a whole. And it's just not true.

Your description of how the two girls differ personally is also incoherent(?). Your initial idea that Aeris is more direct in the way the young girl with a crush might be is pretty valid if you read developer interviews but it seems like you changed your mind.
The only subversion with the two girls is that Tifa's more reluctant and Aeris is more willful. Tifa apparently thought baby doll lingerie was acceptable date attire afteral. So she can't be too bashful. She's just unnerved by some of Cloud's behavior while simultaneously being turned on by how cool he is.

 

[Captain Syrup]

People probably don't remember, but the last game that pulled this was Metal Gear Solid V and the backlash over Quiet's death was so crazy strong, they ended up patching in a way to get her back, canon be fucked.

Quiet's not dead, she turned to crystal
so that she could impart Venom's Lv, 4 Limit Break.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

Everyone's worried about Aerith's death while I'm still sitting here worrying about Hojo saying "Oh, how I would love to meet their offspring." in regards to her and Sephiroth.

I mean, I might be overthinking it, but that sounded a lot more like foreshadowing than a throwaway line to me.

 

[Berrakh]

Everyone's worried about Aerith's death while I'm still sitting here worrying Hojo saying "Oh, how I would love to meet their offspring." in regards to her and Sephiroth.

I mean, I might be overthinking it, but that sounded a lot more like foreshadowing than a throwaway line to me.

My bold prediction is that instead of being killed by him Aeris leaves with Sephiroth through a portal as the mystery box part two ends on.
Or Tifa jumps between Aeris and the sword. I could see that too.
Or Cloud's mental breakdown happens early.

 

[XYZpdq]

Thinking of playing an old FF on my phone.
Currently in the lead is a gba port because those are small and gba runs great, maybe FF4 ( or a version patched to eliminate the bugs from the port). Also thinking psp ports possibly too, they're kinda big so that's not so hot, but Fancy 20th Anniversary FF1 or port-of the-DS FF3 look good.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Thinking of playing an old FF on my phone

I used to dislike 5 and its lack of plot. As I got older and grew to appreciate Tactics, I was impressed by how versatile the job system is. No job can be truly called wasteful (barring the endgame when you should be using Freelancers anyway), and since there's no "wrong" way to play, I won't be paralyzed with indecision.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Why did they change her so much? Questions like that make me wonder about the development process most of all.

PADDING.

Everyone's worried about Aerith's death while I'm still sitting here worrying about Hojo saying "Oh, how I would love to meet their offspring." in regards to her and Sephiroth.

I mean, I might be overthinking it, but that sounded a lot more like foreshadowing than a throwaway line to me.

In before FF7-PS1 Sephiroth's Ghost tricking out time enough to manipulate a Timeline for him and Aerith to have super babies so he can possess one and get an ultimate body.

 

[Pissmaster]

Thinking of playing an old FF on my phone.
Currently in the lead is a gba port because those are small and gba runs great, maybe FF4 ( or a version patched to eliminate the bugs from the port). Also thinking psp ports possibly too, they're kinda big so that's not so hot, but Fancy 20th Anniversary FF1 or port-of the-DS FF3 look good.

PSP has Final Fantasy 1 through 4 and Tactics, all of which are the best versions of their respective games. PPSSPP also runs very, very well. If you can't decide, just go with FF4.

As I got older and grew to appreciate Tactics, I was blown away by how versatile the job system is. No job can be truly called wasteful ('cept in the endgame when you should be using Freelancers anyway), and since there's no "wrong" way to beat it (unlike 2 or 3), I won't be paralyzed with indecision over how to plan ahead.

That's true, though a few classes are just kinda hard to use. Like, I'd imagine training a geomancer will have you spending a lot of time grinding for job EXP by just attacking considering there are so many different kinds of tile an enemy can stand on. Summoners are also MP vortexes, so I hope you've got Move-MP Up from the oracle's skill tree. But also, mediators and calculators are a lot of fun to use, so just go hog wild and see what clicks for you.

And if the game ever gets too hard, Hamedo is an instant win skill.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

PSP has Final Fantasy 1 through 4 and Tactics, all of which are the best versions of their respective games. PPSSPP also runs very, very well. If you can't decide, just go with FF4.


That's true, though a few classes are just kinda hard to use. Like, I'd imagine training a geomancer will have you spending a lot of time grinding for job EXP by just attacking considering there are so many different kinds of tile an enemy can stand on. Summoners are also MP vortexes, so I hope you've got Move-MP Up from the oracle's skill tree. But also, mediators and calculators are a lot of fun to use, so just go hog wild and see what clicks for you.

And if the game ever gets too hard, Hamedo is an instant win skill.

I always paired Summoner with Geomancer since the Geomancy was free and was based off magic.

 

[XYZpdq]

I used to dislike 5 and its lack of plot.

As I got older and grew to appreciate Tactics, I was blown away by how versatile the job system is. No job can be truly called wasteful ('cept in the endgame when you should be using Freelancers anyway), and since there's no "wrong" way to beat it (unlike 2 or 3), I won't be paralyzed with indecision over how to plan ahead.

Five's a good idea, I poked at that a billion years ago when the early SFC patches were a thing.
I'll have to check what's around for fixing whatever bugs tosec put in the GBA version.

 

[Berrakh]

Never had a strategy for ff5 besides "level a useful class until I get a good skill and/or the level requirements get too high", then change to a new batch of classes.

 

[SauceRyuKen]

Kinda but not entirely.

The love triangle isn't misdirection when Cloud's relationship to Aeris is what leads him to the climax. This is actually kinda what I mean when I say people don't get the ending and why Aeris died plotwise.

And when Zack had no character in the original and really was just a placeholder for the role Sephiroth used to fill when he had a deeper connection to Cloud and Aeris it's hard to say yhe idea that it's just a reflection of him in Cloud behind her attraction to Cloud. Especially now that they have characterized Zack and he's nothing like Cloud.
The gold saucer date is pretty plainly about Aeris admitting to herself that Cloud isn't Zack 2.0 and how that doesn't even describe her feelings toward him now. It comes before she dies just to make it more tragic that a breakthrough happened far too late.

None of this matches how the consequences actually play out. It's just common fanon meant to make the shipping simpler.

Your description of how the two girls differ personally is also incoherent(?). Your initial idea that Aeris is more direct in the way the young girl with a crush might be is pretty valid if you read developer interviews but it seems like you changed your mind.
The only subversion with the two girls is that Tifa's more reluctant and Aeris is more willful. Tifa apparently thought baby doll lingerie was acceptable date attire afteral. So she can't be too bashful. She's just unnerved by some of Cloud's behavior while simultaneously being turned on by how cool he is.

Yeah, it really is just my take on it. Honestly, I think Tifa treats Cloud as if he's not himself. I always got that Zack was characterized through early Cloud, since what little we see of him is a confident and effective badass, and Cloud is also that. The rest, like Cloud becoming a flirt through Zack's influence was expanded in Crisis Core, and I figure a lot of that is retcons. After Cloud breaks down he just becomes a mess and loses all his confidence before eventually regaining it, but there's a big change there. I always read that as Cloud losing Zack and then growing as himself. He grows closer with Tifa during this time, too. And he regains his own forgotten memories.

Tifa wearing lingerie to a date is more conservative than her normal attire if anything, let's be real. Aeris is childlike for sure, but she's also a massive flirt. Not so much me changing my mind as her just having those two traits at once. The gold saucer date also has her stating that she saw Zack in Cloud. Then she says she wants to meet Cloud. I guess you could read it either way, but it's easy to think that without Zack's influence, Cloud and Aerith may not have hit it off so well. Again, this is where I get the idea that early Zacloud is just what Zack used to be like. And post breakdown Cloud is just Cloud. Then angsty Advent Cloud is just poorly written Cloud.

Aerith and Tifa, the two links to Zack and Cloud's past, react to him in these very meaningful ways. Hardly a shipping implement, I personally find the reveal that Cloud has gone around larping some dude he briefly met due to a combination of grief, trauma and mako overdose a bigger deal than Cloud and the death battle of the manic pixie dream girls.

The thing about Tifa is that she's probably very willing, more so than Aeris even, but is put off by the concerning changes in Cloud. She's the only one who met Cloud before. They touched more on this in the Remake, but I think it was already there in the original. Tifa is definitely not trying to suppress an attraction to new and improved Cloud, she's freaked out by a change she feels is unnatural. If you pick the flirty options with her in the original, she folds really fast. I think all this serves more to foreshadow the real juicy twists rather than to just be a story on it's own. After Cloud's breakdown, Tifa is there to pick up the pieces immediately, and I don't think there's much doubt to their relationship being romantic from then on. Even if the tone is much darker and there's no more fun stuff like flirting or dates.

As for Aeris driving the plot, yes, but you could just as well cut the romance betweem Aeris and Cloud and it'd work just the same. Aeris is an Ancient so she's special. She can save the planet. Avalanche wants that too. Plenty of reason for them to help her on her quest. The romance is nice, but I would argue it ends up being a much less important plot point. A lot of the FFs from this era have this Knight and Heroic Princess dynamic, and while Cloud is definitely Aeris' knight for a while, it's up in the air whether it's Zack from beyond the grave, Cloud, or a bit of both. Aeris saying she doesn't even know Cloud implies that the initial contact was mostly due to Zack's influence. Even if they have grown past that by the point she dies, they never really get any further. Squall's motivation is Rinoa and his love for her to a much larger extent. Tidus would have likewise saved Yuna even if they didn't fall in love. I agree that the love triangle is important, but by the end it's comparatively small with everything else going on.

It's how I feel the story makes the most sense. It really isn't about shipping to me, and obviously it's not any more valid than anyone else's takes on this. But I always felt the main motivations were do mercenary work, stop Sephiroth, and save the planet, and the romance elements, while important and very well executed and enjoyable, you could ultimately cut and the story would still work. They're important, but not essential to the narrative.

 

[The Littlest Shitlord]

That's true, though a few classes are just kinda hard to use. Like, I'd imagine training a geomancer will have you spending a lot of time grinding for job EXP by just attacking considering there are so many different kinds of tile an enemy can stand on.

It's based on the tile type the user is standing on, not the target, which is something you have a lot more control over. Also, the abilities are only 150 JP each, which isn't that bad. Go for the most most common terrain types first, you can't go wrong with Tanglevine/Hell Ivy; grass is very very common, and the Stop effect is good when it happens. Magma Surge/Lava Ball is useless since the terrain is not just rare, but you normally can't even walk on it.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Never had a strategy for ff5 besides "level a useful class until I get a good skill and/or the level requirements get too high", then change to a new batch of classes.

You get what you put in. A simple Knight with two-handed will never have to change jobs once. Though they'll have trouble later on with enemies that can counter melee attacks.

The "Four Job Fiesta" thing arose from that. You can roll the dice with random jobs and formulate strategies to win.

 

[XYZpdq]

I was thinking Tactics, but I've never like turn-based strategy
my first exposure to that sort of thing was tabletop Battletech, so I got into it more as "this is a thing to do with your pals"
but despite not getting into it I love the Fushigi Dungeon stuff

I _am_ poking at Front Mission a little bit, so maybe that'll get me into it

 

[Captain Syrup]

I _am_ poking at Front Mission a little bit, so maybe that'll get me into it

I made the mistake of starting with Front Mission 4.

Very dry storyline, missile turrets constantly firing at my team, and I just couldn't deal.

I gave up, looked up a FAQ, unlocked a hidden bazooka, and still got my ass kicked.

 

[Berrakh]

Yeah, it really is just my take on it. Honestly, I think Tifa treats Cloud as if he's not himself. I always got that Zack was characterized through early Cloud, since what little we see of him is a confident and effective badass, and Cloud is also that. The rest, like Cloud becoming a flirt through Zack's influence was expanded in Crisis Core, and I figure a lot of that is retcons. After Cloud breaks down he just becomes a mess and loses all his confidence before eventually regaining it, but there's a big change there. I always read that as Cloud losing Zack and then growing as himself. He grows closer with Tifa during this time, too. And he regains his own forgotten memories.

Tifa wearing lingerie to a date is more conservative than her normal attire if anything, let's be real. Aeris is childlike for sure, but she's also a massive flirt. Not so much me changing my mind as her just having those two traits at once. The gold saucer date also has her stating that she saw Zack in Cloud. Then she says she wants to meet Cloud. I guess you could read it either way, but it's easy to think that without Zack's influence, Cloud and Aerith may not have hit it off so well. Again, this is where I get the idea that early Zacloud is just what Zack used to be like. And post breakdown Cloud is just Cloud. Then angsty Advent Cloud is just poorly written Cloud.

Aerith and Tifa, the two links to Zack and Cloud's past, react to him in these very meaningful ways. Hardly a shipping implement, I personally find the reveal that Cloud has gone around larping some dude he briefly met due to a combination of grief, trauma and mako overdose a bigger deal than Cloud and the death battle of the manic pixie dream girls.

The thing about Tifa is that she's probably very willing, more so than Aeris even, but is put off by the concerning changes in Cloud. She's the only one who met Cloud before. They touched more on this in the Remake, but I think it was already there in the original. Tifa is definitely not trying to suppress an attraction to new and improved Cloud, she's freaked out by a change she feels is unnatural. If you pick the flirty options with her in the original, she folds really fast. I think all this serves more to foreshadow the real juicy twists rather than to just be a story on it's own. After Cloud's breakdown, Tifa is there to pick up the pieces immediately, and I don't think there's much doubt to their relationship being romantic from then on. Even if the tone is much darker and there's no more fun stuff like flirting or dates.

As for Aeris driving the plot, yes, but you could just as well cut the romance betweem Aeris and Cloud and it'd work just the same. Aeris is an Ancient so she's special. She can save the planet. Avalanche wants that too. Plenty of reason for them to help her on her quest. The romance is nice, but I would argue it ends up being a much less important plot point. A lot of the FFs from this era have this Knight and Heroic Princess dynamic, and while Cloud is definitely Aeris' knight for a while, it's up in the air whether it's Zack from beyond the grave, Cloud, or a bit of both. Aeris saying she doesn't even know Cloud implies that the initial contact was mostly due to Zack's influence. Even if they have grown past that by the point she dies, they never really get any further. Squall's motivation is Rinoa and his love for her to a much larger extent. Tidus would have likewise saved Yuna even if they didn't fall in love. I agree that the love triangle is important, but by the end it's comparatively small with everything else going on.

It's how I feel the story makes the most sense. It really isn't about shipping to me, and obviously it's not any more valid than anyone else's takes on this. But I always felt the main motivations were do mercenary work, stop Sephiroth, and save the planet, and the romance elements, while important and very well executed and enjoyable, you could ultimately cut and the story would still work. They're important, but not essential to the narrative.

I think we might just have to agree to disagree but I'll play along for now.

I think you're right in broad strokes but opting for some much too easy answers. It's worth noting that a lot of these views become popular not back in 1997 but with the release of Crisis Core. Because they really are about managing a static view of each character and who belongs with no rather than what works in service of the original's dramatic structure. This is also why I am dismissive of them, not just because I think they're wrong and cripple the story, but because they're often ingenuine

But I don't think you're being ingenuine so I'll be respond where I disagree. Spoilering it because it's possibly annoying. If I had to summarize I think your perspective is mistaken because it turns the two most active protagonists into walking backstories instead of agents in an unfolding frontstory with also backstories. Cloud is just Nibelheim and Aeris is just Zack. Not dynamic characters who have a past they have to confront but are now narratively forbidden from meaningfully stepping outside of those shadows. Obviously the main way they do this is by finding one another. Aeris has no direct connection to Nibelheim, Cloud isn't Zack. Zack bridges their backstories in a 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of way but that never explains where their relationship goes. It ends up being something distinct from those other aspects of their life. In fact it still actually irritates Tifa that Cloud is living in Aeris' Church for this reason (not my preferred choice with her character but it's true)

And ultimately staging her death scene the way they do with Cloud crying or whatever essentially locks the story into treating this relationship as more than an accident of fate anyway.

Spoiler: deep dive

The gold saucer date also has her stating that she saw Zack in Cloud.

Well literally what she says is that she realizes there are superficial similarities between the two. Body language, appearance, etc. It's not a personality thing. So her initial attraction is based on a recognition of Zack but not seeing Cloud as Zack. Because, even in the original, Cloud's own explanation for his persona was that he adopted Zack's achievements. Not his personality.

I agree it certainly makes more sense if we froze time back in 1997 but that's why it's worth pointing out this theory only gained traction once people became invested in Crisis Core's story.

Moreover Cloud's persona is more or less what Cloud thought a cool badass would be like. Standoffish, curt, etc. All things he exhibited as a child as well. Keep this in mind for my next part...

Aerith and Tifa, the two links to Zack and Cloud's past, react to him in these very meaningful ways. Hardly a shipping implement, I personally find the reveal that Cloud has gone around larping some dude he briefly met due to a combination of grief, trauma and mako overdose a bigger deal than Cloud and the death battle of the manic pixie dream girls.

I really disagree for the above reason. As I think this way strips out too much agency and character from Cloud. And also from the more important of the two girls in the process.
And, it devalues her death as a moment of significance to him. Are those actually his feelings now? And if they are were they under a false pretense of her loving him sincerely? These are not good questions to be asking about that scene imo.

I think the death battle of the two girls is actually better. Going off of the original since that's finished and more coherent we have a situation where Cloud's desire to save people. obtain recognition as a hero, and so on is realized very early on in his interactions with Aeris. And later we learn that these feelings were initially born from Tifa, who also had fantasies of being rescued that are again visited upon another girl before then. Yes it's a corny love triangle but there are deep character insights at play there. And from Aeris' point of view it is Cloud who actually puts her on a course with her own destiny. She starts of depending on him as a bodyguard. something mired in video game tropes about how girls in pink dresses ought to be treated, but later leaves him to do the most consequential thing anyone in the plot does. This is why her death and Cloud's reaction to it are still tragic even though she's not really gone and is in fact reunited with Zack. Because ultimately, in universe and without, she was written around her relationship to Cloud.

As for Aeris driving the plot, yes, but you could just as well cut the romance betweem Aeris and Cloud and it'd work just the same. Aeris is an Ancient so she's special. She can save the planet. Avalanche wants that too. Plenty of reason for them to help her on her quest. The romance is nice, but I would argue it ends up being a much less important plot point. A lot of the FFs from this era have this Knight and Heroic Princess dynamic, and while Cloud is definitely Aeris' knight for a while, it's up in the air whether it's Zack from beyond the grave, Cloud, or a bit of both. Aeris saying she doesn't even know Cloud implies that the initial contact was mostly due to Zack's influence. Even if they have grown past that by the point she dies, they never really get any further. Squall's motivation is Rinoa and his love for her to a much larger extent. Tidus would have likewise saved Yuna even if they didn't fall in love. I agree that the love triangle is important, but by the end it's comparatively small with everything else going on.

You could say the same with Tifa. Her story doesn't require romance and could be easily edited not to have it. The reason, if you don't know, for the love triangle is that initially there was no Tifa. Or at least Tifa wasn't a playable character. There was just Aeris, and Aeris was written to be a romantic foil to Cloud. Then they decided to kill her off but didn't want there to be no other heroine.
And there's also the fact that while the story and emotions of Cloud could be done without romance to Aeris they'd feel very tacky without romance. His eulogistic monologue, his wanting closure for his failure (which is in the original game as well), and the way in which they manipulate the player into imbuing the Pink Princess with that kind of gravitas are all dependent on them being more than friends.

Aeris' initial trust of Cloud was maybe helped by him resembling Zack but there's a limited extent that can run when he just isn't much like Zack beyond that. It just allows the developers to skip awkwardly bumbling around with these two when there's only so much time with one of them.
I'd argue it's less of an issue than Tifa responding best to Cloud's newfound coolness and having to learn that this isn't really him. I could only imagine Aeris would like a Cloud who is more forthright and less supercilious. I guess I just don't see the fire here.

And I don't agree the love triangle is comparatively small by the end. Maybe the triangle part of it is but... it feels like a pretty immoderate thing. People saying "it's just Zack's influence" really are dismissing how the relationship is used in the game itself. It's much more consequential than even his relationship to Tifa.