The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

We need a new Holocaust

Go to China then.

 

[PeggieBigCock]

Go to China then.

No I’m talking about New York Jews specifically

 

[ManInTheBlarms]

The only reason I'm skeptical about the official account of the holocaust itself is because.

1. Today several countries threaten jailtime for denying it or even contesting some parts of it. No other genocide in human history is treated that way.

2. It would take far more manpower and infrastructure to kill millions and hide the evidence, than to simply keep them alive. How is a country supposed to wage a World War alone with such resources devoted to killing millions? It's lunacy. Not to say that atrocities didn't happen, its war, this will happen. But I repeatedly hear the line "Oh the Germans are so efficient they would kill them all". The most efficient thing is to keep them alive.

1. This is an effort by most countries to punish and keep down nazis as HEAVILY as they possibly can after ww2. I'm pretty sure the thought here is that if they can't criminalize the political beliefs directly, they'll just criminalize the things that go along with them under the guise of human rights.

2. Most camps were work camps. Overwhelmingly, these people were enslaved and simply worked to death because they had an endless supply of new slaves coming in. The death camps that did exist, I'm guessing, were either there to kill off those who couldn't work or because the ideology was just that schizophrenic.

 

[ManInTheBlarms]

name one.

https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/liberators#h115 Here's a massive collection of sources of eyewitness accounts from all over the internet and a shitton of books. Inb4 "not trusting the holocaust museum" if your theory says that people who study the holocaust aren't reliable sources on the holocaust then I'm afraid very little can be done to convince you.

 

[Chugger]

the excesses of war

Read the Hitler decision being transmitted Army Group North: "The Führer is determined to remove the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. After the defeat of Soviet Russia there can be no interest in the continued existence of this large urban area."

This has nothing to do with the war. The Himmler document I also posted earlier reveals cold hearted German plans to destroy the cultural and intellectual existence of an all-white country. These whites (Polish people of non "good blood") were viewed by Himmler and Hitler as little more than a well-fed manual labor force

This population will, as a people of laborers without leaders, be at our disposal and will furnish Germany annually with migrant workers and with workers for special tasks (roads, quarries, buildings): they themselves will have more to eat and more to live on than under the Polish regime; and, though they have no culture of their own, they will, under the strict, consistent, and just leadership of the German people, be called upon to help work on its everlasting cultural tasks and its buildings and perhaps, as far as the amount of heavy work is concerned, will be the ones who make the realization of these tasks possible.

Again, this anti-white racism has nothing to do with the war. I'd also argue (based on this document alone) that these people were going to be treated worse than how almost all colonial powers treated their non-white subjects, or how blacks were treated under Jim Crow

This statement by Morgen (full quote and context here) sums up how most Nazi soldiers viewed and treated their fellow whites. It was based on the idea that in the future (well after the war was over, so again no connection there) the native population was going to be extirpated and annihilated

In addition, there is among our men a widespread mental attitude to the effect that the eastern region, as an area for future German immigration, is to be freed up for the Germans through the extirpation (Ausrottung) and annihilation (Vernichtung) of the native population, and that the population is therefore to be tolerated as a currently necessary evil and treated as such.

It's a bit humiliating to see so many WNs simping for these vociferous anti white racists

 

[mrolonzo]

1. This is an effort by most countries to punish and keep down nazis as HEAVILY as they possibly can after ww2. I'm pretty sure the thought here is that if they can't criminalize the political beliefs directly, they'll just criminalize the things that go along with them under the guise of human rights.

2. Most camps were work camps. Overwhelmingly, these people were enslaved and simply worked to death because they had an endless supply of new slaves coming in. The death camps that did exist, I'm guessing, were either there to kill off those who couldn't work or because the ideology was just that schizophrenic.

Why are you just guessing? Why would nazis work people to death? That's entirely inefficient and in any case the documents clearly state that they were not being worked to death. In fact they were to be made healthy and only given work loads they could handle and that they were too be given adequate days off.

https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/liberators#h115 Here's a massive collection of sources of eyewitness accounts from all over the internet and a shitton of books. Inb4 "not trusting the holocaust museum" if your theory says that people who study the holocaust aren't reliable sources on the holocaust then I'm afraid very little can be done to convince you.

This weak evidence is all you've got. A collection of stories from interested parties and poorly written research. But please, go ahead and quote something.

 

[Mothra1988]

The Holocaust happened, and surprise, Hitler wasn't a good guy after all. The end.

 

[Shidoen]

The Holocaust happened, and surprise, Hitler wasn't a good guy after all. The end.

But he had diversity hires!

 

[ManInTheBlarms]

Why are you just guessing? Why would nazis work people to death? That's entirely inefficient and in any case the documents clearly state that they were not being worked to death. In fact they were to be made healthy and only given work loads they could handle and that they were too be given adequate days off.








This weak evidence is all you've got. A collection of stories from interested parties and poorly written research. But please, go ahead and quote something.

"The documents clearly state they were not being worked to death" I mean yeah the people working people to death would have a vested interest in saying they aren't. As for 'weak evidence' someone asked to name ONE. That's a list of like, 50+.

 

[mrolonzo]

"The documents clearly state they were not being worked to death" I mean yeah the people working people to death would have a vested interest in saying they aren't. As for 'weak evidence' someone asked to name ONE. That's a list of like, 50+.

The documents aren't just saying they aren't. They are pre 45 documents literally ordering SS soldiers on exactly how they are to be treated I.e. Good food, tea/ coffee, regular and reasonable work hours, days off.

Not someone....me. I asked to you name one. Should be easy right? How about Filip Mueller, who claimed to be literally in the gas chamber. Will that do as an example?

The Holocaust happened, and surprise, Hitler wasn't a good guy after all. The end.

To be fair. This is literally one of their best arguments..

 

[Lemmingwise]

These whites (Polish people of non "good blood") were viewed by Himmler and Hitler as little more than a well-fed manual labor force

This really isn't anything out of the ordinary. There are plenty of people with power today who think like that.

"The documents clearly state they were not being worked to death" I mean yeah the people working people to death would have a vested interest in saying they aren't.

Wouldn't a nation of irrational antisemites who want them all dead, have incentive to lie exactly in the opposite direction?

 

[Chugger]

This really isn't anything out of the ordinary. There are plenty of people with power today who think like that.

You think Germans paying 86.8 billion in reparations over 70 years qualifies them as glorified slaves? mrolonzo's claim about Nazis spending trillions to keep the Jews healthy on the other hand . . .

 

[Lemmingwise]

You think Germans paying 86.8 billion in reparations over 70 years qualifies them as glorified slaves? mrolonzo's claim about Nazis spending trillions to keep the Jews healthy on the other hand . . .

Another disingenuous response that made no attempt to understand what he's replying to.

You tried making a point about how they viewed things, about destroying cultural and intellectual existence of a country, something we have seen happen in countless of countries since. Here we have the former president of the european parliament voicing exactly the same kind of viewpoint. But you ignore it. Why? Why do you ignore this comparison?

I have given my own answer as to why you do so, repeatedly. But how do you defend yourself? What is your personal motivation for ignoring a point like this?

 

[Chugger]

Here we have the former president of the european parliament voicing exactly the same kind of viewpoint.

It's a second hand quote so no context. I have no idea how literally he means it, so all we have is reparations data

 

[mrolonzo]

Read the Hitler decision being transmitted Army Group North: "The Führer is determined to remove the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. After the defeat of Soviet Russia there can be no interest in the continued existence of this large urban area."

This has nothing to do with the war. The Himmler document I also posted earlier reveals cold hearted German plans to destroy the cultural and intellectual existence of an all-white country. These whites (Polish people of non "good blood") were viewed by Himmler and Hitler as little more than a well-fed manual labor force



Again, this anti-white racism has nothing to do with the war. I'd also argue (based on this document alone) that these people were going to be treated worse than how almost all colonial powers treated their non-white subjects, or how blacks were treated under Jim Crow

This statement by Morgen (full quote and context here) sums up how most Nazi soldiers viewed and treated their fellow whites. It was based on the idea that in the future (well after the war was over, so again no connection there) the native population was going to be extirpated and annihilated


It's a bit humiliating to see so many WNs simping for these vociferous anti white racists

Good lord, the axis already had slav nations within it. So this charge is defeated just on that alone.


However this codoh post is instructive;




"
Regarding the reorganisation of the Eastern Territories, the so-called "Generalplan Ost" doesn't support any case for "extermination" or "mass murder", quite the opposite. In-fact nothing in the documents suggests any attempt to "exterminate" the Slavs. One of the oft-quoted architects of "Generalplan-Ost", Erhard Wetzel, explicitly refutes any such interpretation. See for example an excerpt from the "Statement and thoughts of Dr. Erhard Wetzel on the General Plan East of the Reichsführer SS" dated April 27, 1942:

"c. There are many ways that lead to the destruction of the biological strength of a people. In cultural countries, poor economic conditions often cause serious declines in birth rates. Let us recall the declining birth rates in the Reich before 1933. Sometimes, however, very great prosperity seems to lead to the same result (cf. Sweden, USA, the better-off strata of the Empire). In the primitive population of the Soviet Union, the years of hardship under the Bolshevik regime obviously did not bring about a reduction in the birth rate. At most, industrialization in the last years and the associated urbanization led to some reduction. Nevertheless, Russian birth rates were still far higher than German ones. The goal of a German population policy in the Russian area will have to be to bring the birth rates to a level below the German birth rate. Incidentally, the same should also apply to the extremely high-birth-rate Caucasus region, and to some extent later also to Ukraine. First of all, there is an interest in increasing the number of Ukrainians as a counterweight against the Russians. However, this must not lead to the Ukrainians later taking the place of the Russians. In order to [not] come to an increase of the population in the Eastern territories which is unbearable for us, it is urgently necessary to refrain from all the means in the East which we have used in the Reich to increase the birth rates. We must pursue a deliberately negative population policy in the areas concerned. Through propaganda measures, especially through the
press, radio, cinema, handbills, short brochures, educational lectures, and the like, the population must be persuaded again and again how harmful it is to have many children. It must be pointed out once to the costs, which make children, then to what one could have acquired for it. The great dangers to women's health that can result from having children can be pointed out, and so on. Along with this propaganda, a generous propaganda for contraceptives must go into the country. An industry for such means must be specially created. Neither the promotion and distribution of contraceptives nor abortion should be punishable. The establishment of abortion institutes should be encouraged. For example, midwives or nurses can be trained as abortionists. The more properly abortions are performed, the more the population will gain confidence in them. The physician, too, must of course be authorized to perform these acts, without there being any question here of a violation of the medical code of ethics. Voluntary sterilization is also to be propagated. Infant mortality must not be combated. Education of the mother about infant care and childhood diseases must also not take place. Attempts must be made to minimize the training of Russian physicians in these areas. Children's homes and the like must not be supported. In addition to these negative measures in the field of health, divorce should not be made particularly difficult. No special measures should be taken for illegitimate children. Tax breaks for large families, child allowances, and all measures that favor large families must be avoided. If the new agricultural regulations stipulate that the number of family members or able-bodied family members may be taken into account in the division of land where business reasons require it, this is of course justified at the present time, when it is important to make agriculture in the East as intensive as possible. However, whether such provisions should be adhered to later seems doubtful in view of the fact that they encourage child wealth. It is obvious that the systematic application of the above-mentioned means will lead to considerable success in weakening the Russian body politic. At the same time, we are quite capable of intervening at any time in the event of too radical a decline in the birth rate, which would put the very existence of Russianness on the line, by cancelling this or that measure. In any case, we can have no interest in a complete biological annihilation of Russianness as long as we ourselves are not able to fill the space with our people. For otherwise other peoples would occupy this space, which would likewise not be in our interest. Our aim in carrying out these measures is only to weaken Russianness to such an extent that it can no longer overgrow us with the mass of its people. If we have converted the mass of the Russian people to the idea of the one-child or two-child system, we should have achieved the goal we set. How far we thereby weaken the White Race in view of the dangers from Asia is another question. Perhaps a positive population policy in the Siberian area, which is not dangerous for us here, is the right balance. For us Germans, the only thing that matters is to weaken Russianness to such an extent that it is no longer in a position to endanger Germany's claim to leadership in the European area. The paths outlined above bring us closer to this goal. However, it must also be remembered that a concentration of the masses in industrial cities is undoubtedly a more suitable means of limiting population increase than if the bulk of the population were to sit in the flat countryside. For the propaganda and enlightenment mentioned above can be carried out much more easily in cities than in the countryside, especially when one thinks of the vast spaces of the East."

Czeslaw Madajczyk (ed.), Vom Generalplan Ost zum Generalsiedlungsplan (München: K.G. Saur Verlag, 1994), Doc. 16, pp. 73-75.



The harshness of his propositions cannot be denied. But this plan outright refutes any claims that "Generalplan Ost" was a plan to "exterminate Slavs", in-fact the document (as you will notice) that the Germans would intervene to prevent a too "rapid decline in the birth-rate" and it was not their intent to wipe out "Russianness". In context, this was a plan proposed at the height of Operation Barbarossa, a time of intense hostility, to which end the future was still uncertain. What was proposed was a method of population control which would span decades and served the goal of cementing German power in the newly acquired eastern territories, not the killing of its inhabitants. Contrast this to the undoubtedly genocidal plans of American Jews towards the Germans. This is tame in comparison, particularly because the German territorial solution was not based on the goal of mass murder."

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14468&p=104672&hilit=General+plan+ost#p104672

 

[Chugger]

mrolonzo, where did I say Generalplan OST was necessarily going to include killing Slavs in death camps? This measure was suggested by some high ranking Nazis during the war, but they ultimately decided against it because it was going to be too obvious to the rest of the Polish population and they'd eventually be found out (easier with the Jews because the entire population was either being detained or killed)

Nevertheless, the Wetzel quote you posted states their overall objective in the first sentence "destruction of the biological strength of a people". Even Jim Crow era super racist southerners didn't look at black people this way. You're shilling for a group that was more anti-white than any other in history. As a white nationalist, I don't know how you can continue to justify this.

Good lord, the axis already had slav nations within it. So this charge is defeated just on that alone.

Did they consider Poland a Slav nation? This is from Keitel's notes about a meeting with Hitler, October 17, 1939 .

1. The armed forces should welcome the opportunity of avoiding having to deal with administrative questions in Poland. On principle there cannot be two administrations.

2. Poland is to be made autonomous. It will be neither a separate part of the German Reich nor an administrative district of the Reich.

3. It is not the task of the administration to turn Poland into a model province or a model state in accordance with the principles of German order; nor is it its task to put the country on a sound basis economically and financially. The Polish intelligentsia must be prevented from forming itself into a ruling class. The standard of living in the country is to remain low; it is of use to us only as a reservoir of labour. Poles too are to be used for the administration of the country. But the formation of national political groups will not be permitted.

4. The administration must work on its own responsibility and must not be dependent on Berlin. We do not want to do anything there which we do in the Reich. Responsibility does not rest with the Berlin ministries, since no German administrative unit is involved. The accomplishment of this task will involve a hard ethnic struggle [Volkstumskampf] which will not permit any legal restrictions. The methods will be incompatible with the principles which we otherwise adhere to....

5. Our interests are as follows: The territory is important to us from a military point of view as an advanced jumping-off point and can be used for the strategic concentration of troops. To that end, the railways, roads and lines of communications are to be kept in order and utilized for our purposes. Any tendencies toward stabilizing the situation in Poland are to be suppressed. ‘Polish muddle’ must be allowed to flourish. The fact that we are governing the territory should enable us to purify the Reich territory also of Jews and Polacks. Collaboration with the new Reichsgaue (Posen and West Prussia) only for resettlement purposes (compare Himmler mission). Purpose: Shrewdness and severity must be the maxims in this ethnic struggle in order to spare us from having to go into battle again on account of this country.

Jeremy Noakes & Geoffrey Pridham, Nazism 1919-1945 Volume 3: Foreign Policy, War and Racial Extermination (Liverpool University Press, 2014), Pp. 320.

Your humiliation continues. I could keep going with this shit, and as per usual, you have no evidence backing your claims.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Nevertheless, the Wetzel quote you posted states their overall objective in the first sentence "destruction of the biological strength of a people". Even Jim Crow era super racist southerners didn't look at black people this way. You're shilling for a group that was more anti-white than any other in history. As a white nationalist, I don't know how you can continue to justify this

Just change christian to white nationalist

 

[mrolonzo]

mrolonzo, where did I say Generalplan OST was necessarily going to include killing Slavs in death camps? This measure was suggested by some high ranking Nazis during the war, but they ultimately decided against it because it was going to be too obvious to the rest of the Polish population and they'd eventually be found out (easier with the Jews because the entire population was either being detained or killed)

Nevertheless, the Wetzel quote you posted states their overall objective in the first sentence "destruction of the biological strength of a people". Even Jim Crow era super racist southerners didn't look at black people this way. You're shilling for a group that was more anti-white than any other in history. As a white nationalist, I don't know how you can continue to justify this.


Did they consider Poland a Slav nation? This is from Keitel's notes about a meeting with Hitler, October 17, 1939 .



Your humiliation continues. I could keep going with this shit, and as per usual, you have no evidence backing your claims.

"Our aim in carrying out these measures is only to weaken Russianness to such an extent that it can no longer overgrow us with the mass of its people. If we have converted the mass of the Russian people to the idea of the one-child or two-child system, we should have achieved the goal we set. How far we thereby weaken the White Race in view of the dangers from Asia is another question. Perhaps a positive population policy in the Siberian area, which is not dangerous for us here, is the right balance. For us Germans, the only thing that matters is to weaken Russianness to such an extent that it is no longer in a position to endanger Germany's claim to leadership in the European area"

Guess you missed that bit.

And Poles as Slavs? Why wouldn't they?

Anyway, to quote another part of the same codoh post;

"Also it should be noted that Wetzel's proposition was the most extreme position you will find in any of the documents. According to Holocaust historian Gerald Reitlinger, the aforementioned document I quoted from was Wetzel's response to the proposition by Wolfgang Abel of the SS Race and Settlement Main Office to Germanize the Russians (The Final Solution, 1987, p. 36). This highlights that opinions differed among "Nazis", and still none proposed mass murder."


And later in the same thread;


"Several of the Axis powers were Slavic. In fact Germanies first ally in the Polish-German conflict was Slovakia. Bulgaria is another example and Yugoslavia was close to the Axis as well, with Croatia essentially becoming a client state. That said prior to the events in 1939, Germany also pursuit an alliance with Poland, with whom they actually would have had a number of interest and also economic complementary advantages. This all needs to be omitted and put into the memory whole otherwise the "Hitler-wanted-to-exterminate-anyone-except-blonde-blue-eyed-Aryan-babies".

You seem to be wanting me to defend different whites in a fight between whites. Which is similar to saying why don't you support the British over the Irish? Aren't you supposed to be pro white?

Sure im pro white, but im pro all people and races too. Which is what national socialism or nationalism itself is very much about. But let's stick to the holocaust instead of these tangents. The entire Jewish population wasn't being killed, Nazis had no reason to do that and as actual human beings, unlike many, weren't about executing innocents.

 

[Bonesjones]

I dont know why you keep responding to chugger, he didn't miss it, he just deliberately leaves out information that proves him wrong.

 

[mrolonzo]

I dont know why you keep responding to chugger, he didn't miss it, he just deliberately leaves out information that proves him wrong.

Ok. In case anyone is still believing this rubbish just so story about unverified torture and mass murders of unknown people in unknown locations with unknown remains called the holocaust here are actual nazi camp showers and in what state the inmate Jewish women were actually living.