The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

Reading the Posen speech, there isn't really anything directly referencing the extermination of jews. There's a reference to being next to corpses but that is more a call of the soldiers seeing their brothers fall and still remaining strong. The part about extermination has always been referenced as a translation issue, since why would he talk in code about expulsion when they were killing them?

Its more of the same dumb strategy of taking someone saying something and twisting to find the worst possible interpretation.

Even later on they show he's the talking about Partisans.

 

[Chugger]

Reading the Posen speech, there isn't really anything directly referencing the extermination of jews. There's a reference to being next to corpses but that is more a call of the soldiers seeing their brothers fall and still remaining strong. The part about extermination has always been referenced as a translation issue, since why would he talk in code about expulsion when they were killing them?

Its more of the same dumb strategy of taking someone saying something and twisting to find the worst possible interpretation.

Even later on they show he's the talking about Partisans.

Heinrich Himmler's Speech at Poznan (Posen)

On October 4, 1943, Reischsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler gave a speech to a secret meeting of SS officers, in Poznan, Poland. In this speech, he spoke frankly a...

youtu.be

He uses the word kill--'umbringen', which is unambiguous

Original	Translated
... wir hatten die Pflicht unserem Volk gegenüber das zu tun, dieses Volk, das uns umbringen wollte, umzubringen.	... we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.

 

[byuu]

The part about extermination has always been referenced as a translation issue, since why would he talk in code about expulsion when they were killing them?

What translation issue? He literally says "die Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes". Ausrottung is always a complete destruction or elimination of something.

 

[Chugger]

There was no motive for keeping it secret once the first atom bomb had been dropped. Then the whole world knew. But before that, hundredthousand people working on it, most not aware of what they were working on, and effectively kept quiet.

Yes I agree, that makes the the two cases incomparable really

It's pretty easy to keep things quiet, far easier than people think. Especially if you are willing to make one or two examples of people if things threaten to be undermined.

But saying you were at a resettlement camp in Russia in 1943 would not contradict the Holocaust story anymore than saying you were at Theresienstadt, or that the nice Nazis let you swim in a pool or visit the library. Unless that camp had a population into the millions--a resettlement city?

I am probably going to take a look at these things, but the fact that you just portrayed "nazis confessing to these things" and then what they actually confess to being at odds with your own position (5.3 million is what you said iirc), shows me that I can't trust you to portray things accurately.

I am also going to have to establish what language it was written in by whom, and what intermediaries there were, unless it's from an opposing side book that you're quoting, where at least I can be sure there isn't tampering in your affirmative position (so I can trust the affirmative things in them).

I think you're being unfair here, since I was responding to another post which voiced holocaust in very vague terms.

For the record, I don't think there's a big difference between a little over 5 million and 3 million. I definitely wouldn't be in this thread if you guys believed 3 million had been murdered indiscriminately and in top down fashion. What interests me is a lot of people seem convinced there was no systematic plan of mass murder, perhaps just a few unsanctioned atrocities--IMO a very 'extreme' position given the evidence

But I do sincerely commend you for going out and doing independent research on these sources. The Eichmann 'memoirs', which are explicitly exterminationist, were published by Druffel Verlag, a far right German company with revisionist ties. I'm not sure if that counts as the "opposing side"

 

[Bonesjones]

Heinrich Himmler's Speech at Poznan (Posen)

On October 4, 1943, Reischsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler gave a speech to a secret meeting of SS officers, in Poznan, Poland. In this speech, he spoke frankly a...

youtu.be

He uses the word kill--'umbringen', which is unambiguous

Original	Translated

Glad you included the full context there. Since he's talking about it being ok to kill the jews since they were killing Germans. But it's not ok to enrich yourself because that's not morally correct. That doesn't change anything does it?

Its like people pouring over Trump tweets, trying to find the worst possible conclusion you could reach from his wording. Its all devoid of anything but the viewers own charitability.

This is why I stick to the hard evidence. Either produce the bodies or shut up.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The part about extermination has always been referenced as a translation issue, since why would he talk in code about expulsion when they were killing them?

This is correct, ausrottung means either uprooting or extermination, although recently translation services online changed to only give the extermination translation. There is one or twobthat still give the old one.

The quoted that are added to a spoken speech is intentionally deceptive.

Auschaltung is a similar translation that makes me cynical. English translation:


Okay elimination.

What about the dutch one?



"Uitzetten" is a synonym for both "turning off" or "moving out", which suggests uprooting and evacuation, like the rest of his speech. No meaning for elimination.

The portuguese translation has no meaning for elimination either:



I don't know any other languages but I encourage other kiwis to check the translation.

Seems like a particular bit of war propaganda that you're falling for @Chugger

And the umbringen is debatable as he was just saying that germans who steal from jews to enrich themselves should be killed. That idea made him so angry it made him shout. So then when he defends killing he's talking about the people who he just said will be killed: german thieves.

It is all so tiresome.

 

[Chugger]

What translation issue? He literally says "die Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes". Ausrottung is always a complete destruction or elimination of something.

Ausrottung is actually ambigious in a sense. This term was used by Nazis in public speeches heard across the world that definitely were not interpreted as hard evidence that the Jews were going to be mass murdered. Though of course it can also mean killing.

The word umbringen, on the other hand, is not ambiguous at all. But on top of all this it is clear from the context of Himmler's speech that he is talking about murder. "A page of glory never mentioned, and never to mentioned" Why did they want to keep the resettlement of millions of Jews (evacuation/extermination apparently) a secret from the world?

And the umbringen is debatable as he was just saying that germans who steal from jews to enrich themselves should be killed. That idea made him so angry it made him shout. So then when he defends killing he's talking about the people who he just said will be killed: german thieves.

You're confusing me with the other person again, see my above post.

... we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.

So Himmler is saying the German thieves (who are soldiers or SS members) want to kill the German people?

 

[Lemmingwise]

The word umbringen, on the other hand, is not ambiguous at all.

He just spent time talking about SS people that should be killed if they steal even a single mark, which made him so angry he shouted about it. He's saying these german thieves deserve to be killed.

So Himmler is saying the German thieves (who are soldiers or SS members) want to kill the German people?

Yes, he's saying that it would infect the german people with the same disease if they start to act succumb to the same behaviour as jews. He equates that with the death of his ideal of the german people.

I don't know if you've ever worked in Germany, but they are incredibly anal retentive people. You get someone's title or name wrong by a letter and they'll send it back unread for you to correct. I mean the Dutch find them anal retentive and that is saying something.

 

[Bonesjones]

Ausrottung is actually ambigious in a sense. This term was used by Nazis in public speeches heard across the world that definitely were not interpreted as hard evidence that the Jews were going to be mass murdered. Though of course it can also mean killing.

The word umbringen, on the other hand, is not ambiguous at all. But on top of all this it is clear from the context of Himmler's speech that he is talking about murder. "A page of glory never mentioned, and never to mentioned" Why did they want to keep the resettlement of millions of Jews (evacuation/extermination apparently) a secret from the world?

Hes talking about Jewish influence on the moral foundation of German society, if you'd pay any attention. He wants German society to be so moral, just and upright that the idea of Jewish corruption wouldn't even be thought of.

 

[Chugger]

He just spent time talking about SS people that should be killed if they steal even a single mark, which made him so angry he shouted about it. He's saying these german thieves deserve to be killed.

I know that, but what he says is

... we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.

So the German thieves want to kill the German people?

 

[byuu]

Ausrottung is actually ambigious in a sense.

How? Tell me any other way you can interpret "Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes".

 

[Bonesjones]

I know that, but what he says is



So the German thieves want to kill the German people?

Are you actually this stupid or pretending to be?

 

[Chugger]

Hes talking about Jewish influence on the moral foundation of German society, if you'd pay any attention. He wants German society to be so moral, just and upright that the idea of Jewish corruption wouldn't even be thought of.

"Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of."

What exactly is the 'glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of'"?

 

[Bonesjones]

"Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of."

What exactly is the 'glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of'"?

Good job cutting out all the previous context which makes it obvious, is anything you post not disingenuous?

 

[Chugger]

How? Tell me any other way you can interpret "Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes".

We're going to destroy their power, influence, etc

That's the way it was read by most of the rest of the world. But in Himmler's Posen speech the meaning is clear, just like it is clear for elimination/evacuation

Good job cutting out all the previous context which makes it obvious, is anything you post not disingenuous?

Sorry here's the full "previous" context and a bit after

"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all swines, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble-rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916 and 17"

So what is the 'glorious chapter'?

 

[Bonesjones]

Sorry here's the full "previous" context and a bit after

"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all swines, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble-rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916 and 17"

So what is the 'glorious chapter'?

I literally answered it already.

 

[Chugger]

I literally answered it already.

so 'the glorious page never mentioned and never to be mentioned' is the removal of Jews and Jewish power from German society... uhhh just about everybody inside Germany and outside knew this happened so why the big secret?

 

[Bonesjones]

so 'the glorious page never mentioned and never to be mentioned' is the removal of Jews and Jewish power from German society... uhhh just about everybody inside Germany and outside knew this happened so why the big secret?

Its not a secret, he's saying history will see the rise of a moral German people free from the taint of Jewish ideology. They won't remember the Weimer Republic because it will be such a minor footnote that it's not even worth remembering.

Again all you do is pick through sentences and find the least charitable interpretation because you have literally nothing else.

 

[byuu]

We're going to destroy their power, influence, etc

Then you'd need to say something like "Ausrottung des Judentum", "Ausrottung der jüdischen Einflüße", etc..
This is completely unambiguous.

And what public speech used "Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes"?

 

[Chugger]

Then you'd need to say something like "Ausrottung des Judentum", "Ausrottung der jüdischen Einflüße", etc..
This is completely unambiguous.

The world, apparently, did not read these statements as meaning the Jews were being mass murdered

Hitler 30.1.42: "We are fully aware that this war can end either in the extermination of the Aryan people or in the disappearance of Jewry from Europe. I said as much before the German Reichstag on September 1, 1939. I wish to avoid making hasty prophesies, but this war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the extermination of the European-Aryan people; instead, the result of this war will be the annihilation of Jewry. For the first time, the old, truly Jewish rule of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” will obtain"

Hitler, 24.2.42: "Today the idea of our National Socialist, and that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great and powerful states, and my prophecy will find its fulfillment, that through this war Aryan humankind will not be annihilated, but the Jew will be exterminated. Whatever the struggle may bring with it or however long it may last, this will be its final result. And only then, with the removal of these parasites, will a long period of understanding between nations, and with it true peace, come upon the suffering world"

By the end of 1942, it was pretty clear to most people what was happening though based on other evidence. I'm not a German speaker or too familiar with the language, I'm just relying on the effect his word had.

But in the Posen speech, with context, the meaning of extermination, elimination, evacuation, is very clear

Its not a secret, he's saying history will see the rise of a moral German people free from the taint of Jewish ideology. They won't remember the Weimer Republic because it will be such a minor footnote that it's not even worth remembering.

Again all you do is pick through sentences and find the least charitable interpretation because you have literally nothing else.

Whatever bro

I want to also mention a very difficult subject . . . before you, with complete candor. It should be discussed amongst us, yet nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them—about which we have never spoken, and never will speak. That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone . . . shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people.


It is one of those things that is easily said. [quickly] “The Jewish people is being exterminated,”

every Party member will tell you “perfectly clear, it’s part of our plans, we’re eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter.” [less quickly] And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. [mockingly] They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew. [a few people laugh] And . . . [audience cough] [carefully] . . . none of them has seen it, has endured it. Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 are there or when there are 1000. And . . . to have seen this through and—with the exception of human weakness—to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.