The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[History Speaks]

Yes, earn your humanity back. Its waiting for you at a decent BMI.

Go correct the Muslims, poopskin. We already know about the Holocaust. We fought a whole war over it and everything. What was Egypt doing. Im sure the mid east was fine, it's not like al aqsa welcomed nazis and praised the final solution or anything.

Jeez, you mean he gets bigger?

lol I am so sure this guy is fat.

You should create another account and try insulting me again, if you do it in a detached way I will assume you are just making fun of me. But this is just too breathless and emotional to be anything other than personal.

I do not just use this as a default insult btw. I do not think Lemming is fat for example.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I do not just use this as a default insult btw.

You're just calling someone fat because they're calling you fat. Are you the same guy who was complaining about non-funny insults? Lol.

I do not think Lemming is fat for example.

Wrong, lol.

I'm european people fat, not american people fat like yourself.

 

[History Speaks]

My god I leave here for a few hours and the thread completely dies.

The idea that most of you will not hate watch me is laughable.

 

[Chugger]

You're attacking lack of resettlement records, because you lack forensic evidence for the burning, for the holocaust (burnt offering). And in either case it doesn't address the lack of evidence for mass gassing.

I want to return to this. Would you say the supposed lack of evidence for mass gassing/burning is a reason not to believe it happened, but this argument doesn't apply for resettlement?

To streamline things we can ignore the thousands of witness statements attesting to gassing/body destruction, and focus just on the forensic/documentary evidence, but allow for any witness statements (whether Jewish, German, or Other) in support of the alleged resettlement of millions.

 

[Lemmingwise]

To streamline things we can ignore the thousands of witness statements attesting to gassing/body destruction, and focus just on the forensic/documentary evidence, but allow for any witness statements (whether Jewish, German, or Other) in support of the alleged resettlement of millions.

?? where did I allege resettlement ??

That's your hobby horse, not mine.

 

[Chugger]

?? where did I allege resettlement ??

That's your hobby horse, not mine.

Ah well what did Himmler mean when he announced the resettlement (umsiedlung) of the Jewish population* of the General Government (Poland)?

Or the continuously described resettlement of 300k Jews in Generalbezirk Wolhynien (western Ukraine)?

* he makes some exceptions for Jews in labor camps

 

[Lemmingwise]

Ah well what did Himmler mean when he announced the resettlement (umsiedlung) of the Jewish population* of the General Government (Poland)?

Or the continuously described resettlement of 300k Jews in Generalbezirk Wolhynien (western Ukraine)?

* he makes some exceptions for Jews in labor camps

I'm not in a position where I will offer explanation for historical documents, because I am neither historian, nor in a position to verify documents. My ability to verify veracity of such documents is limited. I generally have to start with the assumption that one is true or not and see what a document might say.

This goes in both directions. I don't know whether to believe the accuracy of the red cross documents, or the accuracy of the jewish world almanac population numbers.

I know both organisations have commented on them but I dismiss these comments too and regard them more suspiciously than the documents. In an environment where there was torture and political persecution, but also the possibility of bribes or political goals being achieved, I don't regard these statements as reliable.

It's a bit like Johnson & Masters who stopped their conversion therapy, despite having very strong controls against it being coercive, willing only able to help those who came to them 100% of free will. But there was a wave of pro-gay political movement and they caught flak for offering therapy to those who preffered to not live as gay. Political movements ahave a tendency to act like a hammer and whack a mole anything that sticks out against them. The nazis were like this. And after they were defeated the americans and russians were like this. And our cosmopolitan allies were also like this.

I haven't seen forensic evidence for the resettlement of japanese internees in the US either. Despite reading a book about my grandfather being in a japanese camp, I don't have evidence of their resettlement back in the netherlands either. Despite, I suppose, their stories and me being here.

What I do know is how there wasn't a boat ordered off of japan. They simply were in japan after being liberated and had to figure out themselves how to survive and get home. Considering at least some people got home as stowaways, the documents wouldn't show their resetlement.

Europe is full of undocumented migrants now. Why would this be different in the past?

And put yourself in their shoes. If you managed to stowaway on a ship to the US, or managed to get on there legally. Would you really identify yourself as jewish after all that? Or would you say, no, I am christian/german etc? What would this mean for the records of resetlement?

That is like all the "arab" scientists of the golden age of islam, many of whom wouldn't be islamic if their country had not been conquered by islam. Same again for the "christians" of reconquista spain.

Absence of resetlement records is not proof of death. It is not proof of being gassed in gas chambers. It is not proof of being clear which regime killed them. And it is not proof for the motivation of killing, whether it is murder or not. Lack of resettlement records is not even proof of deaths being the result of killing.

I believe that there are ideologically driven people online that want to sanitize everything the german regime did, which is why I am suspicious of those that are. But I also belive that there are ideologically driven people online that want to sanitize everything about the holocaust history. For jewish people it is more essential to their identity than religion or israel. Studies have been done. Unsurprising due to the number of jewish atheists and the disagreement between cosmopolitans and israelites.

So we're dealing with a group of people who see the holocaust as a part of their identity and the result is that to them it becomes an article of faith.

And they are about as 100 times more effective than their enemies. Every western school teaches the holocaust including the known false parts and including the unknown false parts. We already saw how wikipedia and encyclopedia brittanica repeat things you agree are lies. What point really is there to mull over resettlement records in this environment?

Why don't you care about these lies in central resources? Why do you seem blind and ignorant of this political constuency? How could we ever have a real conversation about this if your own motives show you do not care about these gangsters at your side? Why persist in the mass gass meme when the evidence is against it? When the official version has been shown to be wildly wrong time and again?

 

[Bonesjones]

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8921

Just going to drop this here and let the usual suspects completely ignore it like they have been since forever.

 

[Chugger]

Why don't you care about these lies in central resources?

You're assuming I don't care. Of course it's a problem when things get misrepresented. But the lampshade stuff isn't even directly holocaust related (because victims aren't specified as Jewish), and it's not so bad anyway. American GIs collected Japanese body parts during WW2, fucked up shit like this is common in war. Actually much worse and weirder is the very very real skeleton collection, which Matthew brought up earlier.

That lampshade shit isn't pushing any needles.

On the other hand, I actually did try to get this wikipedia entry changed. it's from a document that was rejected at Nuremberg, and a much more serious historical misrepresentation in my book.

The change hasn't gone through, but you can see it is under discussion or whatever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Invasion_of_Poland#Questionable_paragraph

But I'm not going to write my fucking congressman about it. This is wikipedia.

I'm not in a position where I will offer explanation for historical documents,

Well I brought up the Himmler order to show you that I wasn't pulling 'resettlement' out of thin air.

But from the rest of your answer, I think I know what you're getting at. Mass population transfer and internment. To the best of your knowledge, and this is the hardcore denier position--the deportees were brought somewhere, it could have been camps or they could have been set free-- but details are sketchy because there aren't documents or witness testimony that can much shed light on what happened to them.

I think that's about right.

Europe is full of undocumented migrants now. Why would this be different in the past?

The problem with this, 'who knows' approach is it's not borne out by the historical record. On Rapechu's initiative, we covered the case of Transnistria, an actual resettlement that was carried out in occupied USSR territory (though under Romanian supervision). A much smaller amount of Jews were kept in the area (peak 130k) and there are reams of evidence here--census records, oral histories for each major Jewish settlement. The one book I read had quotes and figures from hundreds of different sources about all things that happened to the deportees, from summer of 1941 to liberation. Again we're dealing with 150k Jews max against supposedly 10-20x that number kept in German controlled territory.

So I don't think you can just shrug your shoulders here. As far as I know, every modern mass population transfer is evidenced to some degree. If there's no evidence of it happening, it'll never make into the history books. Unless you can get history redefined as 'what didn't happen' instead of 'what did'

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8921

Just going to drop this here and let the usual suspects completely ignore it like they have been since forever.

You should read through that thread and see what evidence they have of millions of Jews being kept in German held USSR, then report back (PS- don't use Herman Kruk's diary)

 

[Bonesjones]

Another great rebuttal by Chugger, its right up there with "no evidence for the large amounts of coal or wood required to cremate millions".

Evidence of sloppy record keeping in regards to census data is all it takes to disprove the notion that "millions" of jews disappeared magically. Since you still can't prove they terminally existed in the places you say they do.

Edit: considering you posted like 5 minutes after I did means you either didn't read the thread or were familiar and tried to do that thing when you pretend evidence you don't like doesn't exist, which you constantly do. Fucking faggot retard.

 

[Chugger]

Edit: considering you posted like 5 minutes after I did means you either didn't read the thread or were familiar and tried to do that thing when you pretend evidence you don't like doesn't exist

it doesn't exist. i've read the thread. i've also read much more scholarly revisionists on the subject, and they don't have evidence concerning the deported Jews either

 

[History Speaks]

lol are we actually bringing up the "Red Cross" stuff again that, as I explained days ago, is a fake denier document deliberately mistranslated from a German gov document that makes no claim to listing all Jewish deaths in the camps (only the minority of Jews that were registered prisoners, i.e. excluding all Jewish death from the Reinhardt camps and the vast majority of deaths from Auschwitz.)

And then an almanac, which did no original research and was just reprinting outdated old numbers?

Your suggestion that we would trust either such source - one proven fake document, one almanac that did no original research or studies, and was apparently just reprinting old data from 1939 - over the Germans' own meticulously gathered data, rooting in contemporaneous censuses of Polish and other Jewish populations, along with postwar academic studies by the Allied governments and independent researchers, can only be explained by bias.

My god the level of desperation deniers have.

 

[Bonesjones]

Hey look its the same old song and dance.

 

[JohnDoe]

Hey look its the same old song and dance.

"There is no confirming evidence that positively demonstrates every detail of a position I assigned to you, therefore you are wrong and I am right."
"Uh, that's cool and all, but then where is your positive evidence proving your thesis?"
"There is no evidence, therefore you can't disprove my thesis."
"You just said a second ago that a lack of positive, detailed evidence demonstrates probable falsity, so how can you-"
"SHUT UP IDIOT, THERE WAS NEVER A MOON RESETTLEMENT AND YOU'LL NEVER PROVE YOUR CONSPIRACY THEORY, RETARD!"

 

[Chugger]

"There is no confirming evidence that positively demonstrates every detail of a position I assigned to you, therefore you are wrong and I am right."
"Uh, that's cool and all, but then where is your positive evidence proving your thesis?"
"There is no evidence, therefore you can't disprove my thesis."
"You just said a second ago that a lack of positive, detailed evidence demonstrates probable falsity, so how can you-"

Yeah the biggest difference between the orthodox and revisionist narratives is the large amount of positive evidence backing the former, and the absence of positive evidence for the latter

If you're interested in looking at the documentary evidence for mass gassing, you should start at the beginning, which would be the Wetzel letter and Gas Van documents of 41/42

Contemporary German Documents on Homicidal Gas Vans

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

 

[History Speaks]

You are wasting your time with this one, Chugger. JohnDoe is probably thicker than even Bones.

When the deniers were doing their cremation bit (as usual, their arguments were drawn from the image boards, but presented as science) the other day, he declared that - when burning a bunch of bodies of 70 pounds - the minimum amount of fuel you would need is 4901450kj per body on average, which equates to 490 pounds of coal on average.

Nothing else can change this - not whether the cremas have been running all day and heat has built up, not whether multiple bodies have been burnt at once. That is the MINIMUM. Because science.

When I pointed out, by the way, that if you cremate multiple bodies at once, it will reduce the average amount of energy you need to cremate a body (meaning the total amount of energy divided by the number of corpses), he erroneously thought I was saying that an individual cadaver burns faster if another one is next to it, and took this as a major btfo.

(Obviously it will take more energy to burn two bodies together than it takes to burn one body. But burning multiple bodies at once will require less energy than burning each of them individually in seperate sessions. Thus, burning multiple at once will reduce the total amount of fuel needed, and reduce the mean or average amount of fuel needed per body, since the mean or average is calculated by dividing the total fuel used by the number of cadavers, and less total fuel will have been used if you are burning bodies together.)

 

[Chugger]

You are wasting your time with this one, Chugger. JohnDoe is probably thicker than even Bones.

I vastly prefer JohnDoe to Bones. He's funny. Still thinking about Sheila Shekelstein 's mammoth titters

 

[History Speaks]

Chugger - Out of curiosity, what are your politics? Are you like Eric Hunt - far right, but smart enough to realize denial is dumb?

 

[Chugger]

Chugger - Out of curiosity, what are your politics? Are you like Eric Hunt - far right, but smart enough to realize denial is dumb?

Closer to far left. I'm no racist but I've been talking to deniers on kiwifarms so long, whenever these guys are even vaguely anti semitic I just get warm and fuzzy inside

 

[potato in mah painus]

Closer to far left. I'm no racist but I've been talking to deniers on kiwifarms so long, whenever these guys are even vaguely anti semitic I just get warm and fuzzy inside

Warm and fuzzy because you accomplished thread shitting for an entire year without earning a ban. All you did was reinforce the holohoax as written in the books is a lie for some of us, and no additional debating from you is going to change that opinion. So congrats, I hope the paycheck you got for a entire year was worth setting your bosses cause farther back (for context for those of you tuning in, he admitted to being a paid shill early last year).