The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

I fully understand this point of view, but I disagree with it. Some of them are charlatans (lying to others or themselves), which is why there are so many fake denier documents (like the "Red Cross" document which is not from the Red Cross and is deliberatly mistranslated). But some believe it, like some honestly believe in Scientology or the idea that Bush lanned 911 because science.

I do not think we can justly punish people for honestly held belief, or trust the state and silicon valley to discern between historical truth and laws (which is a power we are implicitly granting them when we promote criminlization and censorship of denial).

I am usually emotionally detached when I am reading documents about the Holocaust, and I think historians should try much harder to assume a more detached tone when writing about the Nazis, to be honest.

But while I am generally quite detached, there are a couple times where I got emotional eading about Nazi atrocities.

The worst probably was when I saw pictures of the results of Nazi "medical experiments," such as attempts at different types of sterilization and mustard gas experiments. I saw these at the Shapell Center, the archives of the USHMM. Many of these photos are "limited use" at the archives because of privacy considerations. But I actually had permission from the Holocaust Musem's archives in to take pictures of these for my purposes (debunking denial), and I had these pictures on a USB drive. But in the end I just could not bear the thought of being the one to bring these pictures to Holocaust deniers, with how cruelly and stupidly they would "dissect" these pictures to "discredit" the idea that these children and inmates were tortured.

So you destroyed these images for the sake of humanity Matthew?

 

[History Speaks]

So you destroyed these images for the sake of humanity Matthew?

I would not use such dramatic language, but whatever sense of humanity I do have prevented me from parading these pictures of tortured innocent people--including women and children--to cruel conspiracy theorists who would make fun of them. I do not need these pictures to discredit denial or the Nazis.

They are not "destroyed," anyone can go to the Shapell Center and see them. Maybe laypeople do not know this, but one does not have to be a historian to go to historical archives. This is another topic but actually a lot of regular people could figure out archives and do research so long as they had the language skills.

 

[Mothra1988]

I fully understand this point of view, but I disagree with it. Some of them are charlatans (lying to others or themselves), which is why there are many fake denier documents (like the "Red Cross" document which is not from the Red Cross and is deliberately mistranslated). But some believe it, like some honestly believe in Scientology or the idea that Bush lanned 911 because science.

I do not think we can justly punish people for honestly held belief, or trust the state and silicon valley to discern between historical truth and laws (which is a power we are implicitly granting them when we promote criminlization and censorship of denial).

I am usually emotionally detached when I am reading documents about the Holocaust, and I think historians should try much harder to assume a more detached tone when writing about the Nazis, to be honest.

But while I am generally quite detached, there are a couple times where I got emotional eading about Nazi atrocities.

The worst probably was when I saw pictures of the results of Nazi "medical experiments," such as attempts at different types of sterilization and mustard gas experiments. I saw these at the Shapell Center, the archives of the USHMM. Many of these photos are "limited use" at the archives because of privacy considerations related to the dignity of the victims or to their surviving families. But I actually had permission from the Holocaust Musem's archives in to take pictures of these for my purposes (debunking denial), and I had these pictures on a USB drive. But in the end I just could not bear the thought of being the one to bring these pictures to Holocaust deniers, with how cruelly and stupidly they would "dissect" these pictures to "discredit" the idea that these children and inmates were tortured.

Gonna check out now all. Need a bit of a break from this joint and my vacation is over. But I will be back soon. Maybe tomorrow.

You are being extremely naive. The percentage of these people that are charlatans are close to 99 percent. You have to consider that the origins of this particular modern iteration of neo-nazism is a branch of image board culture which has its origins in multiple layer irony and trolling people. You need to go lower than the surface with these people's mindsets. They know the Holocaust happened and they don't care. If they were true blue believers, they wouldn't be for edgy bullshit like eugenics and murdering Jews in the present day which they openly admit they are for.

The Lake of Fire is a Biblical reference. I didn't say anything about government punishment.

 

[Chugger]

You do get your question that will get an answer. Fire away.

Lemming. I was waiting for the opportune time to call on you. That time is now. I hope you are ready.

mrolonzo said: "Because the Soviets likely tampered with the historical record. This is supported by their general falsity in a range of related areas and thus the lack of outbound records."

I have no faith in mrolonzo answering my follow up question, so I will direct it to you. @JohnDoe or anyone else is welcome to try their hand. @JohnDoe speaks of a 'moon resettlement' and I like this term. Yes it is possible the Nazis used UFOs to transport all the Jews to the moon. The evidentiary case for this is actually no weaker than the case for them being alive somewhere in Russia, and it would also solve the question of why there's no evidence of them turning up after the war. Though they would have to be living on the dark side of the moon obviously.

Anyway--above mrolonzo is making the conjecture that the Soviets somehow destroyed or hid all the evidence of the deported Jews being alive somewhere, and that is why none of it has ever surfaced. I imagine this would mean destroying a lot of documents, maybe millions, but let's assume the Soviets were very thorough

however, in addition to the missing documents, there is also a curious (complete) absence of witness evidence of the deported Jews being alive somewhere

these witnesses would have to include

2-4 million deported Jews and anyone they might have talked to about their experiences​

​

1-60 million Soviet citizens who would have witnessed the deported Jews being alive somewhere. This depends on how secretive the Germans and then the Soviets were about what they did with the deported Jews. If they simply let the deported Jews out to roam the land, likely many would hear about it and spread stories​

​

100k to 5 million Germans and allied forces who would have witnessed the deported Jews being alive somewhere. Even if the camps were super secretive, many thousands of Germans would be needed to guard them, and there would have been thousands more witnesses to the massive transports of deported Jews being sent somewhere. After the war a significant portion of these people (more than half probably) would reside outside the iron curtain.​

(these numbers should be considered rough and there is overlap but my point is it's a lot of witnesses)

10, 20, 50 years have passed. the ussr is no more. over this time not a single testimony, book, statement, whatever has surfaced or been found that suggests the deported Jews were actually alive somewhere

we can look again at the resettlement of Jews in the of Transnistria as a reasonable control sample for what we might expect to see in German held USSR

Rapechu discovered that in addition to undoubtedly thousands of documents, oral histories (collections of witness statements) exist which give us a picture of what life was like on a near microscopic level. We have the ghetto of dzhurin for example, or Shargarod, a ghetto of 7000, which a historian recently covered in pretty good detail

even settlements so small that their population wasn't recorded in censuses taken by the government are evidenced in witness testimony

Rapechu found this one

My older brother Shmil remained in the camp. To his wife managed to escape and get to Mogilev, and he with two children stayed in the camp. He does not have money or valuables for ransom was, and yet, promising to pay at the place of arrival, he managed persuade the guide and, together with other prisoners, got out with two babies in her arms from the camp. It was in winter, almost Without clothing. First one child freezes, the ground is frozen, it is impossible to bury, everyone is urged to move faster, Shmil leaves the child right in the forest. All behind the first the second child freezes. The same story. Reaching Mogilev, Shmil learns that his wife and son were taken to camp Ananiev, which is near Odessa. After liberation, they met in Mogilev, having lost two children frozen. Riva until her release she remained in Dzigovka. Pesya survived spent the whole war underground in the village of Kapisterna near relatives of the husband. Until my release, I remained in in the Mogilev ghetto, wandered, slept where necessary. Mama not allowed to come to the hospital, only tried to get and brought me food.
-Maurice Bronstein "Loop"

It turns out that people (and maybe Jews especially) talk about what happened to them in great detail.

We can step back and see the Jewish population of Transnistria was around 80,000 in 1942. Again, their existence is evidenced in near-microscopic detail in terms of witness testimony

The number of deported Jews for which no record exists of being alive somewhere is between 2-4 million.

How does something like this happen? Walk me through it. No evidence is necessary, your imagination is fine.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Respectfully, this is not comparable. Or even just reasonable given the circumstances. I asked you a yes/no question that required you to read 2 lines to comment on. You're asking me a 831 word question with 4 links included.

Before I answer a question like this there are quite a few facts that would have to be verified for me to even begin to think of how I would imagine things would be possible or not. As a result a question like this takes hours to get into. I suggest you shorten your question somewhat and instead of stating certain things as fact, make them hypothetical, so I don't have to verify them. Or ask my opinion about a single of those facts.

It doesn't have to be 2 sentences, but make it something more reasonable to respond to. If you don't want to do that, I'll give you an answer to this one, but I'll warn you in that case the answer will be less reasonable as well.

 

[JohnDoe]

@Chugger

I have no faith in mrolonzo answering my follow up question, so I will direct it to you. @JohnDoe or anyone else is welcome to try their hand. @JohnDoe speaks of a 'moon resettlement' and I like this term. Yes it is possible the Nazis used UFOs to transport all the Jews to the moon. The evidiciencary case for this is actually no weaker than the case

I like the phase MOON RESETTLEMENT as a glib way to remark that you create a strawman position and then task people to then try and defend whatever ridiculous thing you've made up, a clear attempt in bad faith to dodge arguments and try reversing the burden of proof. Whether there exists any evidence of Moon Resettlement or not has no relationship whatsoever to your consistent and repeated inability or unwillingness to defend your points. Stop throwing out these desperate attempts to distract the issue and defend your points or kindly suck start a shotgun.

How does something like this happen? Walk me through it. No evidence is necessary,

Of course you would be okay with no evidence, you thoughtlessly believe any breathlessly incredible (in the sense of unbelievable) story that fits with your narrative. Regardless, I reject your demands that I defend a position I've never advanced and that isn't germane - you have the burden of proof. So kindly produce the material evidence needed to back up your incredible claims.

 

[Aves]

Lemming wise and John Doe, what exactly has Chugger said that he hasn’t backed up or answered yet? This thread is hard to follow with people continuously jumping topics, Chugger likely didn’t see your posts or replies.

 

[Chugger]

Lemming, well you'll have to forgive me here because you did say

I'll answer any one question from my perspective if you answer this one:

but fair enough. i think the question I'm asking here (which I've asked you before) is impossible to answer, even using pure conjecture, unless you're gonna say something like the Soviets had access to some MIB neuralyzer mass memory wipe technology

carry on. consider my other answer to you a freebie and a gesture of good will.

a strawman position

what's the strawman position exactly? deniers believe millions of deported Jews were alive somewhere in Russia post 1942 and there is no witness or documentary evidence of this. I'm asking why this is.

btw I did offer some evidence to you directly earlier, to which you did not respond

Yeah the biggest difference between the orthodox and revisionist narratives is the large amount of positive evidence backing the former, and the absence of positive evidence for the latter

If you're interested in looking at the documentary evidence for mass gassing, you should start at the beginning, which would be the Wetzel letter and Gas Van documents of 41/42

Contemporary German Documents on Homicidal Gas Vans

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

 

[Lemmingwise]

but fair enough. i think the question I'm asking here (which I've asked you before) is impossible to answer, even using pure conjecture, unless you're gonna say something like the Soviets had access to some MIB neuralyzer mass memory wipe technology

carry on. consider my other answer to you a freebie and a gesture of good will.

I'm genuinely willing to answer the question if you make it a shorter question.

 

[JohnDoe]

what's the strawman position exactly? deniers believe millions of deported Jews were alive somewhere in Russia post 1942 and there is no witness or documentary evidence of this. I'm asking why this is.

Its completely irrelevant to me. Post some pictures of the magic cremators.

what's the strawman position exactly? deniers believe millions of deported Jews were alive somewhere in Russia post 1942 and there is no witness or documentary evidence of this. I'm asking why this is.

btw I did offer some evidence to you directly earlier, to which you did not respond

Oh oh I'm so sorry, let me see, here's my response to your posting of a link purporting to be the memo written some guy's roomate's coworker's former dentist's cousin's ex-wife's brother dictated to his Soviet interrogators. Its immaterial and without value. Try again.

 

[Aves]

I'm genuinely willing to answer the question if you make it a shorter question.

I think he is trying to ask why there is a huge lack of evidence supporting the idea that millions of Jews were sent to the east, even though many (not all) deniers tend to say there was a mass resettlement of them.

 

[Chugger]

I'm genuinely willing to answer the question if you make it a shorter question.

a shorter question would be - why is there no witness evidence of any of the supposedly 2-4 million deported Jews living somewhere? but this is no easier to answer, and relies on 'facts that have to be verified' - in this case I suggest you follow in the footsteps of Rapechu, that prince among deniers, and begin to look into the matter

Oh oh I'm so sorry, let me see, here's my response to your posting of a link purporting to be the memo written some guy's roomate's coworker's former dentist's cousin's ex-wife's brother dictated to his Soviet interrogators. Its immaterial and without value. Try again.

So you're saying no documents, witness testimony, or forensic reports can be used--only photos of the mass killing technology are acceptable. What if the Germans banned photography here?

we have documents to this effect lol , and I wouldn't expect them to do it anyway

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

A shame that they can never produce actual direct evidence, just memos from some guy's cousin's former roommate's coworker's mechanic's brother in law and blurry aerial photographs.

and I had these pictures on a USB drive. But in the end I just could not bear the thought of being the one to bring these pictures to Holocaust deniers

This thread is hilarious.

 

[Marley Rathbone]

Why hasn't the pro-holocaust narrative been decisively laid out 132 pages ago?

Are they having problems finding actual proof and not stories about some woman who kept swallowing and shitting out her families diamonds for three years to protect them from Nazi's?

 

[Aves]

Why hasn't the pro-holocaust narrative been decisively laid out 132 pages ago?

Are they having problems finding actual proof and not stories about some woman who kept swallowing and shitting out her families diamonds for three years to protect them from Nazi's?

Probably because the thread is more of a Q&A session.

Also, the holocaust is pretty complicated, if you have read the works of any holocaust believers or deniers, their stuff is incredibly long and has like a million citations.

 

[Stan]

@mrolonzo I’m not throwing ‘Gita’ in your face by telling you I am reading it.

What’s your problem with her, anyway? Do you dispute that she talked to Stangl and lots of people who knew him, or what?

Also why can I not quote you. If you’re messing with your settings to do that, knock it off, it’s immature.

@Marley Rathbone I posted a pretty consise list of why I think the Holocaust is real for Lemmingwise. You can go find it a few pages back. I don’t feel that anyone has conclusively proven me wrong yet.

@JohnDoe can you confine your anti-Semitic hardon to pol? It’s kind of cringe ngl; you’re accusing Holocaust victims of malingering to what end? I’m worried you’re going to go off about the Dolchstosslegende next as if it was real.

Also an eyewitness account isn’t a hearsay one. I don’t know why you like to say dumb things like that.

 

[Aves]

@Chugger, I’ve got 2 questions.

1) Is there any documentation showing that nazis transported fuel to camps in the first place? Like, would there be some document saying “150000 kilos of coal transported to auswitchz” or something?

2) Does my above question actually matter? Like, if we were to hold revisionists to the same standards, we would need tons of documents showing how they built the train tracks and what not to transport them. Is there any documentation of this?

 

[Lemmingwise]

why is there no witness evidence of any of the supposedly 2-4 million deported Jews living somewhere?

Some of my thoughts:

1. When they disperse, they would no longer be of that volume and thus less noticable. So there may well be evidence of smaller groups that is never noticed as remarkable. So there would be evidence that escapes all notice (like for example, there being no documentary evidence of my grandfather being released from his camp, nor his path home. All I have to trust on is his word and recollection. The manner he describes would not leave documentary evidence. Of course there is witness evidence of him being alive afterwards, but then you have to follow his specific name)
2. Jews are on average much more sensitive to changing political climate than other groups. For example, with the rise of muslim extremism in france, jews left france in greater number than other groups, despite the danger being broadly at non=muslim society. I would think that there is a huge incentive for each of them to hide their identity as much as possible.
3. I'd have to dig it up, but 4 or 5 years ago there was a reddit post from a holocaust survivor, who had previously been in tv shows and radio who told the story of how his family member died there, I think it was his brother. People asked his name. Then found him alive with a google and they were re-united. How many people were deemed dead but weren't?
4. Similarly any that got on a boat, under true or false name, or perhaps even as stowaway, would not result in documentary evidence.
5. I got very interested in documenting my grandparents experience during the war and started to go there every day to ask questions and write down the answers. My grandmother asked at one point: "Wait, who's going to read this?" And I shared my intention to eventually publish it as a book and she asked me not to. Why? She didn't explain. I consider there to be two likely options. One, she was telling tall tales and didn't want them getting out. Two, she was afraid of her past coming to haunt her. The second is likelier, because of the genuine fear I saw in her eye, which was very unusual, because she was the toughest old bitch I've ever seen and generally couldn't give a fuck about what people thought of her.
6. The most likely place where there would be evidence is in a country that killed people for not clapping long enough. That send them to do "tenners" which usually ended in death. That redacted history. That forced people to write letters to their family abroad to tell them to come back because things are so great now. Where mothers lied to their daughters and told them they were indeed guilty of the crimes being alleged against them, so that their daughter would hate them on the one hand, but on the other hand perhaps be safer for not resisting the regime.
One the one hand one could argue that there would be evidence after the fall of the soviet union, but again, I don't believe these habits die easily.

But these are just some of my speculations why there is a lack of witness evidence and why I don't put much faith in it as argument. There are 2 more. I don't know if the number 2-4 million is accurate, so I don't know if it would need 2-4 million living elsewhere. I know that any that moved to either america or israel are unlikely to be reported accurately, because there is a political and financial and security incentive to not be open about this, not unlike my grandmother rather kept things from records.

And finally, I don't know, it might well be that if it was indeed 2-4 million that all of them are dead. I am generally quite agnostic on the topic, despite how it may seem. Though considering the illegality of questioning it started before the fall of the ussr, and the nature of the ussr as a country before it had fallen, there was never a time where there was open inquiry possible on each of the locations necessary to make sure assessments.

I do know that is highly suspicious that there are holes in the official story and when these are discovered that they are not corrected in the public record with an apology, like the skin lampshades, like the false claims at the holocaust museum that david cole exposed, like the refusal in this thread to admit the holes in the fuel/cremation techniques of the official story. I think it is very likely that any official story has some mistakes, but some of these mistakes are very significant. And if they're not owned up to when discovered, then they weren't mistakes, they were lies. And if they were lies, the same people pushing the lies are probably lying about other things as well. These are very simple and logical deductions that few people would disagree with. Except of course on this topic, because it takes quite some time to dismantle the propaganda.

 

[Aves]

Its completely irrelevant to me. Post some pictures of the magic cremators.


Oh oh I'm so sorry, let me see, here's my response to your posting of a link purporting to be the memo written some guy's roomate's coworker's former dentist's cousin's ex-wife's brother dictated to his Soviet interrogators. Its immaterial and without value. Try again.

I mean, there are picture online. You can go to any search engine and look up “nazi crematories” and get anything you want.

Also, the information Chugger gave is a lot more convincing than your “roommates coworkers” rant.

 

[Bonesjones]

I mean, there are picture online. You can go to any search engine and look up “nazi crematories” and get anything you want.

Also, the information Chugger gave is a lot more convincing than your “roommates coworkers” rant.

Yes there are pictures, but what are the pictures of? When you remove all the labeling and suggestion about what you are looking at, is it what you are told or is it what you see? Do those pictures suggest something else?

You can look at the air photos of Auschwitz and they've got big labels telling you what to think, but when you put it with the story it tells, it doesn't add up.

Why is the open pit fire that's supposedly a pyre for burning bodies on the other side of the camp where they said was an ash disposal site? Did they really want to cart tons of ash a significant distance away regularly? That suggests it's either not what they say or not something done regularly. Both point to the narrative being wrong.