The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Grand Wizard Wakka]

Auschwitz is my favorite amusement park.

Is your favorite ride the Holocoaster?

 

[TheRetardKing]

Is your favorite ride the Holocoaster?

My favorite is Gasly Halls.

 

[Solid Snek]

So in this single grave, assuming the ash was pure, you could fit 675*600 worth of bodies, or ashes of 400,000 people, that is roughly the estimated death total at Belzec

This grave is just one of many, so we're dealing with a tremendous amount of ash.

Is that calculation supported by an expert statement anywhere? It seems unlikely that one grave would contain the entirety of the claimed total of casualties at Belzec; if your (would be it be fair to say, amateur?) estimate of the bodies in this one grave was correct and accepted by the investigators, then surely, the campwide death toll they claim would, by necessity, have increased several times over.

I'm not disputing your maths - I did a back-of-envelope calculation yesterday, using that very same grave, and arrived at a similar number - but I am not an expert, and given the preposterous nature of claiming one grave contained every body at the camp, then in the absence of any affirmations by the actual experts, I must assume my (our?) calculation is in error.

(also, notice that the author does not assert the grave 5 is filled with pure crematory remains - The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents clearly indicates it was not pure crematory remains, and from the rest of the text, it may even be the case that the crematory remains in that particular grave were mixed with non-crematory remains as well. Again, without the actual studies, or the actual expert's findings in detail, we amateurs have no way of knowing how many corpses might be in this grave)

The impetus to destroy bodies for the purpose of making them impossible to count is quite obvious (there is no other way to make them uncountable), but is also indicated in Nazi testimony. Rudolf Hoess:

Well, again, this is begging the question and assuming facts not in evidence. You assume that the purpose for cremating the bodies is to make them impossible to count, but that needn't be the assumption.

As for the order from Hoess, we'd have to look at the text of the order itself (is that available?). From what was written,

In addition the ashes were to be disposed of in such a way that it would be impossible at some future time to calculate the number of corpses burned. ​

​

it is not clear whether the order stated that the ashes were to be disposed of in such a way that it would be impossible to calculate the number of corpses burned, or whether the author of the article asserts that one consequence of the order's instructions was that it would be impossible to calculate the number of corpses burned. That would make a significant difference; the first would be a smoking gun, while the second would be more begging the question and assuming facts.

 

[Shroom King]

"The Germans kept very good records of everyone they arrested. How can they account for everyone missing after the war? Checkmate, NAZIS!!1!!!"

Um, you know records can be forged, right? Especially in mid-40's Germany when SHTF and no one noticed some dude walking off with a briefcase full of papers.

 

[cybertoaster]

Nah it happened, but it was likely just another genocide on a similar level to the armenian one so we're talking a million or two, maybe three, but not six

Does not invalidate that it was a genocide tho, and that many jews who hadnt done shit besides existing got fucked while the big ones like the rothschilds which the nazis allowed to leave got away, and that defeats the purpose of breaking the power of the jewish elite like they wanted

Most of the denial and exageration of the holocaust comes from neo-nazis and arabs trying to erode the political power from the jews, and on the other side the jews keep pushing their version as justification for the apartheid of israel. And I dont call it apartheid as a meme but because israel was one of the last allies of apartheid south africa because they were more or less in the same boat and zionist jews constantly mention current south africa as an example of what would happen if their apartheid ended.

 

[Chugger]

Is that calculation supported by an expert statement anywhere? It seems unlikely that one grave would contain the entirety of the claimed total of casualties at Belzec; if your (would be it be fair to say, amateur?) estimate of the bodies in this one grave was correct and accepted by the investigators, then surely, the campwide death toll they claim would, by necessity, have increased several times over.

I'm not disputing your maths - I did a back-of-envelope calculation yesterday, using that very same grave, and arrived at a similar number - but I am not an expert, and given the preposterous nature of claiming one grave contained every body at the camp, then in the absence of any affirmations by the actual experts, I must assume my (our?) calculation is in error.

(also, notice that the author does not assert the grave 5 is filled with pure crematory remains - The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents clearly indicates it was not pure crematory remains, and from the rest of the text, it may even be the case that the crematory remains in that particular grave were mixed with non-crematory remains as well. Again, without the actual studies, or the actual expert's findings in detail, we amateurs have no way of knowing how many corpses might be in this grave)

Yes clearly the graves were not pure ash, the 1945 report specifies that the ash was mixed with sand:

​

"The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shin bones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones."​

​

And the "expert opinion" from 1945 may also be interesting

On grounds of the postmortem examination made I find that the aforementioned bones and soft tissue parts as well as the ash are predominantly of human origin. A very small part comes from wood. Judging by the huge amount of ash and bones I assert that the same must be from a very large quantity of human bodies. The small soft tissue parts of human bodies that are in the ash and not completely carbonized issue a smell that is caused by the decomposition process of the remains of human soft tissue parts. This smell is also caused by the fact that the soil is soaked by the masses of decomposing human corpses that were burned after having been extracted from the soil. Considering the sandy soil in which the human corpses were burned and the state of decomposition of the body parts found, one has to assume that these corpses were presumably buried about 3 years ago. The human body parts not carbonized and the huge amount of hair proves that some corpses were buried after the time when the corpse burning in the extermination camp was stopped, eventually they may also be corpses that were not extracted from the mass grave during cremation. Due to the fact that the skull bones show no traces of shots, it must be assumed that these people did not die from shooting.​

Signature: Dr. Mieczyslaw Pietraszkiewicz​

​

It might be possible to estimate ash quantity if separated from the rest somehow, but this would have to be done for every layer because consistency could greatly vary. So they would have to extract most of the ash in the camp. In 1945 Holocaust denial did not exist and nowadays it is a fringe movement, so there is no need to do something like this.

But most importantly, the findings at this camp, in 1945 and the 1990s, corroborate the witness testimony that large graves were dug to house bodies, then those bodies were extracted and destroyed with bits dumped back into graves. If even just 10% of the crematory contents are ash, this would infer mass murder based on the quantities Kola describes. This also refutes revisionist hypothesis that Belzec was a transit camps where only a few thousand were buried (something not supported by any witness testimony or documents etc )

​

 

[Rapechu]

Please tell me how you think Germany had the coal supply and crematoria capacity to incinerate 20 million people to fine ash without leaving any sort of trace of remains. The logistics are absolutely absurd. If you crunch the numbers, Germany didn't even supply enough coal to Auschwitz to cremate 100,000 people between 1942 and 1943, the official records which we have obtained only realistically show enough coal deliveries to meet the facility's basic needs if you extrapolate from existing data to cover the gaps.

Secondly, Hitler literally built a retirement city for jews, called Thereisenstadt, with over 100,000 inmates. The camp was self-administrated by the jewish occupants. This flies in the face of the nonsense idea that "Nazis killed the jews who couldn't work and used the rest for labor". This is an entire freaking city.

Thirdly, there was no reason for Hitler to go with this stupid amusement park of death idea. Auschwitz had a swimming pool, a dentist office, a soccer team, an orchestra, a post office, etc. all of these were explicitly for the inmates' benefit. "Hurr durr it's too traumatic to just shoot someone and throw them in a ditch". Commies killed literally millions of people this way, often thousands at a time. Often they machinegunned entire families down too. It didn't seem to bother them. For that matter, the "gas van" idea (of a leaky van that kills its passengers with exhaust) has already proven to be an NKVD tactic from the 1920s.

Fourth, I already posted a letter where the British government is openly stating it intends to invent lies about the Germans on par with the "Mutilated Belgian babies" and "Crucified Canadians" (WW1 propaganda).

Fifth, all the propaganda about death camps, surprise surprise, comes from USSR-occupied territory. Are you really going to believe Joseph Stalin, the inspiration for Big Brother from 1984, on his historical claims? The USSR has already been caught red-handed trying to frame Germany for war crimes, such as the Katyn Massacre, which was committed by the soviets and blamed on the Germans, and it was only because documents were leaked during the fall of the USSR that the truth came to light. The USSR had aprox 50 years to propagandize in Polish schools that Germans were killing them (the so-called Generalplan Ost, that is already largely debunked).

So at this point, with both pro-Western and Soviet government exposed as liars, I will need some serious evidence to believe this nonsense.

 

[Chugger]

Please tell me how you think Germany had the coal supply and crematoria capacity to incinerate 20 million people to fine ash without leaving any sort of trace of remains. The logistics are absolutely absurd. If you crunch the numbers, Germany didn't even supply enough coal to Auschwitz to cremate 100,000 people between 1942 and 1943, the official records which we have obtained only realistically show enough coal deliveries to meet the facility's basic needs if you extrapolate from existing data to cover the gaps.

Secondly, Hitler literally built a retirement city for jews, called Thereisenstadt, with over 100,000 inmates. The camp was self-administrated by the jewish occupants. This flies in the face of the nonsense idea that "Nazis killed the jews who couldn't work and used the rest for labor". This is an entire freaking city.

Thirdly, there was no reason for Hitler to go with this stupid amusement park of death idea. Auschwitz had a swimming pool, a dentist office, a soccer team, an orchestra, a post office, etc. all of these were explicitly for the inmates' benefit. "Hurr durr it's too traumatic to just shoot someone and throw them in a ditch". Commies killed literally millions of people this way, often thousands at a time. Often they machinegunned entire families down too. It didn't seem to bother them. For that matter, the "gas van" idea (of a leaky van that kills its passengers with exhaust) has already proven to be an NKVD tactic from the 1920s.

Fourth, I already posted a letter where the British government is openly stating it intends to invent lies about the Germans on par with the "Mutilated Belgian babies" and "Crucified Canadians" (WW1 propaganda).

Fifth, all the propaganda about death camps, surprise surprise, comes from USSR-occupied territory. Are you really going to believe Joseph Stalin, the inspiration for Big Brother from 1984, on his historical claims? The USSR has already been caught red-handed trying to frame Germany for war crimes, such as the Katyn Massacre, which was committed by the soviets and blamed on the Germans, and it was only because documents were leaked during the fall of the USSR that the truth came to light. The USSR had aprox 50 years to propagandize in Polish schools that Germans were killing them (the so-called Generalplan Ost, that is already largely debunked).

So at this point, with both pro-Western and Soviet government exposed as liars, I will need some serious evidence to believe this nonsense.

#1 no one claims 20 million incinerated in crematoriums , or even 6 million, or even 1 million! The vast majority of Jews were burned thru open air cremation, and even at Auschwitz it seems likely that a large amount were burned outside. For this wood was used, as well as gasoline

#2 Thereisenstadt, was not set up in 'the east', where German documentation points to millions being sent. It housed max 50k who lived in terrible conditions, and was liquidated before the end of the war with most of its population being sent to Auschwitz. It was also referred to in German documentation as a "Propagandalager" and a "temporary collection camp (where the Jews are already heavily decimated)", and that its purpose was "to save face with the outside world." https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32645

#3 There were a lot of Jews who couldn't be used for labor who were eating up valuable resources while Germany was facing extinction in an attritional conflict against much more economically powerful enemies. They killed them for the same reason they euthanized their own citizens. Use of Gas Vans vans are well documented by the way: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.html . 'Amusement park of death' is your own strawman conception of what Auschwitz was like

#4 I already responded to the statement from 1944 here: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/page-45#post-10161958

explaining that by this time the Holocaust was nearly over, so there was nothing left to "invent". The only part yet unrealized was the Hungarian action, for which I provided documentary evidence that the most powerful and well informed people in Britain believed was genocidal.

#5 the death camps were in the east because that's where 90% of the Jews were. Plus it would have been dumb for them to put death camps in Germany when their own people had figured out their top secret t4 program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4#Opposition . Generalplan Ost (that is colonization of the USSR, Poland, + other territories) has definitely not been debunked, it was just never carried out cuz the German army got their shit handed to them after 41. I can provide you the documents if you like. I was just recently researching this

What kind of 'serious evidence' would it take for you to believe in the Holocaust?

Also if we keep up this discussion I would prefer if we could go over one point at a time. Your post was all over the place.

 

[Rapechu]

#1 no one claims 20 million incinerated in crematoriums , or even 6 million, or even 1 million! The vast majority of Jews were burned thru open air cremation, and even at Auschwitz it seems likely that a large amount were burned outside. For this wood was used, as well as gasoline

You are aware that wood is less efficient as a fuel source than coal, right? And that open air bonfires are less efficient than ovens at cremation? How many trees need to be cut down to cremate millions of people? How much gasoline was sent to Auschwitz? The answer holds the key to this whole thing.

#2 Thereisenstadt, was not set up in 'the east', where German documentation points to millions being sent. It housed max 50k who lived in terrible conditions, and was liquidated before the end of the war with most of its population being sent to Auschwitz. It was also referred to in German documentation as a "Propagandalager" and a "temporary collection camp (where the Jews are already heavily decimated)", and that its purpose was "to save face with the outside world." https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32645

Absolute lies. Thereisenstadt existed until 1945 when it was taken over by the Red Cross. It had 144000 inmates. Now I know that youbare arguing in bad faith.

#3 There were a lot of Jews who couldn't be used for labor who were eating up valuable resources while Germany was facing extinction in an attritional conflict against much more economically powerful enemies. They killed them for the same reason they euthanized their own citizens. Use of Gas Vans vans are well documented by the way: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.html . 'Amusement park of death' is your own strawman conception of what Auschwitz was like

The Germans never euthanized their own citizens. Unless you mean severely retarded people and comatose vegitatives who had to fail a doctor's examination to determine if they were incurable.

Testomonies that describe Auschwitz as having comfortable ammenities:

The "Holocaust" testimonies you DIDN'T hear!

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eF-vmsgHI&bpctr=1551786831

www.bitchute.com

So the "death camp" is more of a strawman than an "amusement park"

Gas vans: yes, well documented... first written about by Pjotr Grigorenko, a soviet dissenter. Like Katyn, an example of a soviet crime that had the sticker peeled off and a German one slapped on.

#4 I already responded to the statement from 1944 here: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/page-45#post-10161958

explaining that by this time the Holocaust was nearly over, so there was nothing left to "invent".

I already addressed this, that you need to reread the letter because you said nothing to debunk it. The letter literally says, the British government intents to create false war crime allegations against Germany ro cover up an impending massacre of Germans. If there is "nothing to invent" then why send this letter?

The only part yet unrealized was the Hungarian action, for which I provided documentary evidence that the most powerful and well informed people in Britain believed was genocidal.

The British government and soviets occupying Hungary were both proven untrustworthy sources. IE katyn massacre, IE the letter.

#5 the death camps were in the east because that's where 90% of the Jews were. Plus it would have been dumb for them to put death camps in Germany when their own people had figured out their top secret t4 program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4#Opposition .

Jesis Christ. Aktion T4 was a euthenasia of incurably retarded people and vegitatives, it was conducted by medical doctors. It was not a secret either, it was a party platform. Other countries have or had had similar euthenasia programs. Have you ever heard of "pulling the plug"? The only difference was that the Germans felt it was more humane to kill them than to starve them to death by removing the feeding tube. (Though some doctors advocated that method).

Generalplan Ost (that is colonization of the USSR, Poland, + other territories) has definitely not been debunked, it was just never carried out cuz the German army got their shit handed to them after 41. I can provide you the documents if you like. I was just recently researching this

Please explain to me how the SS-Galician and the RONA and other Ost-Legionnaires were genociding themselves. I would like to hear the mental leaps of logic. Germans had plans to settle East Europe to farm undeveloped land, it was not a genocide.

What kind of 'serious evidence' would it take for you to believe in the Holocaust?

Investigations by neutral, third parties producing physical evidence.

Also if we keep up this discussion I would prefer if we could go over one point at a time. Your post was all over the place.

Okay, I went over things one point at a time.

 

[Chugger]

I meant focus on one or two points at a time, which will allow for more in depth discussion.

You are aware that wood is less efficient as a fuel source than coal, right? And that open air bonfires are less efficient than ovens at cremation? How many trees need to be cut down to cremate millions of people? How much gasoline was sent to Auschwitz? The answer holds the key to this whole thing.

lol you wonder about gasoline consumption and invoices at Auschwitz, but would never question the total lack of any such documentation for the eastern camps the Jews were supposedly sent to. Here's David Cole:

Where are records of the shipment of supplies to Unicornville? Where are the records of the deployment of guards? Internal memos and coded transmissions about security concerns or black market trading (which we have for the camps, the General Government ghettoes, and the Ostland ghettoes)?​

​

See, wherever Jews were kept alive, the Nazis kept records. Wherever Jews were kept alive, things like food, medicine, guards, security concerns, and black marketeering concerns were recorded. And no single camp would have had the enormous population of Unicornville.​

"Unicornville and the Holocaust Deniers" (A Reply by David Cole)

Remember a few weeks ago when I posted a reprint of my review of David Cole's Republican Party Animal -- the review that originally ran in Inconvenient History? Remember where, in my introductory remarks, I expressed mild surprise that David...

hooverhog.typepad.com

But back to your skepticism regarding the apparently prohibitive cost of a program of mass corpse destruction, isn't it true that tens of millions of cattle (who have much higher body mass than Polish Jews even stripped of meat) are burnt and destroyed every year, without bankrupting the world or having all the forests cut down?

Absolute lies. Thereisenstadt existed until 1945 when it was taken over by the Red Cross. It had 144000 inmates. Now I know that youbare arguing in bad faith.

I cross referenced your 144,000 number, here's where it comes from:

Of the approximately 144,000 Jews sent to Theresienstadt, some 33,000—almost 1 in 4—died there, and about 88,000 were deported to Auschwitz and other death camps. By the war’s end, only 19,000 were alive. The Germans transferred control of the camp to the Red Cross on May 3, 1945, and Soviet troops liberated it five days later.​

Theresienstadt | concentration camp, Czech Republic

Theresienstadt, town in northern Bohemia (now in the Czech Republic), founded in 1780 and used from 1941 to 1945 by Nazi Germany as a walled ghetto, or concentration camp, and as a transit camp for western Jews en route to Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the

www.britannica.com

The documentary evidence is clear that most inmates were deported to Auschwitz at the end of the war, leaving only 11,000 in November. The number later increased due to it being a destination for prisoners from camps evacuated in advance of the Red Army. Some resettlement camp.

I should also repost this link, very interesting documents here: https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32645

I would also recommend people check out the drawings of Bedřich Fritta for a more poetic depiction of life at a 'Propagandalager'

https://www.google.com/search?q=theresienstadt+Bedřich+Fritta&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS902US902&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid1er_v8bzAhVwQt8KHfHJBLsQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1280&bih=620&dpr=2#imgrc=JbsriXFRf0MBIM

 

[Rapechu]

I meant focus on one or two points at a time, which will allow for more in depth discussion.



lol you wonder about gasoline consumption and invoices at Auschwitz, but would never question the total lack of any such documentation for the eastern camps the Jews were supposedly sent to. Here's David Cole:

Where are records of the shipment of supplies to Unicornville? Where are the records of the deployment of guards? Internal memos and coded transmissions about security concerns or black market trading (which we have for the camps, the General Government ghettoes, and the Ostland ghettoes)?​

​

See, wherever Jews were kept alive, the Nazis kept records. Wherever Jews were kept alive, things like food, medicine, guards, security concerns, and black marketeering concerns were recorded. And no single camp would have had the enormous population of Unicornville.​

"Unicornville and the Holocaust Deniers" (A Reply by David Cole)

Remember a few weeks ago when I posted a reprint of my review of David Cole's Republican Party Animal -- the review that originally ran in Inconvenient History? Remember where, in my introductory remarks, I expressed mild surprise that David...

hooverhog.typepad.com

You mean the same David Cole that did a documentary about how the holocaust didn't happen? You mean the same David Cole (himself a jew) that asserted that he had been threatened by jewish thugs from the ADL and JDL and extorted for thousands of dollars because of his historical research (and having paid it to them on receiving these threats and genuinely fearing for his life)? You mean the same one that was forced to issue recantations of his research and later change his name to Stein and go into hiding as a result of this harassment? You mean the same one that ultimately changed his name back to Cole and reinstated his initial beliefs that the holocaust never happened and publicly explained the context and intimidation tactics behind his false retraction?

Amazing that you would quote him.

But back to your skepticism regarding the apparently prohibitive cost of a program of mass bodily destruction, isn't it true that hundreds of millions of cattle (who have much higher body mass than Polish Jews even stripped of meat) are cremated every year, without bankrupting the world or having all the forests cut down?

Nice deflection. Allow me to prove to you that my demands are reasonable by spoonfeeding you some numbers

• From Feb 16 1942-Oct 1943, 497 tons of fuel were delivered to Auschwitz (this includes gasoline and coke coal)
• The furnaces at Auschwitz were identical to the ones at the Gusen Camp in Austria. There are documents that these are capable of cremating one corpse an hour, requiring a minimum of 25kg of coke per hour

So tell me how many bodies could be burnt in crematoria if you extrapolate the data?

• To cremate one human body with wood requires 500kg of wood.

This is half the weight of an adult tree. How many trees were cut down near Auschwitz? How many deliveries of logs were made by train to Auschwitz?

Sorry, but it's all bunk.

I searched cross referenced your 144,000 number, here's where it comes from:

Of the approximately 144,000 Jews sent to Theresienstadt, some 33,000—almost 1 in 4—died there, and about 88,000 were deported to Auschwitz and other death camps. By the war’s end, only 19,000 were alive. The Germans transferred control of the camp to the Red Cross on May 3, 1945, and Soviet troops liberated it five days later.​

Theresienstadt | concentration camp, Czech Republic

Theresienstadt, town in northern Bohemia (now in the Czech Republic), founded in 1780 and used from 1941 to 1945 by Nazi Germany as a walled ghetto, or concentration camp, and as a transit camp for western Jews en route to Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the

www.britannica.com

The documentary evidence is clear that most inmates were deported to Auschwitz at the end of the war, leaving only 11,000 in November. The number later increased due to it being a destination for prisoners from camps evacuated in advance of the Red Army. Some resettlement camp.

They died mainly of malnutrition and disease, which might have something to do with a small thing called World War Two, which just so happened to be going on at the same time, where allies were bombing roads and train depots carrying medicine and food. Casualties in wars can vary from 50-90% civilian, even without any targetted genocides. Also, you attack the Germans for the bad conditions in the camp, and then attack the Germans for transferring the prisoners to a different camp (by calling the other camp a death camp). So what are the Germans supposed to do? Just leave them in a camp where the conditions deteriorated to the point people are dying?

​

I should also repost this link, very interesting documents here: https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32645

I would also recommend people check out the drawings of Bedřich Fritta for a more poetic depiction of life at a 'Propagandalager'

https://www.google.com/search?q=theresienstadt+Bedřich+Fritta&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS902US902&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid1er_v8bzAhVwQt8KHfHJBLsQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1280&bih=620&dpr=2#imgrc=JbsriXFRf0MBIM

What does this have to do with anything? Jews were being decimated? Yes, there is a war going on. It's a propaganda camp? I hope you realize that Germans didn't consider "propaganda" to mean lies, that is a purely western connotation. Propaganda merely meant "public information". Goebbels was known publicly as the reich minister of public enlightenment and propaganda. If a camp is designated as a propaganda camp then it merely means that it is earmarked as one of exceptional quality that they intended to use as an example to the public. The fact that it declined so much in face of this seems to hint that it was never intended to get so bad. It was intended as a beautiful place with gardens and cultural events, and there are records of the place receiving such care, but if soviet and british bombing campaigns led to reduced living standards, then it can't be blamed on the Germans. For that matter, the German people were limited to a meat ration of 250 grams per week. Food consumption fell by 25% immediately after the start of the war due to British blockades. Starvation wasn't a situation particular to camp inmates.

And what do drawings have to do with anything? Here's some other drawings

drawings of soviet gulag - Google Search

Or better yet, here's a photo of soviet brutality

torture of captain rosinsky - Google Search

These are the people you're trusting to give you accurate information on German intentions, as these camps were occupied by them and they are the ones who provided the death tolls.

By the way, in western-occupied Germany, German POWs were given 1200 calories a day (average caloric needs for good health is 2600 calories a day). This was part of a deliberate starvation campaign.

 

[Lemmingwise]

isn't it true that tens of millions of cattle (who have much higher body mass than Polish Jews even stripped of meat) are burnt and destroyed every year, without bankrupting

Is the world currently experiencing such a fuel shortage that it's hard to keep trucks moving, like in nazi germany during the 2nd world war?

The vast majority of Jews were burned thru open air cremation, and even at Auschwitz it seems likely that a large amount were burned outside. For this wood was used, as well as gasoline

This really is completely unfeasible. Using gasoline for this during a fuel shortage is so completely rediculous. And open air cremation for "the most industrial approach to genocide" is rediculous to anyone who looks into the numbers and necessities and possible alternatives of it.

 

[Chugger]

You mean the same David Cole that did a documentary about how the holocaust didn't happen? You mean the same David Cole (himself a jew) that asserted that he had been threatened by jewish thugs from the ADL and JDL and extorted for thousands of dollars because of his historical research (and having paid it to them on receiving these threats and genuinely fearing for his life)? You mean the same one that was forced to issue recantations of his research and later change his name to Stein and go into hiding as a result of this harassment? You mean the same one that ultimately changed his name back to Cole and reinstated his initial beliefs that the holocaust never happened and publicly explained the context and intimidation tactics behind his false retraction?

Amazing that you would quote him.

Did you read the article?

. How many trees were cut down near Auschwitz? How many deliveries of logs were made by train to Auschwitz?

Sorry, but it's all bunk.

You hear about the time the Nazis would convert 30 tons of potatoes to fuel a single v-2 launch? in late war with the country in the midst of a food crisis. Makes you wonder if the whole rocket program ever really existed.

There are some anti-revisionists who play this game of corpse math, but its not my thing, even when I was a bit questioning on the holocaust. Now that I can see how bad revisionists are when it comes to documents (my greatest interest), that gives me no faith in their math or science skills.

Also, you attack the Germans for the bad conditions in the camp, and then attack the Germans for transferring the prisoners to a different camp (by calling the other camp a death camp). So what are the Germans supposed to do? Just leave them in a camp where the conditions deteriorated to the point people are dying?

I wasn't really attacking them, just specifying that the only camp you can point to as being a resettlement camp (and you say it was the exemplar) was clearly a short term proposition with most inmates dying or being transferred elsewhere. How's that?

If a camp is designated as a propaganda camp then it merely means that it is earmarked as one of exceptional quality that they intended to use as an example to the public. The fact that it declined so much in face of this seems to hint that it was never intended to get so bad.

From Wikipedia: "101,761 prisoners arrived at Theresienstadt in 1942,[23] causing the population to peak, on 18 September 1942, at 58,491.[16] The death rate also peaked that month with 3,941 deaths.[24] "

So less than a year after the camp opened, and around the time of the Great Eastward Migration, more than 5% of its population was dying every month . This was a model camp apparently, that they were really trying to make seem like a good place, so if we 'extrapolate' those figures to a total detained Jewish population of 5 million, after 3 years of such 'decimation' that population would be reduced to around 800,00.

Yes, you are right. Germany was in the midst of a food crisis at the time thanks to attritional war being waged against them and the strain of occupying a good portion of the largest country on Earth.

As part of this occupation, the minister of agriculture predicted the deaths of tens of millions of Slavs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.​

​

2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation​

It is also unquestioned that millions of Soviet POWs starved to death in the first year of the war. This is what Himmler had to say about that

At the time, we did not value the mass of humanity as we value it today: as raw material, as labor. The fact that prisoners died of exhaustion and hunger in tens and hundreds of thousands is by no means regrettable from the standpoint of lost generations but is deplorable now for reasons of lost labor.​

So obviously harsh wartime conditions (that may have been caused by the Soviets or Britain, but wasn't it really the Jews?) provided the necessary impetus for Germans to allow vast populations under their control to starve to death. The POWs thing is an interesting case though, cause these people were young and theoretically strong and capable of work, at least much stronger than the average Jews said to be gassed in Reinhard camps or Auschwitz (these were primarily Old or Children or the sick) . And I have to return to this again, the POWs were much more capable of work, but also had no responsibility for the carnage Germany was facing.

The Jews on the other hand?

So it's quite obvious (and expressed in German documents) that they thought it was better to kill these people and be done with it than let them slowly starve, and perhaps even more humane

Two examples off the top of my head

Hoppner to Eichmann:

"A danger persists this winter that not all of the Jews (of the Warthegau) can be fed. It should be seriously considered if the most humane solution is not to finish off those Jews incapable of work by some quick working means. In any case, this would be more pleasant than letting them starve to death."​

From a health conference

At another conference, this time of health officials, held at the spa resort town of Bad Krynica, a medical expert opined that the control of typhus was impossible when “without doubt the Jewish population simply broke out of the ghettos in which there was nothing to eat”, recommending that there be an increased food supply for the ghettos to solve the problem. Dr. Jost Walbaum, head of the public health department of the GG administration, replied:​

​

"You are completely right. Naturally it would be the best and simplest to give the people sufficient provisioning possibilities, but that cannot be done. That is connected to the food situation and the war situation in general. Thus shooting will be employed when one comes across a Jew outside the ghetto without permission. One must, I can say it quite openly in this circle, be clear about it. There are only two ways. We sentence the Jews in the ghetto to death by hunger or we shoot them. Even if the end result is the same, the latter is more intimidating. We cannot do otherwise, even if we want to. We have one and only one responsibility, that the German people are not infected and endangered by these parasites. For that any means must be right."​

​

According to the extant protocol of the meeting, Walbaum’s words provoked “applause, clapping”​

Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. Chapter 3: Aktion Reinhard and the Holocaust in Poland (3). Extermination and Labour.

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

Yet you believe the Germans happily interned millions of Jews in the East, an area much more difficult to supply due to the war situation, and most of them lived through it? Unicornville.

The more you learn about history, things just make less sense huh

Is the world currently experiencing such a fuel shortage that it's hard to keep trucks moving, like in nazi germany during the 2nd world war?



This really is completely unfeasible. Using gasoline for this during a fuel shortage is so completely rediculous. And open air cremation for "the most industrial approach to genocide" is rediculous to anyone who looks into the numbers and necessities and possible alternatives of it.

I don't really get into this holocaust math stuff,

On "Revisionist" error nitpicking (3)

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

There are people who say the requirements are low, and there are people who say the requirements are high.

I do wonder what the costs and difficulty would be of supplying interned Jews w millions of pounds of food per week. In an active warzone no less. The food would of course have to procured, but then also transported to them. How much fuel would that consume? And all the other supplies these millions would need, like heat and water. Day in and day out, until the USSR's defeat at least. In 1942 Germany's drive to the south indicated they were in it for the long haul, and not expecting to win the war anytime soon.

Btw I responded to your post earlier, but couldn't figure out how to quote it, so I'm not sure if you saw.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I don't really get into this holocaust math stuff,

On "Revisionist" error nitpicking (3)

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

There are people who say the requirements are low, and there are people who say the requirements are high.

I do wonder what the costs and difficulty would be of supplying interned Jews w millions of pounds of food per week. In an active warzone no less. The food would of course have to procured, but then also transported to them. How much fuel would that consume?

Yes, in the last stretches of war, dutch civilians were starving too, it was called the hungerwinter. People resorted to eating bark, turnips, everytype of plant and root. A lot of trees and wood in public areas in cities had been stripped for wood fuel to stay warm.

After the war thousands of kids were shipped to sweden and denmark to host families for a couple of months so that they could eat well and strengthen.

I suppose that means the dutch were holocausted too, with the deaths of that? Or is it rather a simple tier system of making sure theres enough food for military>civilians>foreign civilians>camp detainees?

Your argument here seems to be towards jews dying, not toward jews being targeted for genocide. And it's irrelevant as you were supposed to defend open air cremation, using fuel for that during a fuel shortage, or underestimating the vast amount of deforestation that would have been necessary to do it with wood, which also none of the accounts about them claim as far as I've read them.

Also I'm not following every of your links. They give a kind of call script as they give to telemarketers "if they find flaws in your arguments, just say they are nitpicking!". In telemarketing those calling scripts are a way to brute force against any reasonable protestations, and it's one of the reasons people hate telemarketers because of the artificiality as well as the forceful nature.

I'm not following a link for someone else to make your argument for you. Use it links for sources or facts, but make your own arguments. If I want to read disingenuous calling scripts I can just type holocaust denial into google and receive a hundred such scripts.

So you are sticking to open air cremation with wood and gasoline as being the main way how bodies were disposed? Are you sure?

You hear about the time the Nazis would convert 30 tons of potatoes to fuel a single v-2 launch? in late war with the country in the midst of a food crisis. Makes you wonder if the whole rocket program ever really existed.

If the german rocket program was
1. Still wielded as a political cudgel
2. illegal to question in most countries
3. Still being used to harass organisations for millions of dollars even a year or two ago
4. Resulted in as many propaganda films per year as nazi germans made about jews during their reign, except for 8 decades

Then yeah, it would be worth looking into at the very least how real that rocket program was and why you can only talk about it on an anonymous tard gossip forums, rather than in academic halls.

 

[Chugger]

Yes, in the last stretches of war, dutch civilians were starving too, it was called the hungerwinter. People resorted to eating bark, turnips, everytype of plant and root. A lot of trees and wood in public areas in cities had been stripped for wood fuel to stay warm.

After the war thousands of kids were shipped to sweden and denmark to host families for a couple of months so that they could eat well and strengthen.

I suppose that means the dutch were holocausted too, with the deaths of that? Or is it rather a simple tier system of making sure theres enough food for military>civilians>foreign civilians>camp detainees?

Your argument here seems to be towards jews dying, not toward jews being targeted for genocide. And it's irrelevant as you were supposed to defend open air cremation, using fuel for that during a fuel shortage, or underestimating the vast amount of deforestation that would have been necessary to do it with wood, which also none of the accounts about them claim as far as I've read them.

Also I'm not following every of your links. They give a kind of call script as they give to telemarketers "if they find flaws in your arguments, just say they are nitpicking!". In telemarketing those calling scripts are a way to brute force against any reasonable protestations, and it's one of the reasons people hate telemarketers because of the artificiality as well as the forceful nature.

I'm not following a link for someone else to make your argument for you. Use it links for sources or facts, but make your own arguments. If I want to read disingenuous calling scripts I can just type holocaust denial into google and receive a hundred such scripts.

So you are sticking to open air cremation with wood and gasoline as being the main way how bodies were disposed? Are you sure?

Open air cremations like at Dresden, sure

I just don't get into corpse math, it ain't my thing. Anti-revisionists have addressed it, and to be honest I haven't taken the time to consider even their arguments. I think supplying millions of people with food water and shelter year after year in a hostile environment would cost much more, but that's just guesswork

Maybe if the documentary or witness case for resettlement was better I'd consider these things, but it's just not what I'm interested in.

 

[TheRetardKing]

 

[MaxPayne]

 

[Bonesjones]

Open air cremations like at Dresden, sure

View attachment 2621198

I just don't get into corpse math, it ain't my thing. Anti-revisionists have addressed it, and to be honest I haven't taken the time to consider even their arguments. I think supplying millions of people with food water and shelter year after year in a hostile environment would cost much more, but that's just guesswork

Maybe if the documentary or witness case for resettlement was better I'd consider these things, but it's just not what I'm interested in.

Lol I don't pay attention to any argument that proves me wrong so lol why would it even matter.

No one is saying they would never exist, they are saying the scale required is improbable.

Posting an open air cremation of corpses found in the bombed out ruins of a city is proving you don't have any idea of what logistics is or how they work or why its important.

 

[Lemmingwise]

it's just not what I'm interested in.

I'll still revisit your other reply when I have time for more of a driveby comment as I did the one before.

I had no idea I could just say "that argument that puts my own version of events as improbable just doesn't interest me so I'll ignore it." I've already spent at least an hour reading your links.

You won't do 15 minutes of math and 5 minutes of research about cremation just to think about the unreasonability of what you had just said?

 

[Gravityqueen4life]

woke up today hearing our prime minster crying about how awful the Holocaust (the biggest tragedy in human history. hia words) was and how we need to stop the hate for jews (funny how he dosent mention who is doing all the hating). you fucking bommer! there so many other things we have to deal with in todays society and you still want to cry about an event that happened 80 fucking years ago! i know we should not forget history but move the fuck on! we got more important things going on and here you are, butthurt other world leaders wont travel cross country and cry about the jews with you. im so glad you gonna be out of office soon even if you gonna be replaced by a women who wont change the status-quo.