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- Feb 6, 2018
Touche.Whereas all other time spent on the kiwifarms is massively productive
The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
- Thread starter RichardMongler
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2022
I'll follow your own example of ignoring actual history and not read any of your denialist bullshit.
You're free to post hard evidence of actual history any time you like
1. Who is salty, you? If someone says it happened because it happened and you show disdain that's just sanity.
2. I didn't ask for numbers, I told you that you don't have six million dead jews. And despite your posting numbers, you still don't have 6 million dead. Or even 4.4 million dead.
3. The YouTube link doesn't work, what does it show?
4. I based that on the actual documents of the SS regarding conduct and the records of treatment in the camps. From original source documents published in authoritative work. The source I gave gives alot more.
5. British airmen were not on land in large numbers. They were infrequently captured. This rejoinder is silly.
6. Like the Trawniki troops at the AR camps? Literally paid soldiers, as were Poles not in detention at Auschwitz working as private contractors. All Slavs.
7. There are certainly alot of second hand or inconsistent stories by interested parties. That's about it. There exists no mountain of hard evidence. The actual hard evidence showed that the camps operated normally.
- Joined
- May 6, 2022
Plot twist: So do you. Why you bother dying on a Nazi hill instead eludes me.
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- Apr 9, 2022
I just did. It showed that the nazis were literally under strict orders not to lay a finger on Jews. With sources too. You're response was, to paraphrase, " but muh mountains of evidence ".
On a related matter, a better way to consider Jewish losses is total global Jewish numbers;
The most reliable numbers are those post war ie 11.5 mil in 1948 as per Jews own stats. Then 11.8 in 1955, 12.63 in 1970, 12.84 in 1980 etc. Roughly growing 0.3% p.a.
The world population in general growth rate is 1.8%. So it's only a sixth of that.
Going way back to the late 19th century we have Israeli estimates of 6 to 7 mil and a prewar figure of 17 to 18 mil.
Which is interesting, because that population change over that time requires a population growth rate of 1.4 % p.a. that is double the world average growth rate of 0.8% of the period and five times the growth rate post war during which time the Jews were claimed by their own outlets to be in a terrible state of existence.
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Lol I don't talk to a guy whose worldview is so skewed it has given him brain damage (the 'trilllions' saga) and the best reason you seem to have for me is I'm some "random autist". You did not explain what you meant by me coming here to "practice my pilpul" . nonsensical
Anyway I'm just trying to save people from unproductive conversation. That's suggestion and my opinion, which like you I am entitled to . mrolonzo comes from this board https://rodoh.info/forum/ , where he has racked up probably thousands of posts. It's a truly horrible board, very repetitive with little to no evidence being posted or discussed
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- Apr 9, 2022
1. You were offered productive conversation at codoh. You spurned that.
2. You're offered the same at rodoh. Here now you spurn that.
3. You didn't like me saying trillions, so I reduced my claim to aid conversation. You spurned that.
4. You wanted my best positive evidence that no holocaust occurred. It was provided. You then spurned further conversation. On the matter.
Chugger. What exactly do you want from us?
We could even have unrelated conversations about what got us both into these subjects or other tangential matters. Im game. After all, I combat exterminationist rhetoric but we don't have to be enemies. But you seem you be implying that productive conversation can only occur where one fundamentally agrees with the holocaust narrative. Is that it?
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- Jan 12, 2022
He just wants to waste your time. These "Debates" are pointless cause both sides end up just saying that the other side isn't listening because they don't care, they only want your side to the story to ridicule it as they consider it "beneath them"
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- Apr 9, 2022
Look you're trying to be reasonable I get it. I get the both sides do it thing as an easy cop out.
But in fact revisionists have always been willing to discuss and debate anything and have never just said "you don't get it.... im not talking to you". This pattern goes way back and includes even when revisionists are digging up the latest research.
The reason is, anyone committed to holocaust research has to avoid engagement with us, because even though we know just as much and probably more about the holocaust, our balanced and extremely well informed conclusions may infect them or anyone who is connected with them. There's no defence against that except one, complete denial of our legitimacy and refusal to engage with us.
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- Feb 6, 2018
Autism, autism never changes.
And yet a very rough approximation of over 4.5 million is clearly more than whatever figure you fap to. In any case, I never explicitly said 6 million was gospel, and your fixation on it just proves my original point.
It shows a video taken by a German soldier of the liquidation of Jews by Einsatzkommando in Liepaja. here are some photos, but feel free to find the video:
and here are some photos taken by the Germans from other liquidations:
Lol, if you think over 100,000 US pows alone is a small number, and no, it's not silly. If the mass starvation was due to shortages and not intentional starvation, you'd expect it to be more evenly spread among all pow groups. the fact that it's way more prevalent among groups labeled inferior is indicative of intent.
Uh, no. I'm talking about zwangsarbeiter, actual laborers shipped in from Ukraine and Poland to work in German factories or menial jobs for little to no pay, like the ones Albert Speer relied on for munitions production.
Anyways, I'm done before I become infected with your spergery. Have fun with your autism.
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- Jan 12, 2022
I really don't get why they avoid you guys, cause all the evidence stacks in their favor doesn't? We have the "chambers", Zyklon B lying around the camps (Despite there being a stronger gas they could have used) eye witness testimony from people who were in the camps and confessions from high ranking members of the party and SS confirming what happened. Why would they need to avoid you?
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- Feb 2, 2019
Does this link work for you?
It's 1 minute 20. You see maybe 3-6 people being shot in what is ostensibly latvia.
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- Apr 9, 2022
1. Right and what does this have to with the nazis?
Certainly the nazis executed partisans, as within the laws of war.
Moreover, you're supposed to be aiming at some nearly 2mil. This is a few hundred innocents killed by local police units.
The current thinking is that as the Soviets were beaten back these may have been reprisals against Jews due to Jewish involvement in communist takeovers and subsequent massacres of townspeople.
2. Uh no. You would definitely not expect starvation to be spread around evenly as groups of POWs were captured in different areas at different times.
3. Ah yes, brought in for little or no pay. Which was it? Why would le ebil nazis pay anyone if they were so evil?
4. Accusing people of autism is cope for the absence of detail because of course autistic savants are capable of great detail without seeing the bigger picture. We see the bigger picture and have researched it, particularly how the various resistance groups spread their propaganda.
Yes. It's the best documented genocide in history after all. Except it's we who know about all the documents.
No but the link is fine. I'll try and catch up with it.
You have to consider how much propaganda work is involved with accusing the nazis when you don't have any bodies. This article by Udo Walendy is instructive;
Think about it. If you knew you didn't have bodies like the nazis individually dug up at Katyn what would you do? Well, you'd flood the world with photos and documents of unknown designation.
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Marley Rathbone
kiwifarms.net
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- Nov 22, 2021
You say that like it's impossible to find. Very well, I spent several hours figuring this shit out, so here you go:
Poland= 1931 Census= 3.1 Million Jews (source= Mały Rocznik Statystyczny 1939, Warszawa 1939, p. 24)
Poland= December 1946 Registration of Jews by Jewish Communities (highest number)= 222,967 (source= LUDNOŚĆ POLSKI W XX WIEKU, p. 297)
USSR= 1939 Census Data= 3.028 Million (source= https://www.prlib.ru/item/328812, p. 57)
USSR= 1959 Census Data= 2.268 Million (source= Fresh Light on the Soviet Population: Results of the 1959 Census, The World Today , May, 1960, Vol. 16, No. 5 (May, 1960), pp. 194-203, 202)
Hungary= 1930 Hungarian Census= 444, 567 (source= Az 1930. évi népszámlálás. 1. r. Demográfiai adatok községek és külterületi lakotthelyek szerint– Magyar Királyi Központi Statisztikai Hivatal (közread.), Kovács Alajos (előszó), Mozolovszky Sándor (bev.) – Magyar statisztikai közlemények. Ú. S. 83. köt. – Budapest, 1932. – XXII, 32, 429 p, Table 14)
Hungary= 1949 Hungarian Census= 137, 545 Jews (source= International Population Statistics Reports: The Population of Hungary (as of Jan. 1, 195, p. 77)
Romania= 1930 Census= 451,892 (EDIT= The number of Romanian Jews pre-war is subject to some high variability. The 1941 Census conducted by the Antonescu regime states that the number of Jews counted under the 1930 Census was 728,115. Source= Recensamatul din 1941, Bucuresti, 1941, p. 101)
Romania= 1956 Census= 146,264 (source= Population figures in Romania from 1930-2002, https://insse.ro/cms/files/RPL2002INS/vol4/tabele/t1.pdf)
Germany= Jewish population in 1939= approx. 222,000 (down from over 500,000 in 1933) (source= E. Rosenthal, Trends of the Jewish Population in Germany, 1910-39, Jewish Social Studies , Jul., 1944, Vol. 6, No. 3 (Jul., 1944), pp. 233-274, 236)
Germany= Est. 34,000 Jewish Population, c. 1950= (source= Jewish Telegraphic Agency Daily Bulletin, May 16, 1952, http://pdfs.jta.org/1952/1952-05-16_096.pdf)
This isn't even including the censuses for Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, Latvia, Austria, Greece, etc., but you get the point. Now, this is going to take a leap of faith for some of you to just trust numbers, but I am going to juxtapose this with Official Israeli Immigration Records, which include countries of origin. Now, looking solely to the countries I just mentioned, we have the following figures from 1948-1960: (https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/publications/doclib/2018/4. shnatonimmigration/st04_04.pdf)
Poland= (EDIT= 146,032)
USSR= 21,906
Hungary= 24,143
Romania= 150,412
Germany= 9,596
Adding the approximately 70,000 Jews who attempted to enter Israel between 1945-1948 plus the 65,000 who took advantage of the British quotas to enter Mandatory Palestine (Arieh J. Kochavi, The Struggle against Jewish Immigration to Palestine, Middle Eastern Studies , Jul., 1998, Vol. 34, No. 3 (Jul., 199
Now, subtracting those changes in population from those selected countries alone and subtracting that 491,469 number I gave you earlier, you get a loss of 4,435,683 lives. This is still just an approximation because it doesn't take into account natural growth after the censuses were taken but before the war, and births post-war, so the numbers are probably even higher. The loss of six million lives is entirely possible, even if you autists choose not to believe it.
I didn't post any of the pdfs because these documents total thousands of pages, but if anyone's interested in actually seeing the sources I used, message me. (I'm only giving you the link to the 1939 USSR Census data bc it's impossible to download from their archives, so don't ask).
We have a starting point to agree on. You say the possible number is nowhere near six million, I agree. We both agree it would be way less. That established, let's look at the total lack of evidence for gas chambers and mass graves of your supposed 4.5 million killed.
you reduced your claim by a factor of 100,00 just for me? this is how history works? you deserve a spot in this thread, if you're not already there under a different name https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=529368#p529368
mrolonzo can look at a speech like this and come away convinced it is evidence of the Nazis' fairness, civility and unracist attitude, particularly towards Eastern Europeans
No point in talking to such a person, even to dunk on them, probably cuz they already do it to themselves
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- Feb 2, 2019
I always like when people take some time to dive into stats and details on subjects in general. And I notice people barely engaged with this post until this point.
Considering the brunt of population loss in your post comes from these two, poland and ussr, I've isolated them for analysis.
I have a couple of follow up questions:
1. Why do you depend on a scientific census for poland in before the war, but what seems to be a jewish self-report after the war?
2. How did the latter gather their data?
3. Why did you use the strange USSR second date 1959? (If I recall correctly that is right at the moment they started to make movement out of the ussr almost impossible?) And which would have had considerable births as well as millions of gulag deaths confounding the results? Why not 1946 or something close to that in any case?
4. Do you agree that the USSR engaged in severe information manipulation and that it is hard to put trust into any numbers put forward during the time?
I've got some follow up questions probably, but I'd like to know your thoughts regarding these.
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- Joined
- Apr 9, 2022
1. Chugger, what exactly is your problem? Ive said trillions meaning in today's terms then reduced that claim in your favour, down some 100,000x . Was that too much? Too little ? What?
2. Look, it's fine. If you refuse to talk to me any further that's your right. You clearly view yourself as superior in intellect and knowledge. Which again, is fine. Hopefully you can educate me with your insights.
3. I'll just be here to give anyone who wants it, the revisionist perspective. And im already on skeptic forum. The level of insult dodging and sheer cope there is clear, plus of course, they claim to be skeptics, and skeptic magazine (related publication) is run by one Micheal Shermer.
This man is another holocaust promoter who, when debating Mark Weber in the 90s, admitted that the holocaust evidence is not some great mountain, but is in fact a collection of points that they only assume to equal mass murder in the aggregate
I.e. they admit there exists no direct evidence of the holocaust.
4. Exterminationists like Chugger often quote speeches, but one must ask, are they giving the full speech properly translated?
Revisionism will always seek to give you the full information, in original or best translated format. And when true errors are discovered by their critics, new editions are published with corrections. No wonder the world publishing industry doesn't want to help!
From the introduction;
" In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of Ausrottung would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, Judenevakuierung, or evacuation of the Jews, not extermination."
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You should probably consider
1) Why it is you overcalculated a historical fact by a probable factor of 100,000
2) why you repeatedly asserted such an overcalculated figure was true
3) why you are treating the question of this fact as a negotiation
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- Apr 9, 2022
Ok, calm down;
You should probably consider;
1. To what extent Trillions in today's terms or in 1944 terms is accurate and what number would be more accurate.
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