The Hobbit Autopsy Questions

[genericwhitemale]

So I just finished watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the first time yesterday, and I've decided I might check out The Hobbit. However, before I'd even watched the LOTR trilogy, I was already aware of the negative perception of the Hobbit trilogy - mostly criticising the excessive length - and decided that I'd watch Maple Film's 2015 fan edit "J.R.R. Tolkein's The Hobbit", which cuts down an 8 hour long trilogy (9 hour if you're watching the extended versions) into a 4.5 hour long movie with an intermission in the middle, so you'd watch it the same way you'd watch a movie like Once upon a time in America or Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet.
But after watching the LOTR trilogy, I've wanted to do some more research about what happened behind the scenes. Specifically, I wanted to know the specific details that were confirmed, rather than simply operating off conjecture. I've been trying my best to look into exactly what happens, but maybe some of you guys can correct me if I've fucked anything up. From what I've read:
· After the release of Return of the King, New Line cinema (the studio behind the LOTR trilogy) struck a deal with MGM to co-produce The Hobbit.
· Peter Jackson didn't want to make the Hobbit because he didn't want to compete/have it compare to his LOTR trilogy
· Guillermo del Toro signed on to direct and Jackson was executive producer
· Del Toro's plan was to adapt the book into two movies, released in 2011 and 2012 respectively
· In 2010, MGM filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and that raised questions about the movie going forward
· In response to the frequent delays and changing schedule, del Toro left the project in 2010
· Jackson, while reluctant, decided to take the reigns as director
· Presumably because of MGM's financial state, they wanted the film to release as soon as possible and gave Peter Jackson little to no time for any pre-production
· Jackson later admitted he had "no idea what [he] was doing" when it came to filming the Hobbit, because he essentially had to make up a lot of what he was doing as he went along
· In the summer of 2012, a few months before the release of An Unexpected Journey, Jackson announced it would be a trilogy instead of two movies
· This decision served two purposes: it meant MGM could be saved from bankruptcy while also relieving the pressure placed on Jackson to get the film released on such a tight schedule.
· Apparently all the behind the scenes footage shows Jackson et al frustrated and exhausted
Do I have that right?

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

Jackson later admitted he had "no idea what [he] was doing" when it came to filming the Hobbit, because he essentially had to make up a lot of what he was doing as he went along

I don't see why that should have been a problem. Isn't that his usual storytelling method?

 

[Standardized Profile]

Also he filmed it all in 48 fps 3D, which meant a lot of his forced perspective tricks wouldn't work. That meant a lot more green screen, and a lot more Ian McKellan standing in a room by himself acting against 13 people who weren't actually there. He did not react well to that. And audiences, being unused to 48 frames per second, felt it looked fake. That's a different can of worms.

 

[Shig O'nella]

... a lot more Ian McKellan standing in a room by himself acting against 13 people who weren't actually there. He did not react well to that.

That is a masterful example of understatement.

 

[Absolutego]

I absolutely loved the behind the scenes features for the original trilogy and watched it nonstop while doodling as a teenager. I have watched the Hobbit behind the scenes once, and only once.
Saying Jackson was frustrated/exhausted in them is an understatement. He was fucking miserable making those movies. Even his defense of some of the obviously studio-mandated creative changes were less than half hearted. Him and Philippa Boyens justifying Tamriel felt like watching a hostage negotiation.

 

[augment]

I forgot why they cast Billy Connolly as Dain, only to have him replaced by a cgi wax model at the end. An Unexpected Journey took too many creative freedoms with the background on what happened to Thror and the dwarves at Moria. The rest of the movies just pile up over another on wrong choices after another.
At least Lee Pace as Thranduil was brilliant.

 

[Absolutego]

I forgot why they cast Billy Connolly as Dain, only to have him replaced by a cgi wax model at the end. An Unexpected Journey took too many creative freedoms with the background on what happened to Thror and the dwarves at Moria. The rest of the movies just pile up over another on wrong choices after another.
At least Lee Pace as Thranduil was brilliant.

IIRC Connolly has the shakes now and looked really old/bad in his performance as Dain. The wax model was better than whatever existing footage they had of him.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

I always heard stories that the change from 2 to 3 films caused a lot of fuck ups that had to be quickly fixed with rushed reshoots and CGI. Specifically I heard this is why they ditched the practical Azog and Bolg for CGI because they had to switch roles or something for everything to make sense chronologically or something.

 

[Absolutego]

I always heard stories that the change from 2 to 3 films caused a lot of fuck ups that had to be quickly fixed with rushed reshoots and CGI. Specifically I heard this is why they ditched the practical Azog and Bolg for CGI because they had to switch roles or something for everything to make sense chronologically or something.

Like most of the movie's errors, Azog and Bolg got turned to CGI because Jackson had like 1/3rd the time to prep as he had for the LOTR trilogy, and he couldn't settle on a design.
I think they went through 5 Azog designs in six months, none of the prosthetic kits were filming-friendly, and ultimately Jackson just decided to make him the CGI albino abomination we all got to see.
It's actually quite sad how much he just fell back on CGI whenever he encountered production issues. IIRC there was a really sad bit in one of the Hobbit behind the scenes bits where a modeler was lamenting how little he got to do for these movies compared to the original trilogy.

 

[Stoneheart]

Now go watch the german dub of lord of the rings. its a totaly different experience and makes the hobbit look even worse.
The german audio mix is a bit flatter, a bit cleaner and uses the music even better. it makes the movie feel like a Wagner play at times.

 

[TheHarbinger]

Also he filmed it all in 48 fps 3D.

Not quite all. There was that GoPro advertisement forced into the ridiculous barrel riding scene. Jackson changed the barrel riding scene from a leisurely affair to a breakneck action sequence. And instead of using the extremely high end and expensive cameras he demanded for every other shot, he used $5 GoPro cameras you can get on ebay. There are threads on Tolkien sites and forums where you will get brigaded for criticising the use of GoPros which is hilarious.

The difference in the book barrel scene and the movie version is absurd. Orcs, elves, battles. When the book is mostly Bilbo contending with the various ways he can attack an apple pie on a campfire.

Like most of the movie's errors, Azog and Bolg got turned to CGI because Jackson had like 1/3rd the time to prep as he had for the LOTR trilogy, and he couldn't settle on a design.

Azog should not have been in the movie in the first place. That is the error. Using CGI of course was just lazy film making. They knew that the orcs looked fine using practical effects and costumes. They had done it before to great praise in the LOTR films. They could have whipped up the same costumes quickly. They do it all of the time for things like Alien or Predator where Studio ADI does not need to design the monsters from scratch. The designs were already there. They just cut every corner because they had an established franchise and putting in cheap CGI and GoPro shots would not make a difference to the loser Peter Jackson fans who are mindless at this point. The Hobbit budgets were massive. They just cut every corner to pocket the money for themselves Jackson included. New Line Cinema to this day says that LOTR lost money.

For Alien 4 they made a bunch of CGI Aliens in the swimming sequences because the studio would not give them the time to make a practical swimming alien but they delayed as much as they could. In the end they could not get a practical swimming suit and were forced to use CGI or cut the scene because the studio had delayed the project too much. Years later when AvP:R was being made, they wrote a scene with a swimming alien just so that the effects studio could make a practical swimming alien. The scene where the Xeno is in the high school's pool is practical. And AvP:R was made under $40million and they still built all sorts of new sets and monsters. It looks like a $100million film in many shots. AvP1 as well was made on a low budget but looks like a $100million film. Peter Jackson has no excuse other than pocketing money and getting his fans to wave his behavior away.

I think they went through 5 Azog designs in six months, none of the prosthetic kits were filming-friendly, and ultimately Jackson just decided to make him the CGI albino abomination we all got to see.

This same thing happened with the Star Wars prequels. They went from models and prosthetics to nothing but CGI and green screens. The behind the scenes for the Star Wars prequels and Hobbit movies have the same sets and designs. Two or three actors are in a completely green room from ceiling to floor. And are playing off of a pingpong ball hanging from a string. There are hundreds of podcast interviews with people from the Star Wars prequels lamenting how they could show up on set and be alone in a blue or green room acting off of a stand-in performer. For hours on end. While Lucas gave them nothing to work with if he even showed up at all. Hobbit films were the same.

You can always tell if someone read LOTR before watching the movies. As they generally do not like the movies. LOTR trilogy is like "baby's first Tolkien". Written for idiots and Harry Potter fans. Needs more dwarf tossing and shield surfing and less WW1 and Christianity references. I always thought that the LOTR movies were pathetic and that Peter Jackson was a hack. The Hobbit trilogy is just more of him being unrestrained and being able to really be himself. Just like Lucas was with the Star Wars prequels. And they both have armies of deluded sycophants and fanboys to worship them and white knight and defend them no matter how appalling their outputs are. And just like Star Wars got its garbage sequels and cinematic universe we are getting Rings of Power and other filth. But at least Lucas created Star Wars and did something mostly original. Jackson never created anything original in Tolkien's world (except for niggers in Laketown).

 

[Standardized Profile]

I absolutely loved the behind the scenes features for the original trilogy and watched it nonstop while doodling as a teenager. I have watched the Hobbit behind the scenes once, and only once.
Saying Jackson was frustrated/exhausted in them is an understatement. He was fucking miserable making those movies. Even his defense of some of the obviously studio-mandated creative changes were less than half hearted. Him and Philippa Boyens justifying Tamriel felt like watching a hostage negotiation.

The Hobbit BTS featurettes are more interesting than the movies themselves. More interesting characters, better drama, and arguably greater stakes. (Jackson's LotR ignored the war in the north, so the absence or presence of Smaug doesn't really matter.) I didn't like the movies but darn if I didn't come to appreciate the people behind them a little bit more when I saw all the work they did. It just was not meant to be.

 

[Absolutego]

The Hobbit BTS featurettes are more interesting than the movies themselves. More interesting characters, better drama, and arguably greater stakes. (Jackson's LotR ignored the war in the north, so the absence or presence of Smaug doesn't really matter.) I didn't like the movies but darn if I didn't come to appreciate the people behind them a little bit more when I saw all the work they did. It just was not meant to be.

A solid half of the Hobbit trilogy's faults would be fixed had Warner Bros. given him another year of prep. Or if they'd done more to keep Guillermo around in the first place.
Honestly, loving that creative community that cropped up in NZ with the first trilogy made the Hobbit BTS stuff all the more painful. Jamie Beswarick looks like he had a freight train ran over him in those videos. He's posting Rings of Power stuff now that's almost sadder than the Hobbit extras.

 

[GrammaNazi]

Check out the Rankin animated Hobbit from 1977. Animated Hobbit You will not want to watch any other version after seeing this.

 

[XYZpdq]

I think there's a good idea of what GdT was thinking of for Hobbit in Hellboy 2, the wood elves, the big underground place with the massive army, the wandering around countrysides with fantastical beings

 

[Absolutego]

I think there's a good idea of what GdT was thinking of for Hobbit in Hellboy 2, the wood elves, the big underground place with the massive army, the wandering around countrysides with fantastical beings

Imagine his version of Smaug. Cumberbatch wasn't the worst casting choice, though it was a bit trendy at the time, but just imagine how fucking weird and intimidating GDT's Smaug would have wound up being.
We certainly wouldn't have had loony toons with the dragon running around the Lonely Mountain until he gets coated in gold had GDT been in charge.

 

[Calandrino]

Peter Jackson has had a very odd career trajectory. His early movies were good but don't exactly mark him as the dude you'd want to head up the biggest movie project ever. Yet somehow he got the job, and won nigh-universal acclaim and massive commercial success, going head-to-head with the Star Wars prequels and coming out on top. And all his stuff since then is like LotR except lousy.